[Fiero]

Originally Posted by ferrarirules

Thanks for the clarification. Based on the numbers that you have provided, per km CO2 emissions of EV is 112 gms to 131 gms. And a hybrid car produces between 120 to 140 per km CO2 emissions.

The numbers for EV can go to even zero if you have a solar implementation in your home or society. Also as the grid percentage of renewables increases this will come down. The same is not possible for ICE cars.

I am not saying that you are against EVs, I am just sharing my opinion

Slightly conservative calculation for hybrids I would think. Most folks I know easily get 19-24kmpl from they HEV Citys and Hyryders, which means CO2 emissions of 97-121g/km. Heck, even the Innova HEVs are getting 16 kmpl. But i guess to each his own on the assumptions.

Optimistically, the CO2 emissions per kwh may go down to 0.48kg/kWh by 2030. If this becomes a reality, then the typical EV (which i've assumed typically operates between 5.5-7.5km/kWh) CO2 emissions could drop to 64-87g/km. For now, as per my assumptions, it is 105-143g/km.

You are right about using solar in your own society/house. Hopefully rooftop solar will catch on in a big way.

As a side note, for more premium cars the story is a bit more interesting. Autocar took the Volvo XC40 Recharge for a spin and was able to get an estimated 300km from its 78kwh battery. That's just 3.84 km/kwh or 205g/km of CO2/km (only 11.2kmpl equivalent). Even with some spirited driving, I'd imagine it would have been outdone by the XC40 petrol itself ! Strange.

[Shresth_EV]

Originally Posted by Fiero

The MIT article does not reflect the streets of India, or the kind of cars we drive. If we limit the analysis to CO2 emitted during operation of the vehicle, then the following arises:

This means that for every kWh we use from the grid, we emit 85+grams of CO2, along with NOx, SOx, etc. which we will not get into. This info is available on the website of the Central Electricity Authority.

here you can see the estimated emissions intensity per kWh as 790grams/kWh:https://energy.economictimes.indiati...tters/99062580.

Interestingly, the linked article itself does not present ANY reference to the source of this value other than the name of the agency.

Fortunately, this one working paper I dug up from ICCT does have the said references.

If we consider the grid usage in charging, the 100% coal scenario (worst case), the avg grid emissions as of 2020 was 614gCO2/kWh or 0.614gCO2/Wh. (Figures taken from page 5 graph of this pdf : https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploa...apr2021-01.pdf)

It pits grid at even better situation than it is acc to your linked article which doesn't seem to have any references.

An EV like Nexon can get efficiency of 120Wh/km

An EV like Tiago can get even better at 100Wh/km

By this calculation, a 100% coal powered Nexon EV has a running emission of 74gCO2/km.

For Tiago EV it’s 62gCO2/km.

so that's an 8% adjustment, but still, hybrids would still beat them in most cases in terms of overall CO2 emissions as of today.

Yes, but according to the linked pdf, reduction on the Ioniq 5's trip would come to 28%, not 8%, ie 93g/km, and bring required breakeven mileage up for ICE too. Then it becomes even closer of a call, more about how you drive (efficiently vs speed demon) than power source.

Idk if 28% gain can come from strong hybrid, especially on highway where battery charge comes from engine rather than city where regen braking does the job.

I could not find any source for the mileage-emission equivalence you showed either, only this one document which has emissions of some mild hybrid cars from Maruti.

Pdf pg11, indexed pg6 : https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploa...s-wp-FINAL.pdf

All Maruti cars except baleno SHVS are above 100gCO2/km. Baleno makes the cut barely at 99.6gCO2/km. Scross, XL6, Ciaz, all are in 120-130g/km range.

2. A typical Nexon, say, in the city gets 250-300 km on its 40 kWh battery. This means 6.25-7.5 km/kWh or 113-136 g CO2/km. This is equal a petrol car which gives 17-20kmpl, which hybrids are easily able to match.

You are off by 10kWh. You're using battery capacity of nexon EV max with range of prime.

