[Chrome6Boy]

Originally Posted by jillako

That's unfortunate. Pretty much ticks all the other boxes for me.

Can you tell me what ADAS features you want in this car and how often do you think you will use them?

The reason I am asking is that my brother recently chose to buy the MG ZS EV Executive instead of the Executive Pro which has more ADAS features.

His argument was that he will only use the blind spot indicator regularly and other features like adaptive cruise etc will almost never be used.

[v01d]

Originally Posted by Raghuwire

Correct me if I am wrong. I have read online that GM and BMW are moving to cylindrical cells. BMW is moving from prismatic to cylindrical. So, there may be some advantages to cylindrical cells right?

Found this comparison from ResearchGate.

[electric.O]

Originally Posted by i74js

The usage of LR is just a lip service. The LR is against its own variant and not something that delivers a long range on the drive. The LR is going to deliver just about 250 km that too when driven with a light foot.

Tata’s are equally lobbying against Hybrids, as they don’t have access to the technology, whereas the success of both Hybrid Innova and Hyryder (alongside Suzuki badge engineered siblings) is a testament of what customers are ready to bite into.

The way greenwashing is done by companies for some of their products, an LR moniker is exactly on the same lines. A real world 500 km range can be / should be qualified as LR and not just what a company wants to portray.



Have you driven both?

It would be good to read when have you driven Punch eV.

An electric motor is by default single speed (except Porsche Taycan); thus comparison can only happen with CVTs / IVTs or eCVTs. Usage of past perfect in a comment when the forum / page is being viewed by multiple members and non-members creates confusion.

Also, it is equally important to talk about resale. An eV misses out big time on resale; the narrative goes completely haywire when the other side of the story is not projected for discussions.

And just last point, not for Tata's but for all eV players, if the running cost is cheaper - does it warrant that the sale price of the product has to go higher? eVs cost of production is certainly not higher compared to ICEs.

Answering your questions as an EV owner -

My 25KW Tiago.EV delivers constantly 220km with AC with a heavy foot in city for 100-5%. I've driven it for 32000 Km's in the past 11 months, all in Delhi. including during scorching summers and now in icy cold winters.
So I am pretty sure 290-300 is an achievable number with punch LR 35KW with its new efficient motor and new regen algos.

Lobbying against Hybrids is a move driven purely by economics. But Suzuki and Toyota/Honda have equal lobbing power. At the end, it is for the government to decide the way forward. I'm definitely not in favor of lobbying against Hybrids.


A real world 500Km's of range is impossible to achieve with an EV in this price bracket, globally, specially when the drivetrain, battery, and most semiconductors and electronics are imported from China/Taiwan/others. (15,000 euros - 1,00,000 rmb - 15,000 usd).



Now to answer your question about comparing Punch EV to ICE, and I say this comparing my Tiago.EV to Tiago ICE. Also I drive my 2019 Civic with its mighty CVT and still would vouch for EV's.

EV's drive vastly superior and are in a different league than their similar ICE counterparts. Single speed or otherwise, The performance on tap, plus the linearity of power delivery, coupled with the super silent, vibration-free drive, gives a futuristic experience. Getting that for 12-13L is a godsend.

On the resale point, i completely agree with you. It needs a mature market to get better resale value, and i hope by next 3-4 years, when most EV's get ready for their first resale, the market is mature enough to command a better resale value.

Regards
electric.o

[jillako]

Originally Posted by Chrome6Boy

Can you tell me what ADAS features you want in this car and how often do you think you will use them?

The reason I am asking is that my brother recently chose to buy the MG ZS EV Executive instead of the Executive Pro which has more ADAS features.

His argument was that he will only use the blind spot indicator regularly and other features like adaptive cruise etc will almost never be used.

