[RahulNagaraj]

According to a media report, BMW could offer hydrogen fuel-cell powertrains as a 'no-cost option' across its electric car range from 2035.

As per reports, a new compact hydrogen fuel tank technology allows the German carmaker to package hydrogen storage in vehicle platforms designed for both energy sources. Suppliers of BMW have been hard at work producing a number of small tanks which can be positioned in multiple areas within the chassis otherwise used for battery storage. While retaining the same chassis strength, the small tanks will replace the two large hydrogen storage tanks as seen on the current iX5 Hydrogen prototype. In total, the smaller tanks will even be able to store the same 6kg of hydrogen as the current version.



The new storage technique, combined with the fact that FCEVs are much cheaper to recycle compared to BEVs, allows BMW the possibility of offering fuel cell power as an alternative for almost the same price.

The first BMW fuel-cell powered EV will be a variant of the iX electric SUV. The German carmaker is currently running a pilot production run of its iX5 Hydrogen prototype, with series production expected to start sometime before 2030.

Source: AutoExpress

Link to Team-BHP news

[SKC-auto]

So basically it means, our fuel cell cars are of the same price as our EVs from 2035?

[Shresth_EV]

Last I checked, FCEVs were costlier due to the tech (platinum-palladium alloy in the fuel cell and exquisite tank lining made of Kevlar-carbon fibre for strength) and not due to the tank design.

The split tank sounds similar to the iCNG stuff being marketed by Tata nowadays, and seems to be purely space saving technology, not cost saving — if anything, my math lessons tell me that splitting tanks from one large tank to multiple small tanks actually increases the total surface area, thus, the total material required to build the tank.

Consequently this change is increasing material costs for the tank, not decreasing it. To demonstrate, Mirai has 3x tanks of 40L each. If assuming a tank dimension of 20cm radius and 32cm height (which would come to 40L for each tank) the surface area of the three tanks is around 6500cm^2 each, or 19500cm^2 for total 120L worth of tanks.

Had we used a single tank of 96cm length instead of 3x 32cm long tanks, the surface area would only be just 14600cm^2. That’s 33% increase in material for split tanks. Of course, 95cm long tank would be impractical so that’s that, but you’re surely not saving money by splitting tanks. You’re only saving space.

As for “no-cost-option”, Toyota literally handed out cards loaded with “15000km of hydrogen” complimentary filling with Mirai, yet no one seems to be buying it. It’s so expensive post the “jolly days” that one might as well not buy it — 6kg tankful @ $17/kg is not exactly cheap for a 600km range. (~₹15/km or 27cent/mi)

Vehicle acquisition cost was never a problem — there are many EVs above $60K but Toyota made Mirai available at that price yet it didn’t sell. Something tells me that vehicle costs are not even the primary problem with FCEVs

[electric_eel]

Originally Posted by Shresth_EV

Vehicle acquisition cost was never a problem — there are many EVs above $60K but Toyota made Mirai available at that price yet it didn’t sell. Something tells me that vehicle costs are not even the primary problem with FCEVs

Ignoring the energy density issues of Hydrogen and the 70% Fuel cell overhead when compared to Li-Batteries, HEVs have serious handicap when compared to BEVs due to the supply chain issues for clean hydrogen.

Generation

Extraction of Hydrogen is energy intensive if it has to be done cleanly (through electrolysis). We might as well use the electricity directly to charge the batteries. Even better electricity can be generated "locally" rather trivially with solar panels and directly used to charge the batteries (besides more important domestic uses).

Transportation

Storage and Transportation of hydrogen is nontrivial as it needs to be done at very high pressure keeping in mind the associated safety issue (hydrogen as a gas is an explosive). Transporting electricity is rather trivial and we already have a well developed grid system for it.

Fueling convenience

One of the biggest advantage that is touted for Hydrogen cars are that fueling is fast. But is it really?

Hydrogen cars will need dedicated fuel stations. Compound this with the fact that these fuel stations are going to be capital intensive and small in numbers (at least initially). One will have to drive to the fuel station just to get a refuel.

On the other hand charging a BEV mostly happens on 16 A socket at home. In my 6 months 12,000 Kms ownership I have charged my Nexon EV only four times of roughly 30 min topups at a fast chargers. In fact BEVs are much more convenient in this aspect that ICEs. When BEVs start using even higher voltage power trains (like for example Kia EV6 which uses a 800 V power train), even fast charging times will drop.

