[vtires2018]

Should TATA Motors make supercharger stalls like TESLA?

TATA Motors owns largest share of EV market in India, more than 84%.
Tesla was also owned largest EV share in North America. Then they opened Tesla Super Charger Network. The result is for all of us to see. Tesla is now a dominant player in EVs leaps ahead of GM, FORD, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai etc

From the below graphic ( numbers may have increased*)
Tesla has now* more than 4000 Super charger stations
Tesla has now* more than 38,000 Super charger Connectors/DC fast charging plugs.

Should Tata with growing EV sales help their customers and growing EV eco system by developing EV sites/like fuel stations, and powering them with EV DC and "AC" fast
chargers ?

Please comment, what is the maximum DC and AC fast charging your EV cars can "charge with".



https://infogram.com/number-of-avail...h7z2l8qkqojx6o

https://www.autocarpro.in/analysis-s...-fy2023-113606

[echo77]

Yes, manufacturers should support their product by providing charging stations, or at least tying up with providers who do so.

What is the ratio of Tesla cars sold to available charging connectors?

Maybe a similar ratio can be used by Tata to create charging stations.

[Bhargav7]

I guess Tata Power is already on it. The numbers are not as high as Tesla, but they are just getting started. With time, I guess they will have a good enough network.

https://auto.hindustantimes.com/auto...633430445.html

[vtires2018]

Counted 819 DC only connectors/plugs per TATA Power website as of Dec 2022.
Tata has sold around 21,500 EV's so far (not sure of this number)

But main question is - Tesla has been opening the DC chargers around the highways, suburbs, parking spaces, etc.

Is Tata(or other EV Car seller) also following that approach ? They is a need to open more AC and DC chargers (dedicated spaces ) possibly away from busy areas. ( like a dedicated EV parking lots) 5 -10 KM before entering any city (all tiers)

or are they opening only in dealerships with motivation of increasing sales ?
Also question is how many are actually functional ?
ideas /comments/corrections ?

[lina]

Before setting up "Super"Chargers, Tata needs to make EVs that can be used on the highway comfortably. Currently all of Tatas cars charge at abysmal rates. The EV-max which is the fastest charges at 30kW. This basically translates to about 100km of range added in 30 min of charging if you drive <100kmph. So, if you drive at 90kmph for an hour, you will have to stop for 30 min to get back that range. The regular Nexon (21kW) and Tigor (18kW) have much worse stats in this regard. If you compare this with the ZS EV, it can add about 175km in 30 min. Not great but a lot more liveable.

Now, coming to the chargers installed, Tata chargers are usually slow, unreliable and at inconvenient locations. Networks like Zeon and Relux make it a point to install faster, more reliable chargers at restaurants on the highway making the whole process more seamless. As far as I am concerned, apart from Tesla, no other company has bothered about the charging network and how it works with the car. Tesla also routes the drivers to specific chargers and even optimises battery temperature to ensure faster charging and to minimise wait times. Other companies are nowhere near this type of integration, even abroad.

[Tucker48]

Indian govt has set some standards for battery and charging infrastructure which the industry is opposing as they say it will stifle innovation.

Why would a for profit company will install chargers on a large scale when it's going to be used by competition as well. I don't know cost economics of chargers but IMO, it won't be profitable in metros unless govt agencies give land.

And, Tesla is losing market share faster than anyone ever predicted. Plus the federal incentives 2022 aren't of much help either. Only one model falls under $55000 limit (correct me if I'm wrong)

So, IMO, these tasks should be taken over by the govt if they want it to be standardized.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by Tucker48

Indian govt has set some standards for battery and charging infrastructure which the industry is opposing as they say it will stifle innovation.

We are almost settled with CCS adapter, all cars from Tiago to EQS use the same adapter.

And, Tesla is losing market share faster than anyone ever predicted. Plus the federal incentives 2022 aren't of much help either. Only one model falls under $55000 limit (correct me if I'm wrong)

Tesla has to lose market share, no company in a highly competitive environment can sustain 70% market share for long, they may settle somewhere at 20% market share. While their market share is dropping, their growth is still >50% YoY, which includes factory shutdowns due to covid.

Below are vehicles qualified for incentives.

[guptad42]

Make AC slow charging in 7-20KW range common.

1. Tata/all electric car sellers in India should first make 7.2 KW level 2 AC home charger standard across the range. They can work with the charger manufacturers for cheaper designs. The rising volumes will also reduce costs. 3.3KW is just too slow and should not be used on 4 wheelers.

