[jathin]

Did a brief test drive of the e-C3 on Hosur Road, Bangalore.

The driveability of the vehicle is very good in the normal mode. The eco mode is suitable in slow moving traffic. There appears to be regeneration in eco mode as per the indication in the digital display.

The ride quality is very good. However, the rear seats do not have adequate thigh support because of the raised floor level whereas it is better in the C3 petrol version.

Overall, it is a good choice if the predominant use is in city.

[guptad42]

Citroen is now running full page ads saying petrol C3 starts at just 5.98Lacs and with additional benefits on 50K on top. It drives the petrol c3 positioning bang into the petrol tiago teritorry even further, and then Citroen still wonders why the electric versions of the same cars are getting compared.

The eC3 is probably not a bad car. But every major decision on the car's spec was designed for a low price - the visible look matching entry level petrol, the petrol tank lid not removed with a revised panel, missing features, even an air cooled battery despite the strongly negative reputation of air cooled batteries in the EV-aware crowd. Such deep cost cutting in both visible features and technical heart of the product. Such ignorance for how people will perceive it. The eC3 product configuration simply does not match the pricing aspiration. That's the disconnect. . I hope eC3 does not become Citroen's Nano lesson in India. An otherwise good idea that failed due to wrong market positioning.

Citroen has two choices:
1. Launch an introductory 'mission electric India' offer for better pricing on already made cars for first 10-20K bookings. Will need a steep discount of 1-1.5L to make sense.
2. Hold the pricing but offer upgrades on the eC3 cars with a few select features that make the model better value. Visible ones like front and rear skid plate, new colours for EV only, LED headlamps, Cruise control, a new top level trim with alloys and leatherette seats (could be made by merging priced options into a new pack).

It is interesting that Citroen had made no noise about number of eC3 bookings or cancellations since the pricing reveal.

The lack of momentum will introduce a new worry for Indian buyers - what if Citroen packs its bags and leaves due to lack of sales. Bigger companies like GM and Ford have done so. Initial market buzz and sales success was needed to overcome this hurdle.

[sumannandy]

There are many test eC3s running in many major highways in south India. However apparently they take a very long time to charge blocking the chargers. Don’t know if it is for running some tests while charging or due to some other issues.

[INNOVATOR]

The eC3 is dead on arrival on account of its pricing and that is no surprise. What is surprising though, is that we consumers are surprised. After Citroen’s disastrous debut of the C5 Aircross, the company seems to be hell bent on taking tuitions from the worst in the industry- namely Honda for pricing, Renault Nissan for skimpy products, Maruti for cost cutting and they are doing pathbreaking work on safety.
I do sympathise with the La Maison Citroen’s franchisees though. May God grant them solace and peace.

[AnandSancheti]

There are 2 things I would like to add to this whole debate. Here goes:

I am assuming here the ex-showroom price & going back to basic cost plus the taxes component. I am also assuming here that from the cost of manufacturing the manufacturer adds around 20% add-on for their own profits, dealer commissions, transport, insurance & other expenses which will not attract GST. On that basis, the cost of a base version of C3 Ice would be 385468 & assuming that 4lks plus GST would be added cost for an EV as an additional cost for an EV. As the engine & transmission is giving way for a motor thus assuming cost stays constant & battery pack costs for 4lk+ GST. In the 3rd scenario, I am assuming that the cost is higher even without the battery & the battery costs 5lakhs+ GST. In all scenarios, one thing is clear the manufacturer by virtue of lower output GST in EVs makes a net gain of around 1lk just by way of GST, which can be used to offset the GST output received from ICE vehicles. In my opinion, EVs are extremely profitable & due to the lack of competition, everyone entering this segment is milking it by using the excuse of battery packs being expensive.

I was really looking forward to EC3, and was hoping if the pricing is sensible i will sell my current car & shift to EV. I am saying this knowing very well all the weaknesses of the car in terms of features & power. I have been using an Electric Scooty & my understanding from there is that when the battery charge goes lower an EV loses zing, so controlling the power from the top means when the car is on a lower charge it will continue to provide the same output thus you will feel you are driving the same car without any change in the driving dynamics. There is no way I can justify a 5.5lks premium for an EV over an ICE variant costing just 5.98lakhs in the first place.

[guptad42]

There are new battery breakthroughs every year, but very few reach mass production. 2023-2025 is a very interesting time, because 3 classes of battery chemistry are expected to enter mass production.

1. Sodium batteries - The first 1GWh line started last year. The biggest battery makers on the planet like CATL and BYD have indicated production this year.

2. Sulfur batteries - a well known technology, but was hamstrung by polysulfides that reduce charge cycles. Two independent teams found ways that completely solve the problem last year. Now, you suddenly see scale manufacturing of cheap sulfur batteries back on the table.