Commoditization

Electricity is a commodity that is not just needed for BEVs. We built the infrastructure for it even before BEVs became mainstream. In fact the domestic usage of Electricity would be a bigger and more important reason to improve the grid infrastructure than wide spread EVs. The components in an EV are relatively cheap and low tech (which is good) and have been invented/developed independent of their EV application (yes there are some improvements specific to drive train motors)

Compare this with the hydrogen economy. There is hardly any domestic need for hydrogen (no we cannot use it as cooking gas due to safety considerations). There are indeed Industrial application but that is just about it. Building this supply chain network from scratch only for powering EVs does not look economically feasible.

Fuel cells have some of the most expensive components (platinum palladium etc) and have really only seen major use in space crafts. Not exactly commodity hardware eh ?

Conclusion

In conclusion HEVs need serious technological breakthrough coupled with significant economic investment on the supply chain side with no significant RoI in the near future due to lack of commoditization. On the other hand BEVs are technologically well established and provide compelling advantages over ICEs even without considering their environmental impact. So my bet is ICEs will quickly be replaced by BEVs in the near future (in my life time) because of the latter's significant advantage over the former. HEVs like Mirai will remain an engineering marvel worth placing in a Technological museum. They might also be used for joy rides to the parliament by misinformed transport ministers but that is just about the only road trip they would see.

[Shresth_EV]

Originally Posted by electric_eel

We might as well use the electricity directly to charge the batteries. (besides more important domestic uses).

True. At around 50kWh/kg by conservative estimates, FCEVs would require 3x more energy to go same distance. Model S can go 600km on 100kWh. Mirai needs equivalent of 300kWh for this (6kg at 50kWh/kg).

The lesser talked about H2 ICE the better, with half the efficiency of fuel cell, H2 ICE is 6x more energy hungry than an EV to go same distance.

One of the biggest advantage that is touted for Hydrogen cars are that fueling is fast. But is it really?

In my 6 months 12,000 Kms ownership I have charged my Nexon EV only four times of roughly 30 min topups at a fast chargers

Hydrogen filling is NOT FAST if there is a queue like cng stations. Unlike EVs, being unable to “fill” at home only leaves filling stations as the option. The avg charger will have much less “utilisation” rate than the avg H2 station. With EVs, about 5-10% is public charging. With any other fuel, it’s 100% public.

Most proponents of Hydrogen tech don’t really understand the intricacies themselves. They usually see one of those clickbait yt vids which only show the “car” part of filling, not the “station” part (not like there are many stations to film to begin with)

Current CNG and LPG infra can work with almost zero downtime due to little to no temperature delta during depressurisation of the tank when dispensing fuel from tank to vehicle. Still, it’s slower than P/D.

The temperature delta is mostly due to much higher pressure of H2 storage compared to CNG/LPG and the properties of H2. PV = nRT dictates that there WILL be a temp/pressure delta when the volume of gas in the tank changes.

The repressurisation after each refill is easily 30min for hydrogen.

Once the vehicle has been refueled, the HRS storage pressure has decreased due to the exited mass. Simulating the refilling of the storage from the initial state, i.e., 48 MPa and 15 °C, back to its nominal conditions (50 MPa), the station takes 1648 s (around 30 min). The refilling time speed strictly depends on the compressor throughput, which is considered constant and equal to 0.0062 kg/s.

Instead, the compressor cooling demand is constant ed equal to 15 kW. The reason is that the operating temperatures of the intercooler are fixed, and the mass flow suctioned by the compressor is also constant.

via ScienceDirect

The cryogenic storage, the pipelines, and dispenser are all cooled, needing electricity for this process. The net time for hydrogen refilling is about same (10min filling mentioned in this very article + 30min repressurisation process) as one would need for DCFC.

I can attest that 30-45min is the avg time I spent at highway DCFCs as well. And it’s probably around same considering the depressurisation requirements for hydrogen as well.

Only those who DON’T understand the tech intricacies, think that hydrogen is somehow advantageous on the filling speed front.

I solely blame the YouTubers who display H2 as some holy grail tech. Even seasoned YouTubers like RealEngineering and EngineeringExplained have not raised this point yet, in any of their hydrogen videos.

The components in an EV are relatively cheap and low tech (which is good) and have been invented/developed independent of their EV application

That’s quite an interesting point. Now that I think about it, at some point we will see the GaN chargers shipping with phones and laptops in DCFC market as well. Much more compact and less heat.

