[AulusGabinius]

Hi everyone, first post here, so I thought I'd do it on something I'm pretty excited about. Strong hybrids, and what I'd love to see in India with that tech.

So far, we've got basically two: the Toyota-Suzuki twins and the City EHEV. Drove both, and the performance versus fuel economy tradeoff almost isn't there. They are, in short, awesome. Sure, they could definitely be more refined, but they win in two key ways. The power and range are not compromised over CNG and EVs (FYI, I'm not a believer in battery electrics), but the fuel economy is fantastic as well. But so far they're basically a premium crossover SUV and a premium mid-size/full-size sedan. I'm curious to see what everyone would want to see with this tech. So far with what they sell overseas, personally I'd love to see the Toyota C-HR, the Honda Jazz, and maybe a Suzuki Alto or, best of all, my personal favourite the Swift to become a strong hybrid. Cheers, everyone, and looking forward to the petrolhead community!

[Chevyspark]

Strong hybrid engines in these car are imported components. 4-5lacs higher priced than ICEs. So, it doesn't make economic sense for any manufacturer to provide sub 4m car with strong hybrid. The small car market in India aka sub 4m cars are on downward trend or slowly dying segment. No new car launch is happening in this segment. So it seems like a wish which is hard to fulfill.

[AulusGabinius]

True, but I think eventually it will be indigenised if there's enough demand. That said, they may be dying now, but eventually India will probably follow the global trend and it should balance out, especially as roads improve. I don't see much of a drop in the premium small car demand, a Baleno for instance, or an i20 nios. The slump for the Jazz could be explained with it simply lagging behind the competition in features. Alto, Celerio, Kwid are probably too affordable for upgrades, so yes, no chance there.

[ajayc123]

Strong hybrids are a mature technology, well suited for congested city driving, as they are able to offer nice torque at lower speeds.

Scale, indegenization, and tax rationalization should help the cause.

My wishlist would be two things:

Bring a Plug in Hybrid (PHEV): Use the silent, low cost, torquey, electric for daily city driving, supplemented by ICE for the longer haul, completely devoid of range anxiety.

Democratize: Bring the strong hybrid powertrain to the lower segments ie 10-15 lakh to scale exponentially.

[Chevyspark]

Originally Posted by AulusGabinius

True, but I think eventually it will be indigenised if there's enough demand. That said, they may be dying now, but eventually India will probably follow the global trend and it should balance out, especially as roads improve. I don't see much of a drop in the premium small car demand, a Baleno for instance, or an i20 nios. The slump for the Jazz could be explained with it simply lagging behind the competition in features. Alto, Celerio, Kwid are probably too affordable for upgrades, so yes, no chance there.

My view is bit different on this. Firstly, strong/proper hybrids are taxed at 43% vs sub 4m at 29%. Secondly, a proper hybrid has all basic components as ICE car in addition to electric motor single/dual and battery pack for mild hybrid GA which costs 80k and for full hybrid 2.25lac is the price. The orange cables for electricity transfer and controller are costly too. Thirdly, reduced boot space for keeping battery safe, a larger area is provided to it for air passage and brackets for safety that significantly reduce boot space . The strong hybrids are costlier to manufacture than pure EVs worldwide. Therefore, in India with such tax structure and import duties, I don't think small hybrids will see light of the day.

[AulusGabinius]

Originally Posted by Chevyspark

My view is bit different on this. Firstly, strong/proper hybrids are taxed at 43% vs sub 4m at 29%. Secondly, a proper hybrid has all basic components as ICE car in addition to electric motor single/dual and battery pack for mild hybrid GA which costs 80k and for full hybrid 2.25lac is the price. The orange cables for electricity transfer and controller are costly too. Thirdly, reduced boot space for keeping battery safe, a larger area is provided to it for air passage and brackets for safety that significantly reduce boot space . The strong hybrids are costlier to manufacture than pure EVs worldwide. Therefore, in India with such tax structure and import duties, I don't think small hybrids will see light of the day.

