[Nikhil Beke]

Originally Posted by ashutoshb

Tata has taken the MG Comet formula and nailed it. Small doesn't always mean cheap, doesn't always mean bare bones. All those who wanted more features in a small car will like what is being offered.

No it hasn't: a city car(for today's Indian cities) needs to be smaller with good features. Punch is still almost-4m.
Tata needs to revive Pixel Nano, in an EV avtaar, to get that title back:

https://youtu.be/7MTQKV5pjOE?si=HPUq6xNNP5ZZZnvS

[Excaliber_007]

Originally Posted by thomahawk

I don't think the market has many options to choose from if one is not inclined to own a Tata.
===
Escalation to regional office was just redirected to the dealer itself over an email – so you are at your dealer’s mercy. I love the car, but I only recommended it to friends who could live with these – not everyone can.

I am sad to know about your experience.
I have a Tiago EV top end in the family, been using it daily for a 50 kms run. So far, it is totally niggle free! Fingers Crossed!

[007maverick]

Before buying Electric Car, one must be self aware about the reasons for buying it.

While EVs are the future in motoring, they are not yet operating on a reasonably developed eco system. Its not just inadequate charging infra, but also unprepared dealerships to handle EVs at many places.

It's a fact that not many options are available today for EV buyers if they have a budget around 15 - 25 lakhs. And even if the options open up - can someone likes to buy if its the only Car he/she would like to own? This is a big question. Very few buyers get into the details such as the type of Cell chemistry that has gone into the Battery of the vehicle which they are buying.

Sensible way would be to own Electric car as a 2nd Car OR buy ICE vehicle and get into electric 4-5 years down the line when India will have a fairly matured infrastructure and expert manpower available to handle after market service. Full hybrids such as Maruti Vitara or Toyota Hyryder are also the great alternatives to full electric.

Buying Electric car purely based on initial price and features doesn't make a sense today from a practical perspective.

[ashutoshb]

Originally Posted by Nikhil Beke

No it hasn't: a city car(for today's Indian cities) needs to be smaller with good features. Punch is still almost-4m.
Tata needs to revive Pixel Nano, in an EV avtaar, to get that title back:

A smaller car with almost zero cargo space, no suitability for occasional highway runs, isn't practical enough. And they don't look normal. Even today, a conventional design is still preferred more, though some might find them attractive (Ask me, I own a Nano as well ). IMHO, a sub 4-metre vehicle with a good turning radius is practical enough for our cities.

[VaibhavShatna95]

Originally Posted by thomahawk

I don't think the market has many options to choose from if one is not inclined to own a Tata. The after sales experience must improve by quite a margin before one can own one of these as their only car.

There are far too many niggles one must live with; I bought my Tiago EV after waiting for more than a year. Yet my car had most of the issues owners pointed out on the launch car. There was a dead cricket inside the cabin light – how terrible could their QC be for that to happen? I found nuts and plastic rivets in nooks and crannies of the car – not sure if belonged to the car or if they fell off from assembly line.

TASS made me wait for 2 weeks for a fan replacement without a courtesy car. Escalation to regional office was just redirected to the dealer itself over an email – so you are at your dealer’s mercy. I love the car, but I only recommended it to friends who could live with these – not everyone can.

That I agree with, fuel cap issue is the one which infuriates me personally but the same issue happened with my i10 NIOS as well and I have a Ford as well so everything looks good once you have owned that.

Maruti is the only brand I trust with service among the ones I have owned and to some part Hyundai.

[Iyencar]

Compared the Nexon and Punch LR Ev models' specs from the respective Tata websites to try and gauge what the fundamental differences are. I avoided MR Punch vs MR Nexon or LR Punch vs MR Nexon comparo so I didn't lose my mind.

Punch:


Nexon:


From a pure battery and performance standpoint the two seem neck and neck. Both have the same batteries give or take. The Nexon battery has extra 5kwh juice but it needs to powers a larger and heavier car. The same applies for the performance figures too which is reflected in the 0-100 times.
Both have adjustable regen with paddle shifters and provide three drive modes: eco, city and sport. Both cars also have the gen 2 motor paired with the IP 67 liquid cooled batteries.
I only saw some Power Electronics mentioned on the Nexon site which isn't advertised for the Punch.


Surely there have to be some algorithms on the Punch as well. Does anyone know what the differences, if any, would be?

The Punch instead advertises the battery warranty (which again is the same for the Nexon, right?)



All said and done are the differences between the two cars just more cosmetic than mechanical? Of course the Nexon is a bigger car with better seats, and probably some feel good features, etc. However, for someone wanting to experiment with EVs for the first time, will the Punch be a better entry point than the Nexon? In fact the Punch has an advantage over the Nexon with the concealed power cables thanks to the born electric architecture. The lack of spare could be a disadvantage but there is no clarity on this. Doesn't seem the Punch is an inferior car to the Nexon atleast based on the specs. While one buys a car and not the spec sheet, the whole "one segment below" argument isn't as true in this case I feel. Someone with a better technical understanding is going to come along in the next few posts and show that I am completely off, but my gut says I'm not completely wrong.

