[Imran.Syed]

Yes, you read that right. And no, its not just the sales number.

Electric vehicles catching fire is a critical issue that is being suppressed by traditional and modern media alike. It seems like every brand has been affected by this issue at some point, but the problem is exacerbated by the use of Chinese-manufactured EVs or other OEMs using Chinese batteries in their EVs.

This ticking time bomb is being deliberately ignored by the media and the public alike, who are more concerned about either the tech in cars or skyrocketing fuel prices than safety. We have all known about this issue, its nothing new, but the marketing of quirks and features has gotten so potent that the human mind with already limited attention span has completely forgotten that this is still a very real ongoing issue.

Case in point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNwaeUI4IRw

Chinese-manufactured EVs, such as BYD's Han, may have innovative features and a lower price point, but safety has been massively sidelined in favor of gimmicks or pricing, a very common Chinese tactic. This lack of attention to safety is illustrated in the video that follows, and notice how EV fires are almost impossible to put out and have the potential to spread to other cars or buildings nearby.


Watch how the new BYD Han has been catching on fire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOA7qKMcjcE

While performance, battery life, and cost of running are important metrics, so is the safety of drivers and their families. The Japanese have been reluctant to embrace EVs for this reason, and new EV brands without a safety or reliability pedigree are popping up left and right, with little to lose and a lot to gain.


Even Indian EV manufacturers are relying heavily on Chinese technology that is known to be dangerously flawed. While ICE vehicles are flawed too, EVs are clearly not yet ready for mass mobility due to the safety concerns posed by their batteries. Olectra (BYD) is supply 1000s of busses to our city's streets. The issue of EV fires is not being talked about enough, despite incidents like the BYD electric buses catching on fire while in service.

https://www.electrive.com/2023/03/07...-to-telangana/
https://www.indiatoday.in/cities/mum...480-2022-05-24

Olectra is the Indian JV with China's BYD.

Accelerated battery degradation, low real-world range, and performance degradation in extreme weather conditions comically pales in comparison to the safety risks posed by EV fires. I consciously try to stay from an EV as much as I can if I spot them in my rear/side view mirrors, but that is also because of the fact that many distracted drivers use Autopilot/cruise control and they are prone to mistakes.

The onus falls on us to make a safe and sound decision. Rather than brushing this issue under the carpet in pursuit of features and cost savings, we should start asking dealerships/OEMs for explanations. After all, there's nothing more important than the safety and well-being of ourselves and our loved ones.

Fortunately, the issue is very significantly pertinent to Chinese Batteries/EVs, but rather unfortunately, China is the leader by a big margin when in comes to all things EV.

God bless us all.

To all teamBHP seniors: Is there an organized manner in which we as general public can hold these manufacturers accountable?
I refuse to give in and be at the mercy of the Chinese. I also don't think staying away from buying EVs is a good solution in the long run.

Mods, please merge thread if appropriate as I was not able to find a dedicated thread to this issue.

[epiccross]

All cars could catch fire. Be it ICE or EV. I don't think there's anything inherently worse in EV in that sense. BYD has one of the better and safer battery techs if I'm not wrong. Do you have any stats showing that BYD or these manufacturer's EVs disproportionately catch fire compared to their ICE counterparts or even other non Chinese EVs like Tesla? I think with better QC, a lot of these issues will take care of themselves.

[Cresterk]

may have innovative features and a lower price point, but safety has been massively sidelined in favor of gimmicks or pricing, a very common Chinese tactic.

You mean like what the Koreans (Hyundai/Kia) and Japanese (Maruti Suzuki) have already been doing here for years?

[mayuresh]

Thanks for bringing up the topic. I am curious about the following aspects also (besides safety):

1. Battery life and cost of replacement: Has data about this aspect started coming in. In how many years the battery has to be changed and how much would it cost. Are people factoring it in the TCO?

2. Resale value: Due to ageing battery what is the impact on the resale value?

3. Effective carbon footprint: The vehicle is "greener" at the point of use. But in countries like India, with major fraction of electricity coming from fossil fuels, what is the overall carbon footprint equation. Are we doing better or worse than a fossil fuel based vehicle - in terms of carbon footprint?

