[sumeethaldankar]

While the strong hybrid is the way to go in India for now unless it becomes affordable to the public masses it will remain a "premium" feature. Both the Grand Vitara and Hyryder have same tech and they are priced north of 18 lacs. Hardly what I call affordable to most.

Majority of the car buyer pubic is still in the less than <10 lac Rs range. This tech is however not new and should have been introduced in India much earlier as this would have benefited all. Too bad the manafacturers (read Toyota) did not bother to be early movers much before and are only bringing forward such tech due to tightening emission norms and rising fuel prices.

[AulusGabinius]

Originally Posted by Turbohead

Strong hybrid is the new diesel. Period.

Individuals with high running who currently use diesels and looking to replace their vehicles are having a tough time thanks to the demonization and elimination of diesels apart from the inherent unreliability of the existing options thanks to DPF issues etc.

With a strong hybrid, it kills many birds with one stone - lower emissions inside the city, highway like fuel economy inside the city and is certainly less prone to having its life shortened by the NGT.

Only the price is the problem and the resulting loss in boot space but there's nothing impossible with a well thought out hybrid designed from the ground up. Strong Hybrids, IMO, are the more practical option for the next 20 years until we get the charging infrastructure and technology to match turn around times of fossil fueled vehicles especially taxis where charging time is loss in revenue.

Agree totally. In the foreseeable future, diesels will give way to hybrids, and I think Ni-MH batteries may be old school in the west, but as we get tech late here anyway, it might just be the ticket to making hybrids more affordable. Not to mention, sometimes features may not be the best approach. That HUD in the Vitara for instance. Did not see the need for it as such, other than the fact that it reduces the number of TFTs needed, which are a choke point.

[wocanak]

Originally Posted by sumeethaldankar

While the strong hybrid is the way to go in India for now unless it becomes affordable to the public masses it will remain a "premium" feature. Both the Grand Vitara and Hyryder have same tech and they are priced north of 18 lacs. Hardly what I call affordable to most.

Majority of the car buyer pubic is still in the less than <10 lac Rs range. This tech is however not new and should have been introduced in India much earlier as this would have benefited all. Too bad the manafacturers (read Toyota) did not bother to be early movers much before and are only bringing forward such tech due to tightening emission norms and rising fuel prices.

For small hybrids to be cost competitive with equivalent EV, the cost of ICE motor and other required ICE parts have to cost similar to that of a small 15 kwh battery, i.e. ~1.8 Lakhs at today's price of $140/kwh. I don't know if this is possible. The more ICE parts cost above this, that much cheaper the EV version can be. The long range advantage of hybrids are not as important in small cars, which are predominantly used in the city.

But for mid size or above hybrids make a lot of senses, at least in the near term. I think Suzuki/Toyota missed out on offering a PHEV Grand Vitara/Hyryder, even a small 5 kwh battery would have given a real world range of ~75 km. Sufficient for most people's daily city commute.

The cheapest strong hybrid starts at ~15 Lakhs, ex-showroom, a PHEV version at 18 Lakhs, would be so much more competitive with Nexon Max/MG ZS. That would be an EV in the city and ICE on highway, best of both worlds and yet priced competitively.

[enj0y_ride]

Hybrids are a transitionary phase to BEVs. Considering the cost, added complexity ( and the weight ) of Hybrids currently, IMO its better to focus on BEVs and make the ecosystem ready.

Note that plugin hybrids are completely missing in India.

Three years back, I never thought EV penetration will be so rapid in India. I feel, BEV revolution and hype around it will mask the prospects of Hybrids in India.

Hybrids were unsuccessful in markets like US and Europe ( reasons could be many and may or may not match Indian sentiments ). The Western manufacturers are focusing on BEVs and Japanese seem to be more inclined towards Hybirds/ Flex fuels etc.

[hydraulicsteer]

I see tremendous potential in HEVs for India,

1. 10 year road legal life of a Diesel in NCR and high chances of a similar blanket ruling for rest of India.

2. Comparable FE and lower maintenance costs to a diesel. Frugal heads will love HEVs.


3. Pure EVs are not suitable to all car users. Moderate to low users, apartment dwellers, frequent car changers and road trip lovers do not see much hope in an EV in near future .