[wocanak]

Originally Posted by sharathkamath04

Curious, what technology are we talking about?

LFP is a stable battery tech that is less costly and more India-friendly (summers can get very hot) compared to NMC. NMC will escalate the cost further and make EVs less commercially viable.

Even with LFP batteries there are many advancements and variants. One is the charging capability, Tata seems to be stuck with 0.7 C, max charging power will be 0.7 * battery capacity, so they are stuck at ~1 hour for 10% to 80% charging. There are 1 C and 2 C LFP batteries, which could take advantage of the 60/120 KW chargers that are coming up.

Second is packaging type, Tata is using cylindrical cells, due to the lower khw/kg they can't provide more than 40 kwh battery in the sub 4m cars. But there are LFP prismatic cells and BYD's blade cells, which offer more efficient packaging, i.e. much higher kwh/kg.

These two together means low range and not so fast charging, and these are limiting the highway usage of Tata EVs, If you want LFP without these limitations then MG ZS EV is currently the only option near this price range.

I think Tata doesn't want to further risk battery issues by using more advanced batteries. Also by sticking to older technology they will have room for price drops on these models once real competition comes in.

They have created wrong expectation by harping on gen 1/gen 2, that has only helped with fitting the battery better and not the actual EV capability. We have to see when they finally improve the EV capability.

[gauravdgr8]

Originally Posted by thomahawk

(looking at the discounts already available)

Last I heard the heavy discounts are available on the old stock/version of Nexon. My sales guy even shared the inventory on discount. On EV max, he quoted a discount of >2 lacs.

[Harjot37]

Originally Posted by Harjot37

...
Taking the overlapping and Tata's ambitious pricing (would hurt a little less if that new screen came in) in consideration, in my best guess, the Punch.EV would be priced at (no drumroll, please) ₹9.99/₹10.49 lakhs lakhs at the bottom end, and ₹14.29/₹14.99 lakhs at the other. Tata currently retails Punch in 4 variants- Pure, Adventure, Accomplished, and Creative. Going by the recent launch, most likely 'Pure' name would be dropped, and a new name for the top variant would be added (suggestion at the end).

Points worthy of note

• EVs are meant to be an ideal replacement for diesels, which were more economical and had more torque than their petrol counterparts. Diesel automatics, more so. Since most Diesel-manuals nowadays cost the same as petrol-automatics, and automatic transmissions cost ~₹1 lakh more than manuals in the ₹10-20 lakh segment, it makes more sense to go for a Nexon.EV than its diesel automatic right now. Seeing it this way, Tata EVs in this price bracket start to make more economical sense.
• The new Nexon.EV is pricier by ₹25,000 at the lower end. Considering this car took half-a-generational leap, this is a justifiable reason for the subsequent price increase.
• I see this as a move to obliterate any competition in this category (looking at you, Mahindra), whereas in the lower than 10 mil INR segment, Tata does not see any worthy competitor to necessitate a price decrease (MG and Citroen are niche players, anyway).
• Seeing the price disparity between battery capacities of Tiago.EV and Nexon.EV, it is safe to say that Tata is milking its customers in the lower segment. Tata should name the Punch.EV's top model Shameless, if it goes down this path.
• I would like to be wrong.

Quoting myself from earlier. The price is palatable. This car, just like Nexon.EV, took half a generational leap, what with a reconfigured platform, and Tata threw the kitchen sink w.r.t. the features. For one, I'm delighted (I guess I am the target customer). But enough of this introductory nonsense, already! The 3-year old battery tech is lame and outdated (in industry-speak) already; the car does not warrant a price hike with the kind of volumes you're projecting to do.
Anyway, I also suspect the discounts on the Tiago.EV to become permanent in the near future (as they should've already!).

[Raghuwire]

Originally Posted by wocanak

Second is packaging type, Tata is using cylindrical cells, due to the lower khw/kg they can't provide more than 40 kwh battery in the sub 4m cars. But there are LFP prismatic cells and BYD's blade cells, which offer more efficient packaging, i.e. much higher kwh/kg.

Correct me if I am wrong. I have read online that GM and BMW are moving to cylindrical cells. BMW is moving from prismatic to cylindrical. So, there may be some advantages to cylindrical cells right?

[DIY410]

Originally Posted by Raghuwire

Correct me if I am wrong. I have read online that GM and BMW are moving to cylindrical cells. BMW is moving from prismatic to cylindrical. So, there may be some advantages to cylindrical cells right?

If you have a skateboard design and its LFP then prismatic blade style cells utilize the maximum volumetric space.

Where as cylindrical cells is better for NMC reason being that for what ever reason the cells goes out of balance or faulty leading to overcharge or involved in a big crash, the potential energy in a small cell of 5AH for 21700 and 20AH for 4680 cell is much lower then a Blade style battery which is 210AH. Each cylinderical cell is separated with fire proof foam. Also for vehicles that don't have a skate board design the customization is more in cylindrical cell.