All good points. However, I think there's been something about revising tax rates according to emissions. If that happens, then maybe the taxes could be lowered. As far as battery packs go, if lithium packs are expensive, Toyota can fall back on the Prius's Ni-MH packs. They're cheaper, the software is cheaper, but the rest is true, they will be more expensive than an ICE only car. But I did a cost-based comparison between the Grand Vitara strong hybrid, the Creta petrol auto and the Seltos diesel auto, and the trade-off didn't seem too bad. If someone's ok with paying a premium for a BEV, I doubt they're going to not at least consider a strong hybrid in a similar price range.

[Chevyspark]

With increase in investments, market share, popularity and EV line-up by Tata & M&M. Cut in taxes for Strong hybrid is a distant dream. Indigenous car manufacturers have strong lobby, they are not investing in hybrids and are going EV only path. So, IMHO tax cut for strong hybrid will never happen.

Moreover, strong hybrids are overhyped. They may never cross EVs in sales chart. There production volume may remain similar to any CKD. Honda have not produced approx 1000 HEVs. Toyota & Suzuki have dispatched less than 1000 vehicles till date. The hype is going to be vapourised in the next few months.

[Mustang_Boss]

In my opinion, Everything is wrong with the current crop of Hybrids available in India.

- A country like India should use Silver oxide or NiMh batteries in Hybrids, but the current one's are using Lithium ions, which are expensive to recycle, replace & their life is compromised in a hot country.

- Companies do not have the incentive to use NiMh or Silver oxide batteries in small cars as the vehicle weight goes dramatically up and the final efficiency improvement could be abysmal and the cost could go up drastically.

Hybrids are reliable, efficient, but considering the efficiency levels we seek from ultra small cars, i guess it might not be possible.

Now coming to EV's,
I would like the companies to sell the car by mentioning the cost of replacement battery in the Advertisement. Only then we will get to know the true sales of EV's. Till then, they are just cashing in on buyers ignorance.

All those who are going to curse me, A Tesla will always have much longer battery life because , it got a bigger battery and the weather conditions it operates in are colder. A tata will never last not even half as long as a Tesla, because its operating in a much hotter environment, with just 33% of battery of a Tesla.

[aim120]

Originally Posted by Mustang_Boss

Now coming to EV's,
I would like the companies to sell the car by mentioning the cost of replacement battery in the Advertisement. Only then we will get to know the true sales of EV's. Till then, they are just cashing in on buyers ignorance.

All those who are going to curse me, A Tesla will always have much longer battery life because , it got a bigger battery and the weather conditions it operates in are colder. A tata will never last not even half as long as a Tesla, because its operating in a much hotter environment, with just 33% of battery of a Tesla.

The cost of Nexon EV 30kwh pack was Rs 7.47L in october 2021 in boodmo, today its Rs 7.10L and this can be due to two reasons either the price of battery has gone down or the GST has gone down.
We know the GST for lithium battery is 18%, now the price in boodmo mimicks as if the GST was cut from 18% to 12%. There was some chatter in 2018 about gst cut on replacement battery.

Now coming to your point about batteries not lasting that long in our hotter conditions. These batteries are all liquid cooled. Even if the car is off, Its battery is still within normal operating condition.
The same cannot be said for a Tesla in snowy conditions, which causes a significant capacity loss, they use battery power to heat the battery pack. We are blessed to not have snow in 90% of India

Also a Nexon LFP battery would out last a Tesla model S and model X battery or any Tesla that uses NMC or NCA chemistry.

[Mustang_Boss]

Originally Posted by aim120

The cost of Nexon EV 30kwh pack was Rs 7.47L in october 2021 in boodmo, today its Rs 7.10L and this can be due to two reasons either the price of battery has gone down or the GST has gone down.

Now coming to your point about batteries not lasting that long in our hotter conditions. These batteries are all liquid cooled. Even if the car is off, Its battery is still within normal operating condition.
The same cannot be said for a Tesla in snowy conditions, which causes a significant capacity loss, they use battery power to heat the battery pack. We are blessed to not have snow in 90% of India

My point was never about quality. The Bigger the battery is, the less number of cycles it goes through for say 100000 kms.

Regarding Tesla battery reliability. Heating is easy and it just needs a coil to heat up the coolant and rotate it. Where as cooling is expensive. If you use the same battery power to cool it, its going to run through more cycles.

I am not skeptic about Tata or other EV's. All I am trying to say is there are a different set of challenges for EV's in southern Asia and Middle east.