3. Semi /solid state batteries. Semi solid state designs have already gone into trial production, with production validation samples of batteries under testing at major customers (car makers).

This is in addition to the improvements in LFP energy density, that also reduces cost per KWH..

All 3 types, especially the first two, reduce material costs dramatically. Sodium and Sulfur chemistries use especially abundant and cheap materials and can use conventional battery making techniques. This means that in the next 2-3 years, we will see sharp reductions in battery costs.

Impact 1: Under the current GST regime in India, EVs may become cheaper than petrol cars in the 10-15L price range, and new options will come up in 8-10L bracket. (At which point, govt may be tempted to start hiking GST on EVs.)

Cars like tiago and eC3 make sense today if priced right, but the gen2/3 EVs will be far superior within 2-3 years - in weight, range, packaging, and price. At that time, some of us can thank Citroen for stopping us from going electric on a gen1 EV by pricing it too high. At 10L Live and 11L Feel, eC3 would have become popular, and established Citroen brand as a modern, practical car maker in India.

The top battery makers, CATL and BYD, have realised this will be a game of scale and have launched a battery price war. They are doing very large, discounted deals if a carmaker books bulk of the battery supply from them. It is hurting the smaller battery makers, like Svolt that Citroen uses. Perhaps, Citroen needs to renogiate the battery pricing from their supplier. But, the parent group Stellantis and their CEO are anti-EV and not willing to commit to scale on EVs. Instead, Stallantis is lobbying Eiropean govts to dilute EU's 2035 ban on selling ICE cars.

Impact 2: The human angle - When an EV is cheaper to buy, cheaper to run, and easier to drive, with better performance, how do you convince majority of the buyers to buy a petrol car?

It will be seen as obsolete tech, like featurephones before smartphones, though it may take some time for the change of mindset to percolate. I suspect used petrol car prices will plummet within 5 years. All of us buying petrol cars today waiting for better EVs will still suffer financially from the loss of resale value. Is it our best option to try and hold a new car purchase for couple of years, unless one really needs a new car right now?

[Sumedik]

Originally Posted by guptad42

Cars like tiago and eC3 make sense today if priced right, but the gen2/3 EVs will be far superior within 2-3 years - in weight, range, packaging, and price. At that time, some of us can thank Citroen for stopping us from going electric on a gen1 EV by pricing it too high.

This is the most optimistic view of eC3 I ever read anywhere!

On a different note, I too agree that the best strategy is to defer a car purchase. Even the E20 compatibility/optimization fiasco would take a while to settle.

[Magicallyme]

This YouTube channel is providing real time ownership updates on Citroen eC3, I found the videos very informative. The channel is also replying to comments and seems like a real world range of 250 km to 270 km (at 60 to 80 km/h) in normal drive mode with AC on can be expected.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LLl...=CitroenReview

[guptad42]

Citroen has shared a teaser of the upcoming C3 Aircross. An EV version is expected later: https://www.team-bhp.com/news/citroe...official-debut

If Citroen is awake and Stellantis bosses are not anti-EV, the longer, premium C3 Aircross presents a good opportunity to correct eC3 mistakes.

- EV battery prices have crashed in China where Citroen and other India-made EVs get their batteries. CATL and BYD have also announced higher energy densities in 2023 production batteries. Which means size and weight per KWH comes down.

- Citroen can consider fitting a larger liquid cooled LFP battery pack of 40-45KWH under the longer 7seater eC3 Aircross. Add a full feature list and strongly undercut Nexon EV Max on price.

- Offer an easy to market advantage. e.g. a model with ADAS just at/slightly under the price of highest selling Nexon EV Max variant. Alternatively, a good frunk by updating to a rear-wheel drive motor - it is much better in EVs at no additional cost e.g. there is no transmission tunnel required from the engine in the front to the rear axle. The compact motor itself sits on the rear axle. In fact, it can save money by allowing a simpler, cheaper front suspension and steering linkages. The wiring to a rear charger connector can be shorter. Plus, the car behaves better dynamically. Even die-hard front wheel drive champions like Volvo are shifting to rear wheel drive in EVs because of cost and drive benefits.

Our GST also plays in favour of 4.3m class EVs - the longer petrol C3 Aircross will lose small car benefits and will fall into a higher tax bracket, whereas 5% GST for EVs is not size limited! Gives you a bigger budget for batteries in EV version at similar price point. (This is also the reason Tata Motors is considering a longer version of electric Nexons, along with more platform changes to make it better suited to an EV. A Creta sized Nexon EV Ultra could be priced similarly to the petrol Creta. That will be a marketing coup!)