Cylindrical cells uptil 21700 size is also used significantly in 2 wheelers, cordless power tools, Cordless and robo vacs, so economics of scale is more in cylindrical form factor.

LFP cells don't need this since they don't catch fire and they also operate at a lower temperature requiring lesser cooling.

[jillako]

Originally Posted by Excaliber_007

No ADAS features offered in Punch EV.

That's unfortunate. Pretty much ticks all the other boxes for me.

[Kevinrevvz]

Originally Posted by Harjot37

I also suspect the discounts on the Tiago.EV to become permanent in the near future (as they should've already!).

Both the Tiago EV LR and Nexon EV MR seem obselete to me as the Punch EV LR surpasses both in terms of performance, range and features. Most people looking to buy a top end Tiago would be willing to shell out a couple lakhs more for a vastly superior car. May I know how much the discounts being offered on the Tiago EV are?

[i74js]

Originally Posted by self_driven

These prices are indeed very good, especially for Long Range variants!

The usage of LR is just a lip service. The LR is against its own variant and not something that delivers a long range on the drive. The LR is going to deliver just about 250 km that too when driven with a light foot.

Tata’s are equally lobbying against Hybrids, as they don’t have access to the technology, whereas the success of both Hybrid Innova and Hyryder (alongside Suzuki badge engineered siblings) is a testament of what customers are ready to bite into.

The way greenwashing is done by companies for some of their products, an LR moniker is exactly on the same lines. A real world 500 km range can be / should be qualified as LR and not just what a company wants to portray.

Originally Posted by GoBabyGo

Hi, while there are reasons for others to be upset about the price of Punch EV compared to Punch ICE, however, my observation is as below:

1. Punch EV can not be compared with Punch ICE (AMT to be specific). Punch EV is far more superior in driving comfort, dynamics & reliability as an AT compared to Punch AMT.

Have you driven both?

It would be good to read when have you driven Punch eV.

An electric motor is by default single speed (except Porsche Taycan); thus comparison can only happen with CVTs / IVTs or eCVTs. Usage of past perfect in a comment when the forum / page is being viewed by multiple members and non-members creates confusion.

Also, it is equally important to talk about resale. An eV misses out big time on resale; the narrative goes completely haywire when the other side of the story is not projected for discussions.

And just last point, not for Tata's but for all eV players, if the running cost is cheaper - does it warrant that the sale price of the product has to go higher? eVs cost of production is certainly not higher compared to ICEs.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by wocanak

Even with LFP batteries there are many advancements and variants. One is the charging capability, Tata seems to be stuck with 0.7 C, max charging power will be 0.7 * battery capacity, so they are stuck at ~1 hour for 10% to 80% charging. There are 1 C and 2 C LFP batteries, which could take advantage of the 60/120 KW chargers that are coming up.

Is this multiplication factor the average charging speed across the charging curve? I am asking this because Tata is quoting a max of 50kw DC charging which is not 0.7 x the battery capacity. It does however makes sense for the average charging speed since the charging rate goes lower as battery fills up.

Originally Posted by wocanak

Second is packaging type, Tata is using cylindrical cells, due to the lower khw/kg they can't provide more than 40 kwh battery in the sub 4m cars. But there are LFP prismatic cells and BYD's blade cells, which offer more efficient packaging, i.e. much higher kwh/kg.

I dont think it has anything to do with Tata not wanting to do it but cost. There are no economies of scale and Tata is not manufacturing these batteries in house either. That said LFP is a perfectly good chemistry given they can be charged to 100% without adversely effecting battery longevity and they are much safer when it comes to thermal runaway. That said it is an oversight by Tata. The charging speed is too slow for a gen 2 EV being launched today

Originally Posted by wocanak

I think Tata doesn't want to further risk battery issues by using more advanced batteries. Also by sticking to older technology they will have room for price drops on these models once real competition comes in.

Pretty sure Harrier and Safari EV's will have better batteries if not NMC. The NMC might be reserved for pure grounds up EV's.

Originally Posted by DIY410

If you have a skateboard design and its LFP then prismatic blade style cells utilize the maximum volumetric space.

Where as cylindrical cells is better for NMC reason being that for what ever reason the cells goes out of balance or faulty leading to overcharge or involved in a big crash, the potential energy in a small cell of 5AH for 21700 and 20AH for 4680 cell is much lower then a Blade style battery which is 210AH. Each cylinderical cell is separated with fire proof foam. Also for vehicles that don't have a skate board design the customization is more in cylindrical cell.

Cylindrical cells uptil 21700 size is also used significantly in 2 wheelers, cordless power tools, Cordless and robo vacs, so economics of scale is more in cylindrical form factor.

LFP cells don't need this since they don't catch fire and they also operate at a lower temperature requiring lesser cooling.

It is all about cost. Tesla also uses LFP battery in the base Model 3 and Y. You are also forgetting that cylindrical cells are a requirement for a structural battery pack so even though battery pack may be bigger or heavier than prismatic that fact it is structural might mean that its eventually lighter when installed in a car.