[aim120]

Originally Posted by Mustang_Boss

My point was never about quality. The Bigger the battery is, the less number of cycles it goes through for say 100000 kms.

Regarding Tesla battery reliability. Heating is easy and it just needs a coil to heat up the coolant and rotate it. Where as cooling is expensive. If you use the same battery power to cool it, its going to run through more cycles.

I am not skeptic about Tata or other EV's. All I am trying to say is there are a different set of challenges for EV's in southern Asia and Middle east.

Tesla no longer uses heating coil to raise the temperature they use a heat pump, even a Atto 3 uses heat pump.

But is struggling to keep up with the freezing temperatures.
https://electrek.co/2022/01/12/tesla...failing-badly/

Remember heat pump takes heat from the atmosphere to heat up the evaporator coil. It just doesn't work well at cold temperatures.

But all the current heat pump air conditioners work well in middle east.

As far as the small battery used even in Tiago. If the low end variant with 19kwh pack which is projected to give a range of 160km real world is cycled upto 3000 cycles, that is still 4,50,000 km of driving calculated at 150km/cycle , at which point the battery would still have 70% to 80% charge left.

To give you a practical example of LFP battery, the Sony fortelion battery pack which is being tested daily from 100% to 10%, still has a battery SOH of 80% capacity even after 3600 cycles. As seen in the below link.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/elect...ml#post5405589 (All the basics about Electric Cars)

[AulusGabinius]

Originally Posted by Chevyspark

With increase in investments, market share, popularity and EV line-up by Tata & M&M. Cut in taxes for Strong hybrid is a distant dream. Indigenous car manufacturers have strong lobby, they are not investing in hybrids and are going EV only path. So, IMHO tax cut for strong hybrid will never happen.

Moreover, strong hybrids are overhyped. They may never cross EVs in sales chart. There production volume may remain similar to any CKD. Honda have not produced approx 1000 HEVs. Toyota & Suzuki have dispatched less than 1000 vehicles till date. The hype is going to be vapourised in the next few months.

Personally I think that might not be the case, since if Suzuki, Toyota and Honda prove market viability, Hyundai and Kia will not be far behind. Tata and Mahindra will struggle unless they can source the tech too. Battery electric cars, IMHO probably won't ever supersede other available options for long distances, and certainly not on lithium batteries of any kind, but within cities certainly. Hybrids are only ever meant as a transition, not the end point anyway, so I think the government would tax them somewhere between EVs and ICEs. At least that makes some sense. Of course, the government doesn't always make sense, but on occasion they do. Either way, the sales over the coming year will prove market value...or not. Heck, even if hybrids can replace diesels it might still be a win for greening vehicles.

[GTO]

I like the hybrid implementation of the Honda City, but the one from Maruti-Toyota is a level lower. Regardless, I think hybrids are "today's" solution & EVs are a distant "tomorrow". In terms of going mainstream, strong hybrids can easily double or even triple the fuel economy of any car, simply because they are designed for exactly our driving conditions. Hybrids are best in the city & their advantage is the strongest in bumper-to-bumper traffic.

Now that Maruti, Toyota & Honda have taken the lead, I'm sure it's going to trickle lower down the food chain. Once the components are localised, I don't see why anyone with high running would hesitate to pay 1 - 1.5 lakhs extra for a strong hybrid. Remember, we are a culture that has historically paid 1 - 2 lakhs extra for the economy of diesel engines.

[Chevyspark]

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Thanks for the support & understanding

[Turbohead]

Strong hybrid is the new diesel. Period.

Individuals with high running who currently use diesels and looking to replace their vehicles are having a tough time thanks to the demonization and elimination of diesels apart from the inherent unreliability of the existing options thanks to DPF issues etc.

With a strong hybrid, it kills many birds with one stone - lower emissions inside the city, highway like fuel economy inside the city and is certainly less prone to having its life shortened by the NGT.

Only the price is the problem and the resulting loss in boot space but there's nothing impossible with a well thought out hybrid designed from the ground up. Strong Hybrids, IMO, are the more practical option for the next 20 years until we get the charging infrastructure and technology to match turn around times of fossil fueled vehicles especially taxis where charging time is loss in revenue.