Prime which I have has consistently given me 250km in city and 240km on LKO-PRYJ highway (which is single lane for 110+ km so I can't exceed 60-70kmph on that section)

I have exact trip readings, 223km on trip with 18km remaining, door to door from MNNIT Allahabad to Home.

Anyway, nexon EV max can easily give 300-350km. So either fix the battery or the range. Not that it matters anyway, since the linked pdf with direct reference pits the EVs at half the emissions of what you calculated.

I'm not saying mine are gospel, yours are baseless, all I'm saying is that the economictimes article you linked is using 790g/kWh without any references but the ICCT pdf is having complete footnotes for all data points, thats all.

Please see if there is any error on that end

Originally Posted by ferrarirules

And a hybrid car produces between 120 to 140 per km CO2 emissions.

That should be more or less in line with the second ICCT pdf I linked, while Unfortunately its an older article when GV/Hyry/Hycross had not been launched.

GV/Hyry may lower this figure but hycross being larger and heavier, I doubt. The aerodynamic camry seems to score 104.5g/km but Vellfire it at 145g.

[Fiero]

Originally Posted by Shresth_EV

Interestingly, the linked article itself does not present ANY reference to the source of this value other than the name of the agency.

Fortunately, this one working paper I dug up from ICCT does have the said references.

If we consider the grid usage in charging, the 100% coal scenario (worst case), the avg grid emissions as of 2020 was 614gCO2/kWh or 0.614gCO2/Wh. (Figures taken from page 5 graph of this pdf : https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploa...apr2021-01.pdf)

It pits grid at even better situation than it is acc to your linked article which doesn't seem to have any references.

An EV like Nexon can get efficiency of 120Wh/km

An EV like Tiago can get even better at 100Wh/km

By this calculation, a 100% coal powered Nexon EV has a running emission of 74gCO2/km.

For Tiago EV it’s 62gCO2/km.


Yes, but according to the linked pdf, reduction on the Ioniq 5's trip would come to 28%, not 8%, ie 93g/km, and bring required breakeven mileage up for ICE too. Then it becomes even closer of a call, more about how you drive (efficiently vs speed demon) than power source.

Idk if 28% gain can come from strong hybrid, especially on highway where battery charge comes from engine rather than city where regen braking does the job.

I could not find any source for the mileage-emission equivalence you showed either, only this one document which has emissions of some mild hybrid cars from Maruti.

Pdf pg11, indexed pg6 : https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploa...s-wp-FINAL.pdf

All Maruti cars except baleno SHVS are above 100gCO2/km. Baleno makes the cut barely at 99.6gCO2/km. Scross, XL6, Ciaz, all are in 120-130g/km range.



You are off by 10kWh. You're using battery capacity of nexon EV max with range of prime.

Prime which I have has consistently given me 250km in city and 240km on LKO-PRYJ highway (which is single lane for 110+ km so I can't exceed 60-70kmph on that section)

I have exact trip readings, 223km on trip with 18km remaining, door to door from MNNIT Allahabad to Home.

Anyway, nexon EV max can easily give 300-350km. So either fix the battery or the range. Not that it matters anyway, since the linked pdf with direct reference pits the EVs at half the emissions of what you calculated.

I'm not saying mine are gospel, yours are baseless, all I'm saying is that the economictimes article you linked is using 790g/kWh without any references but the ICCT pdf is having complete footnotes for all data points, thats all.

Please see if there is any error on that end



That should be more or less in line with the second ICCT pdf I linked, while Unfortunately its an older article when GV/Hyry/Hycross had not been launched.

GV/Hyry may lower this figure but hycross being larger and heavier, I doubt. The aerodynamic camry seems to score 104.5g/km but Vellfire it at 145g.

Wow. Your calculations are wholly and totally off. Lets go the source itself, shall we ? https://cea.nic.in/wp-content/upload...n__2021_22.pdf.

1. As you will see from the report, coal power plants produce almost 1000 grams of CO2/kWh; the figure of 614grams/kWh is totally ridiculous.