2. Tata Power and other charging networks can work with commercial parking spaces like malls, large offices, and also with residential buildings to install 11-20KW AC chargers in 5% of parking spots. The %age of parking lots with charging can be increased gradually over the years. Initial selection of spots for charging can be based on surveys of people who frequent the place, and EV sales trends in the catchment area. Avoid DC fast charging in covered areas, as long term safety could be a problem due to lack of maintenance.

For highway chargers, focus the investment to provide the best experience to most EV owners. Instead of a slow and poor experience everywhere. This is critical to sharply raise confidence in buying new EVs.

3. DC fast chargers on roads leading out from the top car buying cities to nearby cities and towns up to 500km range. EV charging stops at 30 minutes travel distance at highway speeds. So about 40km apart.

4. While western countries are going to 300-550KW DC fast charging or more, India should standardise on minimum 100 or 150 KW for DC fast charging. Peak charging rate in any car should not be less 2C. That'll allow adding 100-250km range in a brief chai/coffee stop, depending upon battery size. At that point, people will worry less about charging times and range anxiety.

[lina]

Originally Posted by guptad42

Make AC slow charging in 7-20KW range common.

1. Tata/all electric car sellers in India should first make 7.2 KW level 2 AC home charger standard across the range. They can work with the charger manufacturers for cheaper designs. The rising volumes will also reduce costs. 3.3KW is just too slow and should not be used on 4 wheelers.

I dont agree with the first statement. I have a ZS EV and infact most of the times I charge at 1.5kW. Leaving at this speed overnight for 10 hours will add about 100km of range which will usually be more than most people's daily commute. If everyone starts charging at 7kW, it will put unnecessary stress on the grid.

Charging slower will ensure that more cars can charge at the same time. Installed power generation capacity is fixed and its better to charge as slow as possible unless you are in a hurry.

[deep_bang]

Originally Posted by lina

Charging slower will ensure that more cars can charge at the same time. Installed power generation capacity is fixed and its better to charge as slow as possible unless you are in a hurry.

I would rephrase your statement to - the installed power distribution capacity is fixed as of now and by having slow chargers, more cars can make use of existing infrastructure than having to install brand new high capacity infrastructure.

And I fully agree with you. For the majority of people who have a 4 to 5 KW grid line already available at home, the easiest thing would be to use the grid overnight, and distribute the load over longer times.
In fact, ideally, the discoms should start time based discounting and charge lower prices at off-peak hours to encourage EV owners to use off peak hours to charge their cars. Then the load also will get distributed slowly over the day instead everyone charging at 8am or 6pm.

[lina]

Originally Posted by deep_bang

In fact, ideally, the discoms should start time based discounting and charge lower prices at off-peak hours to encourage EV owners to use off peak hours to charge their cars. Then the load also will get distributed slowly over the day instead everyone charging at 8am or 6pm.

Fully agree with you! Ive been restricting my charging to weekend day times as much as possible because I feel the grid will be less stressed at that time and a larger portion of the generated power might be coming from Solar.

[guptad42]

Originally Posted by lina

I dont agree with the first statement. I have a ZS EV and infact most of the times I charge at 1.5kW. Leaving at this speed overnight for 10 hours will add about 100km of range which will usually be more than most people's daily commute. If everyone starts charging at 7kW, it will put unnecessary stress on the grid.

Charging slower will ensure that more cars can charge at the same time. Installed power generation capacity is fixed and its better to charge as slow as possible unless you are in a hurry.

EV adoption is not just about hard technology. Please also look at customer mindset. What do we need if EVs have to become mass market products?

The 7KW level2 EVSE can help range anxiety go away for most buyers. The 7KW charger can easily take the battery from zero to full overnight on the proper 50KWh - 60KWh battery packs that's likely to be a common battery size by 2025 even in India. So, if your battery is nearly empty at end of the day, it will be full in the morning before you need it without going to any petrol pump. That's the charging anxiety it solves.

Of course, no need to charge at 7KW on the days you don't need it. The Level 2 AC chargers and your EVs give you that choice. Full 0-100% charge will not be needed frequently because the car will not run that much every day. So, either the car will just finish charging quickly, or the owners who want to do slow charge can easily set it. With most people not needing the full 7KW charging every night, it is easy to see it will not load the grid as much as you may have feared.

The grid stress challenge is also being resolved in other ways.