[Shresth_EV]

Originally Posted by mayuresh

1. In how many years the battery has to be changed and how much would it cost.

There is no hard and fast time frame for replacement. A battery does not need to be replaced in the same sense as in a RC car. The batteries do not die, only degrade ie their capacity reduces. Think of it as tyres. The tread gets faded with use and grip decreases.

Most long term examples like ‘12 model S show 5-10% degradation over 100,000km

Even if we assume our own EVs have batteries only as good as a decade old Tesla battery, 100,00km for 5% drop is totally acceptable levels of drop. And the car factors it in, it’s not like you wouldn’t be able to know when it starts giving lower range.

3. Effective carbon footprint: But in countries like India, with major fraction of electricity coming from fossil fuels, what is the overall carbon footprint equation.

The long tailpipe argument has been debunked many times. The causes are simple, higher efficiency of a power plant, more pollution control equipment possible to be mounted without size cost and weight limitations compared to cars, and inherently higher efficiency of EVs.

As of 2021 itself, EVs were 19% cleaner in India after considering all points ie Battery production, electricity production, oil refining and tailpipe emissions. This will rise to 34% by 2030 as projected by ICCT in the same report.

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

This ticking time bomb is being deliberately ignored by the media and the public alike, who are more concerned about either the tech in cars or skyrocketing fuel prices than safety.

EV fires are very well documented and reported upon, so much so that even ICE fires are reported as EV fires, purely for sensational value.

Of course, I would not count incidents of fires in China, because with their media, it’s difficult to get any news out and check its reliability.

We can’t really blame EV fire news not coming from China but happening nevertheless, simply on media suppressing “EV fire news” and not the government suppressing all outflow of domestic news in general.

Then again, the raw numbers is not exactly useful anyway. The statement “India has 300M cars” is worthless without context of population. Similarly, the figures should not be treated as absolute, but juxtaposed with number of ICE fires, say, per 1000 cars sold.

Only then it is an accurate picture. Otherwise it is very easy to say that since “X” is a very big number and represents EV fires, it must be bad. We need to compare on per unit car basis, no raw figure basis.

The Japanese have been reluctant to embrace EVs for this reason, and new EV brands without a safety or reliability pedigree are popping up left and right, with little to lose and a lot to gain.

I don’t think that it is their concern for safety. Multiple Prius have been charred, so have nissan leafs. Again, it’s not like only electric cars catch fires, and thus, fire risk is probably not the reason for Japanese laggardness in the industry, it’s their inaction and misplaced investment into FCEVs and hydrogen.

I consciously try to stay from an EV as much as I can if I spot them in my rear/side view mirrors, but that is also because of the fact that many distracted drivers use Autopilot/cruise control and they are prone to mistakes.

Unless you’re abroad, I’ve seen far more abuse of XUV ADAS than anyone in EVs. It’s a totally anecdotal and probably exaggerated statement.

Rather than brushing this issue under the carpet in pursuit of features and cost savings, we should start asking dealerships/OEMs for explanations.

Totally, manufacturers should have accountability and take responsibility of vehicle safety.

[Imran.Syed]

Originally Posted by epiccross

All cars could catch fire. Be it ICE or EV. I don't think there's anything inherently worse in EV in that sense. BYD has one of the better and safer battery techs if I'm not wrong. Do you have any stats showing that BYD or these manufacturer's EVs disproportionately catch fire compared to their ICE counterparts or even other non Chinese EVs like Tesla? I think with better QC, a lot of these issues will take care of themselves.

Teslas IMHO is the safest EV option out there right now. Safest amongst the sea of other EVs, not all cars, and I have been inside brand new Teslas that were falling apart so thats not a very high standard to meet right now.