I find adaptive cruise useful in two situations - First one is stop and go traffic where one is constantly switching between the accelerator and brake. I don’t enjoy this and prefer to let the car handle it. Second one is highway driving when I am trying to maintain a set speed safely, be it by myself or following a car doing similar speed. I find myself more relaxed when the car does this well and I just need to monitor it. On an 8 hour drive, this leaves me a lot more relaxed at the destination.

Personally if I had to choose between adaptive cruise and blind spot indicators, I would choose adaptive cruise. My wife, though, would pick blind spot indicators.

[007maverick]

Thanks for the discussions on type of Batteries and the Chemistry.

The performance of Li ion Battery is driven by primarily 3 factors - Type of Chemistry, BMS (Battery Management System) and TMS (Thermal management system). Most of E -2W will have air cooled system, some introductory EV cars have started with air cooled batteries and now most of the cars in India are on liquid cooled technology.

Leading chemistries are NMC, LFP and LCA chemistries with their own pros n cons. NMC is energy dense hence lighter but needs advance cooling system, LPF is thermally stable, long cycle life but are heavier, and NCA is a kind of compromise between the two. Tesla uses NCA batteries in their cars. LFP has been made popular by Chinese, where as advanced countries called it earlier as a "cheap" chemistry but realising now that it's a very viable chemistry for demanding road-load and ambient conditions. Since it's made popular by Chinese, needless to say it's the most economical of the lot.

BMS - monitors State of Charge, State of discharge, activates cooling as needed and plays a critical role.

The form factor of the battery cell also plays a role for life and reliability of the battery pack. There are typically 3 types get used - Pouch, Cylindrical and Prismatic.

The charging time depends upon two factors. One is the battery's capacity to absorb the energy which is determined by C rates. Higher the better. You need to also have an access to DC fast charger (Batteries store energy in DC and if the charger is AC, like the one that we have for mobiles or laptops - it has to first conver AC to DC and hence it's not a fast charger) for charging the vehicle faster. If your battery capacity is 50 KW and the DC charger is 50 KW, you can get the vehicle charged in approx 60 mts provided your battery and BMS is capable to handle min 1C charging rate on CONTINUOUS basis.

Last but important is to know about the standard being used in the car for its charging port. Cars in India either have CCS / Chademo. One gets majorly used in Europe and other in Japan. There is also type 2 AC charger.

It's important to ask the sales person as how many Charging cycles the Battery will withstand and also to confirm if that number is with DC fast chargers or AC charger and in what Ambient temp conditions?

Engaging with dealership person on these aspects would help to determine how much his/her Company has invested in capability building of their front-end staff and getting confidence. Else the selling pitch from them will always be "you can buy EV since it's futuristic, wonderful to drive and it will saves
you lot of bucks on long run !!"

[i74js]

Originally Posted by electric.O

Answering your questions as an EV owner -

Regards
electric.o

You have gone defensive mate:
- I drive MG ZS eV ADAS
- LR with 300+ km is still not long range (its about perception that is being portrayed by Tatas) asif BYD, Kia, Hyundai and MG etc. are not LR
Peace!

[electric.O]

Originally Posted by i74js

You have gone defensive mate:
- I drive MG ZS eV ADAS
- LR with 300+ km is still not long range (its about perception that is being portrayed by Tatas) asif BYD, Kia, Hyundai and MG etc. are not LR
Peace!

Completely agree that LR is purely marketing term.
300 Shoud be the base real range by default

[Raghuwire]

Originally Posted by i74js

The usage of LR is just a lip service. The LR is against its own variant and not something that delivers a long range on the drive. The LR is going to deliver just about 250 km that too when driven with a light foot.

Tata’s are equally lobbying against Hybrids, as they don’t have access to the technology, whereas the success of both Hybrid Innova and Hyryder (alongside Suzuki badge engineered siblings) is a testament of what customers are ready to bite into.

The way greenwashing is done by companies for some of their products, an LR moniker is exactly on the same lines. A real world 500 km range can be / should be qualified as LR and not just what a company wants to portray.



Have you driven both?