We tend to think of the electrical grid as a static/fixed thing. That was never true. Supply-demand conditions change continuously. For example: in our cities, the day's high power demand period is as much as 40-50% higher wattage than the low demand period on the same day. The grid and generation are sized for this peak power plus some buffer for maintenance downtime. All this extra generation is idled during low demand hours (over provisioning) because we have almost no grid scale electricity storage so far in India.

Grid electrification for EVs can be managed economically only if we move to smart grids - to enable smart charging when there is excess power (e.g. in the afternoon with lots of solar) or low demand (like late in the night). Charging the cars at higher safe speeds like 7KW during low demand periods means lower new investment needed in the transmission and generation capacity. Spreading slow charging over a long time can actually increase grid demand in already high demand hours e.g. EV still charging during morning peak hours because it did not finish charging around midnight when grid had so much excess capacity!

Another superpower of smart grids will be visible when we start adopting v2g or vehicle to grid. Then the batteries in millions of EVs connected to the grid can be used as a big distributed buffer to shift grid supply-demand imbalance during the day. Since we will typically use only a little of the battery daily, you can easily select via an app that you allow up to 20 or 30 or 40% of the battery to be used by the grid as backup, and the utility will pay you for that reserve capacity or deduct actual battery power used from your bill (like solar net metering). The grid can meet higher peak demand without adding the same amount of new peak time power generation. Because the additional power can come from the big battery buffer. Such energy storage dramatically lowers peak traded power prices on the power exchanges. It reduces cost of power for all us (but the profits made by the merchant power producers fall.) Such VPPs (virtual power plants, made of many distributed consumer batteries) are already being tested in many pilots (few hundred customers each) across the world. The technology works very well. Now regulators are trying to figure out the new grid management rules and who gets paid for what service on the grid.

We will still need large investment in new renewable generation and new grid capacity in India, but most of it will be for different reasons than EVs - replacing coal with renewables, natural increase in power consumption per person as Indian economy grows, a large increase in power demand due to industrial electrification as big polluting industries decarbonise, and for balancing supply-demand imbalances across different regions.

[ADI7YAK]

Sounds good doesn’t work. Tata’s most selling EVs i.e Nexon Prime, Tigor EV and now Tiago EV do not charge above 25kW. We shall call these Mildchargers.

[Tucker48]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

Below are vehicles qualified for incentives.
Attachment 2398332

Yes, I forgot the $80000 limit for SUV's, Vans and Trucks. But, how can model Y qualify for both the slabs. Anyways no model except for Model 3 rear wheel drive shows prices of less than $55000 on their website. I'm not accounting for discounts as there are reports that Tesla might be offering discounts due to low sales!

Quoting from IRS website in relation to model Y dilemma :-

Not exceed a manufacturer suggested retail price (MSRP) of
$80,000 for vans, sport utility vehicles and pickup trucks
$55,000 for other vehicles

Also MSRP means Manufacturer suggested retail price. It doesn't get more confusing than that.

These incentives are applicable for vehicles assembled in USA only. I wouldn't call such a market as highly competitive.

[Nikhil Beke]

Originally Posted by vtires2018

Should TATA Motors make supercharger stalls like TESLA?

Tesla was also owned largest EV share in North America. Then they opened Tesla Super Charger Network. The result is for all of us to see. Tesla is now a dominant player in EVs leaps ahead of GM, FORD, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai etc


Should Tata with growing EV sales help their customers and growing EV eco system by developing EV sites/like fuel stations, and powering them with EV DC and "AC" fast
chargers ?


https://infogram.com/number-of-avail...h7z2l8qkqojx6o

https://www.autocarpro.in/analysis-s...-fy2023-113606

Tata definitely should- that would definitely help EV adoption, easing off range anxiety.
Having said that, it doesn't have to be an exact Tesla model. They can have affordable, more numerous slow chargers- housing societies, hotels, public parking places. Having Tata power as a sister company helps immensely, and they can add roof-top solar panels/windmills, if merely to add to their 'green' credentials. I remember Mr Shailesh Chandra mentioning this during Tiago EV unveil.
But they definitely should put more fast and superfast (125kw onwards) chargers on highways and in their showrooms, possibly at a premium charging rates. That would simultaneously 1. Prevent the rush due to premium pricing, encouraging only genuinely needy travelers to charge here 2. The enterprise would be hugely profitable- keeping bean counter executives and Tata dealers like this happy and compliant-https://www.team-bhp.com/news/8-batt...-offers-theirs