BYD is a very very big company but QC is not a priority for them. Please watch the serpentza video I have linked, it is very common for these EVs, especially the well known ones from BYD to catch on fire.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/25/tech/...all/index.html
Hyundai has had this problem too. GM/Ford, Germans the Japanese, everyone has had this problem. Millions of batteries have been recalled already and even though i do not understand the economics behind vehicle recall and how much it helps a company's brand image, these recalls have all been exceptionally expensive so it must have been a very tough decision to sink all that money into recalls.

I cannot find many articles for Indian cars that were recalled for similar reasons. That is concerning.

BYD:
https://www.just-auto.com/news/myste...ttery-recalls/
https://www.asiafinancial.com/ev-bat...s-transparency

Google is full of such articles.

Originally Posted by Cresterk

You mean like what the Koreans (Hyundai/Kia) and Japanese (Maruti Suzuki) have already been doing here for years?

Yes, something like that. Except how many Korea and Japanese or heck, even American cars do you know catch on fire? I have been around BYD ICE cars too and they are the worst cars ever, it's like buying a beater car straight out from a showroom. But they were not known to catch on fire. They were known for bad quality build (so much worse than the worst Maruti we have on our roads) and low reliability. ICE technology has come very far so I guess its easy and cheap to make sure your car is not too big of a fire hazard. EVs are just starting up, and I feel like the (not-so) early adopters and their families are like the test crash dummies used in crash test rating agencies.

Originally Posted by mayuresh

Thanks for bringing up the topic. I am curious about the following aspects also (besides safety):

1. Battery life and cost of replacement: Has data about this aspect started coming in. In how many years the battery has to be changed and how much would it cost. Are people factoring it in the TCO?

2. Resale value: Due to ageing battery what is the impact on the resale value?

3. Effective carbon footprint: The vehicle is "greener" at the point of use. But in countries like India, with major fraction of electricity coming from fossil fuels, what is the overall carbon footprint equation. Are we doing better or worse than a fossil fuel based vehicle - in terms of carbon footprint?

Oh I don't even want to get into how polluting it is to manufacturer batteries, let alone a new car.
You can bet that these EVs will come in with the worst possible anti-right to repair features soon because of sAfeTy cOncErnS and manufacturers will get away with it hand in glove with Goverments.
All this would mean planned obsolescence on steroids, so battery cost will be relatively affordable in the future, but the cost of replacement will be high and hence the resale value absolutely abysmal. Basically, priced to engineer future sales.

Off topic:I noticed a few years ago that HP made their printers harder to work with third party, unlicensed (and much cheaper) toners and cartridges. Its still possible to do it but won't be for long in the future.

Originally Posted by Shresth_EV

We can’t really blame EV fire news not coming from China but happening nevertheless, simply on media suppressing “EV fire news” and not the government suppressing all outflow of domestic news in general.

Then again, the raw numbers is not exactly useful anyway. The statement “India has 300M cars” is worthless without context of population. Similarly, the figures should not be treated as absolute, but juxtaposed with number of ICE fires, say, per 1000 cars sold.

Only then it is an accurate picture. Otherwise it is very easy to say that since “X” is a very big number and represents EV fires, it must be bad. We need to compare on per unit car basis, no raw figure basis.
I don’t think that it is their concern for safety. Multiple Prius have been charred, so have nissan leafs. Again, it’s not like only electric cars catch fires, and thus, fire risk is probably not the reason for Japanese laggardness in the industry, it’s their inaction and misplaced investment into FCEVs and hydrogen.

Raw data is all we have right now. And there is a lot of it.
I will still say that even a 2023 ICE car catching on fire will easily grab the attention of people and potential customers. I have never seen an ICE fire reported as an EV fire, even for sensational reasons. But yeah who knows, with click baity media, anything is possible.

It is one thing for all manufacturers to have some issues, but its another for one of the largest, and sometimes even the largest EV manufacturer in the world to have this issue. Its entirely a different for Nissan and Toyota and Tesla, they come with way more transparency. (which is still not very high) but BYD EVs are penetrating all markets in the world with not many checks and balances. I was a little shocked to see even India, a major anti-China country has BYD Electric Busses plying away on the roads, so you can imagine the situation in pro-China or neutral countries. CCP has a lot of money to buy influence, I wonder why it would not force manufacturers to invest more in QC. Oh that's right, because then there stuff would cost more.