2. You may use you own assumptions for EV range. I've had several folks in Mumbai and Bangalore tell me 300 km on the 40kWh battery pack is the max they see on the Nexon EV Max in the city, with spirited driving on the highway reducing range quite a bit. That's why I've taken a broad assumption of 5.5-7.5km/kWh considering different driving situations. You may take 8 if that's what you get.

3. Even if we now consider 710grams/kWh to be the baseline CO2 emission from electricity generation as the report seems to suggest, the following calculations would apply:

- EV efficiency 5.5km/kWh - 130g/km (17.75kmpl petrol equivalent)
- EV efficiency 7.5km/kWh - 95g/km (24.3 kmpl petrol equivalent)

4. Every liter of petrol burned emits around 2310grams of CO2 (unadjusted for E10). You will find plenty of sources for this. Thus:
- 19kmpl = 121g/km
- 24kmpl = 97g/km

5. Similarly, burning 1 liter of diesel emits roughly 2680 grams of CO2

6. Again - you may use other assumptions for efficiency. This is just my view based on efficiency figures I have seen reported. As batteries get heavier, efficiency decreases. So a Hyundai Ioniq 5 will never be anywhere as efficient as a Tiago, and Nexon EV will also get more km/kWh than an EV Max. Most EV taxi drivers I've asked in Mumbai get 200km from the 26.5 kw Tiago. Again, you may have had different experiences.

7. The ICCT numbers are ridiculous, using some sterile test conditions. No baleno gives 23kmpl (as assumed in this paper) real world and the camry hybrid also not give 22kmpl (as also assumed in this paper) real world. They also suggest that the BMW 7 series PHEV can achieve 40kmpl - certainly not over a 800 km highway drive where the battery can only do so much. I am trying to arrive at a more real world range.

8. As another real-world example, lets take this Kashmir to Kanyakumari trip that Evo did with the Nexon. Used approx. 600 units of electricity for 4000km, i.e. 6.66km/kWh (21.7kmpl petrol equivalent).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSvXnjcw5DA

Hope this explains where I am coming from. Good to continue drilling this down though. That's why I like this forum.

[Shresth_EV]

Originally Posted by Fiero

Wow. Your calculations are wholly and totally off. Lets go the source itself, shall we ? https://cea.nic.in/wp-content/upload...n__2021_22.pdf.

1. As you will see from the report, coal power plants produce almost 1000 grams of CO2/kWh; the figure of 614grams/kWh is totally ridiculous.

Still, I'd like to point out that the ICCT doc with 614g/kWh figure is from 2020, which had lowest coal emissions in the 2013-23 period which is shown on indexed page 25 of your linked doc from cea.nic.in

The sources of all the data points are given in the footnotes of the ICCT doc, please refer to the doc linked by me.

4. Every liter of petrol burned emits around 2310grams of CO2 (unadjusted for E10). You will find plenty of sources for this. Thus:
- 19kmpl = 121g/km
- 24kmpl = 97g/km

5. Similarly, burning 1 liter of diesel emits roughly 2680 grams of CO2

I'm a bit confused here. You're taking carbon % by composition as a way to calculate vehicle emissions, thats what you're saying?

In that sense, ARAI (even with the optimistic mileage figures), or EPA/WLTP, who are using actual tailpipe emissions while driving, for the regulatory green light, are using "overestimated" figures?

Because if this was the universally acceptable thing, we won't have cars running around with emission test kits, they'd just whip out their Casio calcs and be done with it. In that sense, should we not then do the same for coal? The numbers should surely hold up, no?

Bituminous coal, on the other hand, has an average carbon content of approximately 66%. Since 66% of 1 kg is 660 g, there are about 660 g of carbon atoms in 1 kilo of bituminous coal. Burning 1 kg of bituminous coal will produce 2.42 kg of carbon dioxide

1 kg coal equivalent corresponds to a value specified as 7,000 kilocalories (7,000 kcal ~ 29.3 MJ ~ 8.141 kWh)

If we apply the same calculation method as you did for power plants, then it comes to JUST 297g/kWh, as ridiculous as that number is, I am confused as to why the same should be applicable as a blanket value to thousands of different engines, particularly hybrids which differ in the operation cycle ie Otto vs Atkinson.