It would be good to read when have you driven Punch eV.

An electric motor is by default single speed (except Porsche Taycan); thus comparison can only happen with CVTs / IVTs or eCVTs. Usage of past perfect in a comment when the forum / page is being viewed by multiple members and non-members creates confusion.

Also, it is equally important to talk about resale. An eV misses out big time on resale; the narrative goes completely haywire when the other side of the story is not projected for discussions.

And just last point, not for Tata's but for all eV players, if the running cost is cheaper - does it warrant that the sale price of the product has to go higher? eVs cost of production is certainly not higher compared to ICEs.

I disagree with multiple points in your quote.

Firstly as an avid EV user both in personal and commercial use, I believe it is better to have a smaller battery pack and more chargers. The punch ev is primarily targetted as a city car. It makes no sense to bump the price up by adding more battery packs. SO LR makes sense for the purpose. We have an MR Tiago in family, it serves the purpose and lower price.

Hyryder sells in both hybrid and non hybrid variants. There are 3 vitaras in my apartment, all are non hybrid. My friend who owns one, just wants a bigger Maruti. Do we know the split of hybrid in the sale?Also Toyota is famous for its lobbying across the world, funding papers dissing EVs, advertising Hybrids as self charging EVs etc. I have read couple of articles where it is said that Tata is lobbying against hybrids, but I doubt the veracity of the same. If true, then I don't support it, as customers need to have the final say.

Coming to resale, in future multiple cities will go the Delhi way of banning older ICE vehicles. The resale values will be hit for sure.

Cost of EV: Hope you are saying this with multiple data points that cost of EV is not more than ICE. I am working with multiple OEMs on commercial EVs and due to battery size and other considerations, the cost of EVs compared to ICE counterparts are roughly 2X.

[sharathkamath04]

Originally Posted by i74js

You have gone defensive mate:
- I drive MG ZS eV ADAS
- LR with 300+ km is still not long range (its about perception that is being portrayed by Tatas) asif BYD, Kia, Hyundai and MG etc. are not LR
Peace!

Originally Posted by electric.O

Completely agree that LR is purely marketing term.
300 Shoud be the base real range by default

300 real-world range will cost 20lk. As an OEM Tata needs to cater to both, 300km 20lk target + 250km 12lk target. Hence LR and MR.

A customer has the choice to buy, based on needs. A second car in a home can be well Tiago.MR and save a lot of money upfront.

A single-car case can opt for LR (Punch or Nexon) and use it accordingly. LR does not mean a 300km range. Its LongerRange vs MediumRange in that EV.

[GoBabyGo]

Originally Posted by electric.O

Answering your questions as an EV owner -

On the resale point, i completely agree with you. It needs a mature market to get better resale value, and i hope by next 3-4 years, when most EV's get ready for their first resale, the market is mature enough to command a better resale value.

Regards
electric.o

Hi, while I still feel XUV400 EL Pro at marginal higher price compared to Punch EV LR it better to buy, I would like to submit expense of Petrol AT vs EV assumption for my specific driving route & usage. I kept Petrol & Electricity price stable (as on date price) for calculation stability and kept EV resale price as scrape value because I am assuming that nobody will buy current generation used EV after 5 years and user will have to scrape it, most likely.

[v01d]

Originally Posted by 007maverick

NMC is energy dense hence lighter but needs advance cooling system, LPF is thermally stable, long cycle life but are heavier, and NCA is a kind of compromise between the two.

Else the selling pitch from them will always be "you can buy EV since it's futuristic, wonderful to drive and it will saves
you lot of bucks on long run !!"

Tata cars are seeing heavy utilisation of battery by the climate system due to battery heating requirements in north India winter. May be NMC is performing better there.

That pitch is far better than what I heard in a Tata showroom: "Aap khud hi gaadi dekh lo. Aajkal sab youtube pe dekh ke aate hain."