What made me start this thread is the fact that I have personally been inside an ICE car which caught on fire.

So I do have some experience in car-on-fire. But the fire I was involved in started slow and increased rapidly albeit in a controllable manner. I was able to put it out with buckets of water and two fire extinguishers.
This model of car was not known for being a fire risk.

When I see the EVs catching on fire, hell it is clear that once it starts, it is impossible to stop till its burn down completely.
Sometimes when cars catch on fire, the doors lock up and electrical windows stop working. In that moment, the speed of the fire matters by every second.
And even if we disregard the speed, the intensity of the explosions that happen in an EV fire/battery shorting is just scary.

[volkman10]

EV Jaguar( I-PACE.) charging in garage when fire started in Centennial, Colorado.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itGeAq9rBeY

[kmrjt1]

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

Mods, please merge thread if appropriate as I was not able to find a dedicated thread to this issue.

Overall a very good read and certainly agree with most of what you have mentioned here

[volkman10]

Volvo C40 Recharge electric car catches fire.

The incident occurred in Chhattisgarh, while the owner was driving and captures the moment the Volvo C40 Recharge caught fire. Fortunately, everyone on board managed to escape unharmed before the flames engulfed the car completely.





Link:

[SidTheChamp]

There has been many instances of Electric Cars catching fire from various countries. In one instance, during Christmas weekend one Tesla car caught a huge fire in Alabama. The impact was
- Highway need to be shut down
- 36000 gallons or 136000 litres was used to douse the fire.

When electric vehicle catches fire, dousing it is a major task and much more difficult than ICE cars.

Such incident if it happens on crowded highways in India will be a major problem

[DriverLess]

Fire extinguishers or water seems to be ineffective in dousing EV fires. I came across this Car Fire Blanket product (https://www.edarley.com/car-fire-blanket/) which is being marketed as a solution to contain EV fires. Here is a demonstration (different brand) by fire department on Tesla.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv2L_QYg4oA

These are expected to contain the fire (not douse). In the future, may be this is something we should expect as part of standard safety equipment that OEMs have to ship with new cars. Owners/housing societies/fire departments should explore adding this to their fire safety management.

[PreludeSH]

I had posted in another thread regarding EV fires. In ICE cars the fire starts in the electrical circuits powering accessories, for airbags etc which is common to EVs. EVs could have these fires too.

In EVs, additionally the fuel source itself self combusts which doesn't happen in ICE cars. Added risks are putting it out is difficult and even after putting it out, it might keep re-igniting. So there are some differences. I park my cars in my garage and not sure I am confident to park an EV and wouldn't even want to charge them there.

[sagsaw]

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/te...-12543731.html

If this is true, then its very scary.
Laptop BMS in a two wheeler is receipe for disaster.

ARAI has to be questioned on how the approvals were granted.

[Shresth_EV]

Originally Posted by sagsaw

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/te...-12543731.html

If this is true, then its very scary.
Laptop BMS in a two wheeler is receipe for disaster.

ARAI has to be questioned on how the approvals were granted.

While I’m all for safer EVs, the way he worded it seems like indirect advertisement for NXP while putting the sole blame of EV fires on rival chipmakers

Basically a version of “buy our product if you want to prevent fires”

I’m sure their products are top notch, but to put blanket blame of fires on BMS chips indirectly aiming at their competitors is wrong, unless they have performed teardown of every fire-incident EV, this statement is anecdotal at best.

The EV builders are not innocent either especially the Chinese kit scooters. But his blanket statement makes it seem every scooter fire is to blame from “laptop BMS in scooter” which is bad image for a company exec to say.

[sagsaw]

Originally Posted by Shresth_EV

While I’m all for safer EVs, the way he worded it seems like indirect advertisement for NXP while putting the sole blame of EV fires on rival chipmakers

Don't think he would make such a statement wothout proper homework.