Again, let me clarify, I'm not saying this 297 number is true, I'm just trying to see if the analogy works when applied to coal, but clearly it isn't working. It defies logic why should emission testing need so much R&D when it could be as easy as taking standard values of carbon content in fuel and doing stoichiometry on it.

So a Hyundai Ioniq 5 will never be anywhere as efficient as a Tiago, and Nexon EV will also get more km/kWh than an EV Max.

I never said it will pollute less due to more efficiency, rather due to cleaner grid due to the ICCT figures.

Most EV taxi drivers I've asked in Mumbai get 200km from the 26.5 kw Tiago.

There is no Tiago sold for comm. use, you're again confusing the XpressT which is tigor commerical version, Tiago comes in 19.2 and 24kWh, not 26.5.
The XpressT uses 72V DC architecture which has more losses compared to a higher voltage architecture like the 300-400V industry standard which still has more losses than 800V upcoming architectures (used in Ioniq5, EV6, taycan)

7. The ICCT numbers are ridiculous, using some sterile test conditions. No baleno gives 23kmpl (as assumed in this paper) hybrid also not give 22kmpl real world.

So that further means that the Regulatory tested numbers should be an underestimation and the carbon content formula based approach is more accurate?
That should be a relevation to the govt that the cars are polluting more than ARAI said they would, even if its under the cutoff figure for compliance.

They also suggest that the BMW 7 series PHEV can achieve 40kmpl - certainly not over a 800 km highway drive

I think it should be common knowledge by now that PHEV mileage is quoted as the electric range + gas mileage, since thats the way it can give highest mileage on paper. Advertising Combined mode will fall short of this figure, why'd they use a worse mileage figure for marketing?

Good to continue drilling this down though. That's why I like this forum.

Same. Hopefully in this pursuit, we can arrive at a clear picture through combined effort.

[Fiero]

Still, I'd like to point out that the ICCT doc with 614g/kWh figure is from 2020, which had lowest coal emissions in the 2013-23 period which is shown on indexed page 25 of your linked doc from cea.nic.in

The sources of all the data points are given in the footnotes of the ICCT doc, please refer to the doc linked by me.

I'm not sure I see where you are coming from here. The CEA doc is pretty clear at para 5 and Annexure 1 about the weighted average CO2 emissions, its 975grams/kwh for coal, 815grams/kwh for all conventional sources and 715grams/kwh for all sources combined. Individual plants may vary wildly in emissions, but I think its best to represent the average based on total electricity generation of the country. Be it to run an AC or to charge a car, the actual power drawn will also vary wildly based on the closes source of power, but all we can do is average things out.

I'm a bit confused here. You're taking carbon % by composition as a way to calculate vehicle emissions, thats what you're saying?

In that sense, ARAI (even with the optimistic mileage figures), or EPA/WLTP, who are using actual tailpipe emissions while driving, for the regulatory green light, are using "overestimated" figures?

Because if this was the universally acceptable thing, we won't have cars running around with emission test kits, they'd just whip out their Casio calcs and be done with it. In that sense, should we not then do the same for coal? The numbers should surely hold up, no?

As far as CO2 emissions go, burning up 1 liter of petrol or diesel, emits a finite amount of CO2. See these websites as examples. https://natural-resources.canada.ca/...tsheet_6_e.pdf and https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/gr...ams%20of%20CO2.

So yes, CO2 emissions are a factor of distance driven for every liter. But ARAI and EPA are not testing only for CO2. For NOx, SOx and other things, it is probably not a finite, which is where DPF and other tech probably come in, but leaving that discussion aside.

If we apply the same calculation method as you did for power plants, then it comes to JUST 297g/kWh, as ridiculous as that number is, I am confused as to why the same should be applicable as a blanket value to thousands of different engines, particularly hybrids which differ in the operation cycle ie Otto vs Atkinson.

Again, let me clarify, I'm not saying this 297 number is true, I'm just trying to see if the analogy works when applied to coal, but clearly it isn't working. It defies logic why should emission testing need so much R&D when it could be as easy as taking standard values of carbon content in fuel and doing stoichiometry on it.