Originally Posted by GoBabyGo

... and kept EV resale price as scrape value because I am assuming that nobody will buy current generation used EV after 5 years and user will have to scrape it, most likely.

I think after 5 years, in the second hand market, these would be the only EVs available for resale. After 10, its debatable. When someone is buying an E2O today, I don't think we need to worry about resale. LFP chemistry is pretty robust in terms of charging cycles. Even if you use aggressively, more than half the cycles would be left after 5 years.

[wocanak]

Lots of interesting discussion regarding the battery system used in Tata EVs. Feels like we are putting together a puzzle, let us keep it going folks. Request anyone with expertise and knowledge to pitch in. We have two key questions

1) Max rate of charging
In practice we see max of 30 to 31 KW in Nexon Max/LR, other Tata EVs with smaller batteries are slower. If we believe this link, then the batteries used are 1 C, this means the max charging power can only be 40.5 KW for a 40.5 kWh battery pack.
a) How does Tata even claim 50KW?
b) Why is it not reaching even 40.5 KW? Is it conservative BMS? Is it lack of active cell balancing? Is it limitation of the cooling system?

2) Size of LFP battery pack on sub-4m EVs
a) Has Tata has hit the max possible LFP battery pack size for each model?
b) Can the max LFP battery size be increased with battery packaging and/or chassis design?
c) If the size limits have been reached, does it mean we are never going to have a sub-4m LFP battery EV with real world range significantly more than ~300 km (+/- 10%)

[007maverick]

Originally Posted by v01d

Tata cars are seeing heavy utilisation of battery by the climate system due to battery heating requirements in north India winter. May be NMC is performing better there.

That pitch is far better than what I heard in a Tata showroom: "Aap khud hi gaadi dekh lo. Aajkal sab Youtube pe dekh ke aate hain."



I think after 5 years, in the second hand market, these would be the only EVs available for resale. After 10, its debatable. When someone is buying an E2O today, I don't think we need to worry about resale. LFP chemistry is pretty robust in terms of charging cycles. Even if you use aggressively, more than half the cycles would be left after 5 years.

If that is the pitch those sales guys are making then it's a matter of great concern for EV cars in India. The country is just taking off on Electrics and the Companies and their respective Dealerships should make efforts to help customers to take well informed decision.

I think the market esp in India is not at a stage where the customers have a straight choice of EV over ICE. Pl see my earlier post in the forum for a decision criteria. In short "if it's your only car and you want flexibility to operate it in city & long distances - EV car doesn't make any sense at this stage". We should expect higher EVs in luxury segment (50 lakh plus) where usually the customer owns more than 1 car and there is a price inelasticity.

I was surprised to see very minimum penetration of EV cars in US (mid West state). There were more Hybrids like Toyota Prius on road. The penetration of Tesla was bit better in Uber since they offered a huge financial incentives for buyers and the car has heavy running.

There is no doubt that EV is a future of motoring. But there is a very less probability that ICE will get extinct over the next 20 years. ICE industry is making strong progress to make the engines efficient, less polluting with innovative technologies with alternate fuels like Hydrogen. The exhaust from Euro 6 / BS VI is cleaner than polluted air in some of our cities !! Hydrogen would be a game changer on long term since the fuel filling time of gas would be in few minutes and range gets far superior compared to electrics.

[i74js]

Originally Posted by sharathkamath04

A single-car case can opt for LR (Punch or Nexon) and use it accordingly. LR does not mean a 300km range. Its LongerRange vs MediumRange in that EV.

This made me smile - LongerRange!

Atleast someone is trying to defend the manufacturer.

[Guna]

Originally Posted by jillako

I find adaptive cruise useful in two situations - First one is stop and go traffic where one is constantly switching between the accelerator and brake. I don’t enjoy this and prefer to let the car handle it.

Does ACC work well in crawling traffic? In which car have you experienced this? I thought you need a feature like 'Traffic Jam Assist' for this. If normal ACC works well, I would love to have it in my car.