- Citroen can simultaneously do a quick correction on eC3 by announcing new pricing, add software features like cruise control and cosmetic improvements like the petrol Shine variant, and sell it as a monsoon special offer. Instead of a 1.5L price cut in the base variant from 11.5L to under 10L, eC3 can get 50K worth of premium features and a 75K-1L price drop. Create a buzz in the market if you want to succeed as a new player.

Citroen is a relatively unknown brand in India with only a few dealers. Failure of volume products like C3 and eC3 will kill the company's viability in a major growth market like India and sink all the investment made. Capture the market first and then look at raising prices gradually without hurting demand.

[sagsaw]

I don't advocate any manufacturer just because they are new should sell vehicles at loss or highly competitive prices.

Every manufacturer should stick to their strategy and plan BUT market insights should be taken into account.

[antonylejos]

I have noticed in many discussion forums that the Citroen C3 is often criticized as a failure, with suggestions on how Citroen can improve. However, I do not agree with this perspective.

Let's look at the facts from a different angle.

Firstly, the Citroen C3 is currently being sold in only 20 showrooms across India, with 2 variants available - Low and Mid. Now, if we compare this with the Maruti Wagon R, do you think Maruti showrooms in Bangalore sell both Lxi and Vxi variants of the Wagon R in large numbers every day?

I spoke to the Citroen showroom representatives in Bangalore and Kochi, both before and after buying the C3, and they are extremely happy with the sales numbers. Bangalore is selling approximately 5 cars per day, while Kochi is selling around 4 cars per day.

As more variants are introduced and the number of showrooms increases, I believe the sales numbers will easily reach 3000-4000 units from the current 1000 units.

From my perspective, Citroen is heading in the right direction. Personally, I was in the market for a lower variant of any car, as I have always believed that higher variants do not offer good value for money. For example, the lower variant of the Brezza, priced around 9-10 lakhs on-road, has the same engine and suspension as the higher variant priced at 17 lakhs on-road. I do not believe the additional fancy features offered in the higher variant are worth paying an extra 7-8 lakhs.

If I had a budget of 17 lakhs, I would have gone for the lower variant of the Harrier. In my opinion, only those with a similar mindset are opting for the lower variants of any car. Citroen has captured this particular segment of the market with the C3, and with the launch of higher variants in the future, they can also cater to those who are willing to pay for additional features. But each variant is technically a different product, and you cannot call one product as a failure for lack of another product.

[Sumedik]

Originally Posted by antonylejos

I have always believed that higher variants do not offer good value for money. For example, the lower variant of the Brezza, priced around 9-10 lakhs on-road, has the same engine and suspension as the higher variant priced at 17 lakhs on-road

Bang on! This subtle point is missed by many. A car, after all is a machine and the engine, transmission, suspension & overall build quality should take centerstage in purchase decisions and not the size of the touch screen etc !

[guptad42]

Originally Posted by antonylejos

Let's look at the facts from a different angle.

Firstly, the Citroen C3 is currently being sold in only 20 showrooms across India, with 2 variants available - Low and Mid. Now, if we compare this with the Maruti Wagon R, do you think Maruti showrooms in Bangalore sell both Lxi and Vxi variants of the Wagon R in large numbers every day?

Totally agreed. Citroen's decision making is still odd. Now, wouldn't you expect the company to target the car variants to maximize sales from these 20-30 dealers?

Even though these are mostly urban markets, Citroen chose to have the complexity of two different engine options on the C3 but did not launch an automatic!

If they were after the VFM segment, Citroen could have created a buzz by offering an affordable AT option starting from the base Live variant itself.

[Mortis]

Let's also not forget that Citroen had mentioned some time ago that they are already profitable. So it seems that the slow and steady approach is working for them. If I'm not mistaken GTO had mentioned this somewhere

[anu21v]

Originally Posted by guptad42

Totally agreed. Citroen's decision making is still odd. Now, wouldn't you expect the company to target the car variants to maximize sales from these 20-30 dealers?

Even though these are mostly urban markets, Citroen chose to have the complexity of two different engine options on the C3 but did not launch an automatic!

If they were after the VFM segment, Citroen could have created a buzz by offering an affordable AT option starting from the base Live variant itself.

My thinking is if they have like 20 dealers and selling 900 cars a month, that means a dealer throughput of 45 per month, and translates to 550 vehicles per annum. This is not bad sales at all. if this truly is the case, there seems to be some inherent demand may be either due to brand or Pocket friendly Variant strategy.

And if the above inference is true, i would rather demand their management to start expanding if not very fast then also atleast 10 dealers a quarter to reach 50 dealers by year end.