You could apply a similar calculation to power plants if you knew the exact grade of coal and the CO2 they produce per kg. Again, for power plants also there are other harmful effluents for which the same calculation doesn't work, and there are other technologies, like flue-gas-desulphurization which work to reduce other emissions.

I never said it will pollute less due to more efficiency, rather due to cleaner grid due to the ICCT figures.

Agreed. As the grid gets cleaner, so do EVs.

There is no Tiago sold for comm. use, you're again confusing the XpressT which is tigor commerical version, Tiago comes in 19.2 and 24kWh, not 26.5.
The XpressT uses 72V DC architecture which has more losses compared to a higher voltage architecture like the 300-400V industry standard which still has more losses than 800V upcoming architectures (used in Ioniq5, EV6, taycan)

My bad. I meant the Tigor based EV, the XpressT 24kwh.

So that further means that the Regulatory tested numbers should be an underestimation and the carbon content formula based approach is more accurate?
That should be a relevation to the govt that the cars are polluting more than ARAI said they would, even if its under the cutoff figure for compliance.

Well, in the real world, it is safe to assume that many people get only 65%-75% of ARAI efficiency in city driving, so yes, correspondingly, cars are more polluting that they are made out to be in test conditions. The government is well aware of this, but they have to rely on some standard to report.

I think it should be common knowledge by now that PHEV mileage is quoted as the electric range + gas mileage, since thats the way it can give highest mileage on paper. Advertising Combined mode will fall short of this figure, why'd they use a worse mileage figure for marketing?

But may hardly be a representation of real world use. You could very well drive to work and back through the week on EV mode on the 50-60km electric range it has, and enjoy the full power of the gasoline motor on the weekends. However, I feel this is a great tech for India.

Same. Hopefully in this pursuit, we can arrive at a clear picture through combined effort.

Good to see some experts pitch in.

[ferrarirules]

Having read all the point of views. I can conclude the following

1. One can safely say that with today's grid composition. Electric vehicles and Hybrid vehicles do almost similar CO2 emission. Just that one does it where we live and other does it in remote areas where major population doesn't live
2. More we add renewable sources of energy, cleaner the electric car will be to drive. People with roof top solar setup are already doing that.

Now coming to the fact that future for strong hybrids is very robust.

1. Why do Toyota/Maruti have two premium models on the hybrid technology? Why is the technology not being implemented in mass market cars. Example - Baleno/Glanza, XL6/Rumion, Brezza should get it. There is no roadmap to add hybrid to these cars.

2. Why are manufacturers like Hyundai/Kia second in sales numbers in India not investing in hybrid technology in India? They have hybrid technology outside India on sale.

3. Why didn't Toyota bring PHEVs to India which are much more relevant for the Indian car scene?

[Fiero]

Originally Posted by ferrarirules

Having read all the point of views. I can conclude the following

1. One can safely say that with today's grid composition. Electric vehicles and Hybrid vehicles do almost similar CO2 emission. Just that one does it where we live and other does it in remote areas where major population doesn't live
2. More we add renewable sources of energy, cleaner the electric car will be to drive. People with roof top solar setup are already doing that.

Now coming to the fact that future for strong hybrids is very robust.

1. Why do Toyota/Maruti have two premium models on the hybrid technology? Why is the technology not being implemented in mass market cars. Example - Baleno/Glanza, XL6/Rumion, Brezza should get it. There is no roadmap to add hybrid to these cars.

2. Why are manufacturers like Hyundai/Kia second in sales numbers in India not investing in hybrid technology in India? They have hybrid technology outside India on sale.

3. Why didn't Toyota bring PHEVs to India which are much more relevant for the Indian car scene?

Now this will have a plethora of reasons, many of them beyond my depth. Some of them purely to do with each OEM's perceived the profitability of the Indian market, in particular for some like like Toyota who has traditionally been happy with its Innovas and Fortuners and not as aggressive as Hyundai.