MOSFET SiC Inverters are already being used in grid for renewables (mostly solar PV) trickling down from EV industry. So it’s a 2 way exchange which is great for innovation.

HEVs like Mirai will remain an engineering marvel worth placing in a Technological museum. They might also be used for joy rides to the parliament by misinformed transport ministers but that is just about the only road trip they would see.

We didn’t really see anything about Gadkari’s Mirai. What happened to it? Where did he even get hydrogen filled? Is it some high school science kit to make h2 at home?

Might explain why it’s been a while since the last appearance, couldn’t make enough yet to fill the tank.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by Shresth_EV

Most proponents of Hydrogen tech don’t really understand the intricacies themselves. They usually see one of those clickbait yt vids which only show the “car” part of filling, not the “station” part (not like there are many stations to film to begin with)

There are hundreds of videos which have the same title "This engine from Toyota will kill EVs". The number of views are in millions for such videos.

I solely blame the YouTubers who display H2 as some holy grail tech. Even seasoned YouTubers like RealEngineering and EngineeringExplained have not raised this point yet, in any of their hydrogen videos.

EE has many videos showing why H2 does not work, but most people believe in Mr. Bean than actual research, they believe what they want to believe, under the guise of "I am open to all technologies but hate EVs".

https://youtu.be/AouW9_jyZck

https://youtu.be/vJjKwSF9gT8

https://youtu.be/3IPR50-soNA

We didn’t really see anything about Gadkari’s Mirai. What happened to it? Where did he even get hydrogen filled? Is it some high school science kit to make h2 at home?

Might explain why it’s been a while since the last appearance, couldn’t make enough yet to fill the tank.

I read that there is a hydrogen filling station in Faridabad, every morning the driver drops Mr. Gadkari at his office, travels some 100km in Delhi traffic to get the car refuelled, so much for a 10min refuelling.

I have a bet running for last 3 years on tbhp with someone from UK, the H2 stations came down from 11 to 3 in this time in UK.

[Shresth_EV]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

EE has many videos showing why H2 does not work, but most people believe in Mr. Bean than actual research, they believe what they want to believe, under the guise of "I am open to all technologies but hate EVs".

Oh I have no complaints as such with EE’s coverage of hydrogen. If anything, his playlist is one of the best eye openers for the delusioned folks. I think the video length scares most people away. They’d much rather have a 5min fake propaganda than 15-20min of real analysis.

It’s just that points like “fast refilling” of hydrogen are much misunderstood and misleading.

I was specifically referring to point about station downtime for refilling. It still exists only in person and on research articles like the one I linked. Nobody seems to mention, let alone be aware of the station downtime for re-pressurisation, although it’s very much real and slows down refilling.

Every morning the driver drops Mr. Gadkari at his office, travels some 100km in Delhi traffic to get the car refuelled, so much for a 10min refuelling.

I have a bet running for last 3 years on tbhp with someone from UK, the H2 stations came down from 11 to 3 in this time in UK.

The range is 600km, surely they don’t exhaust it all daily. Is it really required to visit daily?

Seems to be quite the virtue signalling attempt to go out of way to do that. And apparently us EV owners were the “masochists” to “wait 10h for charging”

Any idea about the per kg costs of commercial H2 in India?

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by Shresth_EV

I was specifically referring to point about station downtime for refilling. It still exists only in person and on research articles like the one I linked. Nobody seems to mention, let alone be aware of the station downtime for re-pressurisation, although it’s very much real and slows down refilling.

Agreed, H2 stations need some time for repressurization, only few cars can be refuelled in a day with the 2 million dollar refuelling equipment.Also, the cost of H2 in California are at 26$/kg.

The range is 600km, surely they don’t exhaust it all daily. Is it really required to visit daily?

Seems to be quite the virtue signalling attempt to go out of way to do that. And apparently us EV owners were the “masochists” to “wait 10h for charging”

Any idea about the per kg costs of commercial H2 in India?

I am not sure if they are refuelling daily or not, one thing to remember though the real world range of Mirai is <480km(<300miles not 400miles as advertised). The 300miles range is in California, the range will take a hit in cold climates, unfortunately EV haters do not mind the range drop in cold conditions for FCEVs.

[volkman10]

BMW iX5 Hydrogen Fuel Cell Prototype was submitted for testing in the UAE (United Arab Emirates)

Preliminary SpecsThe maximum power drive system is 401 hp, accelerating from 0 to 100 in 6 seconds.

The 700-bar hydrogen carbon-fibre tank has a range of 504 km. WLTP Standard








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