The Indian government also never did anything to promote hybrids. Hybrids get no incentive for fairly noticeable emissions reduction.

Perhaps strong hybrid tech in smaller cars (sub 4m) isn't as feasible as EVs. Imagine a top end hybrid Venue costing 18-19 lacs Mumbai? Would the efficiency gains be worth it? On the other hand, you could go about your business quite well in the city with a 15-25kwh battery in a small car which in the long run may be more cost efficient.

If you go to the other end of the spectrum though, things are more interesting. Larger vehicles like the Ioniq 5, C40 Recharge, BMW ix have relatively large and expensive batteries. Imagine a battery powered Innova trying to get 400+km real world range, the battery and added cost would also be mammoth; perhaps hybrids just work better here from a cost perspective, for the manufacturer and the consumer.

[electric_eel]

Originally Posted by Fiero

There is a difference between installed capacity (which is what you are quoting), and actual MUs generated and sent to the grid. In energy terms over the course of a year, a 100 MW wind project generates only 22-25MWh x 365 equivalent of energy.

Here you can see India's renewable energy contribution pegged at 12.3%: https://www.livemint.com/news/india/...179203975.html, and here you can see the estimated emissions intensity per kWh as 790grams/kWh:https://energy.economictimes.indiati...tters/99062580.

The 12.3 % that you quote does not include Hydro and Nuclear energy (which amounts to another 10 % ). I think they wanted to exclude hydro and nuclear energy because of other ill effects it has on environment

Originally Posted by Fiero

Good to see some experts pitch in.

I did not go over the numbers carefully but something does not add up. Here is my reason. I am assuming by hybrid you mean plug in hybrid. Now the plugin part is the same as EV so what ever emission is present in EV should be the same. And the rest is petrol any way.

Also if the charging happens during running, there should be an overall loss in the K.E - Regen system any way which i think gives at the best 0.7 precent. So I do not see how hybrids can be better than EV (or even close to EV). there might be some unrealistic assumption that has come up some where or there is an assumption. The other possibility is that Coal Plants are significantly bad compared to Petrol engine which I am not really sure about. All said and done Coal plants should have the economy of scale

[volkman10]

'Electrified' flex Fuel Car coming- Innova Hycross?

[Fiero]

Originally Posted by electric_eel

The 12.3 % that you quote does not include Hydro and Nuclear energy (which amounts to another 10 % ). I think they wanted to exclude hydro and nuclear energy because of other ill effects it has on environment

I did not go over the numbers carefully but something does not add up. Here is my reason. I am assuming by hybrid you mean plug in hybrid. Now the plugin part is the same as EV so what ever emission is present in EV should be the same. And the rest is petrol any way.

Also if the charging happens during running, there should be an overall loss in the K.E - Regen system any way which i think gives at the best 0.7 precent. So I do not see how hybrids can be better than EV (or even close to EV). there might be some unrealistic assumption that has come up some where or there is an assumption. The other possibility is that Coal Plants are significantly bad compared to Petrol engine which I am not really sure about. All said and done Coal plants should have the economy of scale

1. Yes you are right. But the CEA (link in my previous post) takes into account all sources of power generation (and emission) to come up with its estimates, i.e. 710-715g/kwh generated. I'm sure there is some analysis of other pollutants (SOx,NOx, etc. as well, but I haven't really looked into it.

2. I was talking about strong self-charging hybrids with small 1-3kw battery packs which spend a lot of their running time in the city with the ICE acting like a generator and not powering the wheels, like the Honda City HEV. Seem to comfortably manage mileage in the early 20s in the city. I think what you speak of are plug-in hybrids which can do 50-70 km in EV mode when fully charged. There aren't any mainstream examples of this in the Indian market.

[electric_eel]

Originally Posted by Fiero

1. Yes you are right. But the CEA (link in my previous post) takes into account all sources of power generation (and emission) to come up with its estimates, i.e. 710-715g/kwh generated. I'm sure there is some analysis of other pollutants (SOx,NOx, etc. as well, but I haven't really looked into it.

2. I was talking about strong self-charging hybrids with small 1-3kw battery packs which spend a lot of their running time in the city with the ICE acting like a generator and not powering the wheels, like the Honda City HEV. Seem to comfortably manage mileage in the early 20s in the city. I think what you speak of are plug-in hybrids which can do 50-70 km in EV mode when fully charged. There aren't any mainstream examples of this in the Indian market.

Here is a rough calculation that I did under which BEVs can be worse
of than ICEs (the hybrid part of it does not matter really).


1. Almost 100% of the electricity is generated from thermal plants.

2. The thermal plants has the same efficacy (measured in CO₂ emission
per kWh (1 unit) of electric energy generated.


In this scenario a BEV is like an ICE for charging the batteries and
then using the battery+motor system to drive the car. Let η by the
efficiency of the BEV charging system + electric motor. So 1 unit of
electricty will translate into η unit of motive energy through the EV
drive train + battery which means that 1 unit of motive force will
need roughly 1/η units of electricity and its equivalent CO₂. Now
this calculations would make it appear as if BEVs are worse than ICE's
because the ICE does not incur a loss of (1 - η) due to the round
tripping of energy through the electrical drive train, but this is a
flawed analysis. What is interesting however is that even this
unfavorable (to BEV) calculation can reveal something very
interesting. If we move on to a scenario when β fraction of our
electricity source is from thermal plants and the rest (1 - β) is from
renewables then the total emissions for producing 1 unit of motive
force in BEV = (1/η * β) because that is the faction that is produces
by thermal plants. So even if we transition to (1 - η) renewables, we
will break even against this very lopsided calculation. Let us now
analyse with actual values of η. The electric motor is very efficient
(unlike the ICE) and it is not unfair to believe that it gives an
efficiency of 0.9 (i.e. 1 unit of stored electricity = 0.9 unit of
motive energy). I think (not sure of this point) it can also be
assumed that the charging system has an efficacy of 0.9. So an overall
efficiency of 0.9 * 0.9 = 0.8. Therefore we can assume η = 0.8 which I
think is realistic. So if we even transition to 0.2 fraction
renewables, we would be doing good.


Now let us discuss the hybrid scenario. As mentioned if 100% of
electricity is through coal then ICEs look better than BEV but this is
not correct because ICEs have notorious efficiency when not run under
the right RPM range. A hybrid can salvage the situation and thus give
better mileage by using two strategy:

1. It can charge the battery and then use it for driving the car. This
means it can keep the ICE running at the best RPM.

2. It can use regen braking.

But then hybrids are just like BEVs + ICE charging and regen braking
is also available to the BEV. So for me hybrids are like BEV + 100%
thermal power generation. It can never catch up with BEVs. There is no
point in investing in hybrid (may be it made sense in the early Prius
time) form the emission point of view.

Can hybrid technology improve ?

If we look at the hybrid technology as a whole it is ultimately a heat
engine and the best efficiency that an engine can achieve is limited
by the efficiency of the Carnot cycle (about 0.4 would be the best
case scenario). So there are theoretical limits to what we can achieve
from a heat engine based solution. This is also the reason why
Hydrogen based ICE is a really really bad idea not even worth
prototyping.

[volkman10]

Hybrid vehicles have overtaken pure-play electric cars in India.

hybrids accounted for 12.6% of total passenger vehicle (PV) sales in January-November, while the share of EVs was only 2.3%.

Link:

[Shresth_EV]

Originally Posted by volkman10

Hybrid vehicles have overtaken pure-play electric cars in India.

Sales breakup model wise? How many of these are “nano femto” SHVS and how many are the true Toyota/Lexus hybrids?

Since jap trio sell non hybrid/SHVS models of same cars, it’s downright dishonest to count them as same.

Brownie points for SHVS don’t count at a point when Maruti have gotten themselves tax notice for embezzlement of hybrid subsidies on SHVS

TBHP discussion thread on the same (Maruti gets notice for the second time for 'dubious' hybrid tech (SHVS))

Is the author using sources which includes these start stop systems? Because then even splendor has start stop nowadays. And that would put majority of bike sales being hybrid as well