4. Car companies can utilise their existing capex with HEVs. Pure EVs need fresh fundings from HQs. Easy to convince the international bosses on HEVs.

5. Flatter learning curve for a move to HEV as compared to a EV for a pure ICE user.

[car-dent]

I think the future of cars lies in plug-in hybrids with larger batteries and a smaller engine which makes it primarily an EV with an engine for backup. That will be the best of both worlds as there will be no range anxiety and for regular purposes, it will practically be an EV.

[sagsaw]

I am a fan of Nissans ePower technology though havent experienced it.

A pure electric drivetrain driven by a battery which is charged by a small engine used as a generator.

With XTrail ePower linedup for launch in India, interesting time ahead.

Overall I have always felt for four wheelers Indian government should have taken the hybrid step way back in 2014 and then the EV. 2 wheelers they could have insisted on Electrification.

I strongly felt they should have made the tax flat 5% for hybrids for 5 years until 2019, enough time for localization to have brought the cost down and then the tax could have increased to flat 18%.

2019 onwards they could have started EV initiatives.

Possibly in that scenario we could have had way less pollution, early death of diesel, and a better adoption curve for EVs.

[Turbosailor]

Originally Posted by AulusGabinius

So far, we've got basically two: the Toyota-Suzuki twins and the City EHEV. Drove both, and the performance versus fuel economy tradeoff almost isn't there.

"All that glitters are not Gold" like to quote this for current trend of personnel going behind EV. Most of them don't realize how the raw materials for batteries are sourced. Just google blood batteries. https://https://www.nytimes.com/2021...a-mulimbi.html We human are mining earth in unprecedented scale on the pretentious of saving earth. Still using thermal power plants to charge EVs and still didn't figured it out how to recycle all these used batteries after there life span and how to waterproof them. EVs are burning in US after Florida floods caused by hurricane Ian. https://https://www.usatoday.com/sto...d/10553207002/ IMHO strong hybrids are present answer and for future hydrogen will be our fuel. These EVs are not sustainable and are not the answer for reducing dependency on fossil fuels. "Starting is easy, persistence is an art"

[Tucker48]

The future of strong hybrids is not bright. It's not even a stop gap arrangement. Buyers have no choice because manufacturers have given up on diesel engines. But those manufacturers who have plans to continue with diesel engines aren't and will not offer strong hybrids. Strong hybrid on a performance car makes sense but on normal vehicles. Also strong hybrids will cost more to maintain due to 'best of both worlds'.

[shashanka]

A very interesting and informative thread - specially for grey-head gear-heads like me! Just one more reason why T-BHP is the one-stop oasis for serious buffs in India.

[Sankar]

Strong hybrids make immense sense when they are plug-in hybrids and/or when they come with a reasonable battery kwh rating with a ev mode drive of atleast 30kms. Like the one on new Camry and higher ranking Toyotas/Lexus. Once this tech trickles down to mass market it will make total sense. Lower ranking strong hybrids are way for the manufacturers to meet cafe ratings and gather green credits and generally look good.

Since this is the first mass market hybrids in India we will now see how these batteries fare in the long run. Replacement out of warranty will be expensive. On this forum itself I have noticed two cases of hybrid battery replacements as posted by the respective owners. This is from when hybrids were a niche and numbers low. EVs also run on batteries, but mass market hybrid in comparison runs on tiny batteries which see a lot of charge/discharge cycles compared to a large EV battery pack. I don't know how this will affect the health of a hybrid's battery compared to a pure EVs after similar miles and similar years. Also remember that if the hybrid battery is totally dead the petrol engine will not save the day and take one home.

The technology is sound and refined (thanks to a lot of early buyers) and will be awesome when larger hybrid packs become available to common man.

[rajshenoy]

Interesting debate. Current hybrid options that we have in our market are definitely overpriced and this should only come down. For example, Honda smartly bumped up the price by adding ADAS and they could have easily offered a regular ZX or Vx Hev for 2 lakh premium. They might have done that to protect their diesel engine and in hopefully 2023 they will pull the plug on diesel and launch lower trims of their hev.

Toyota on the other hand seem to have some serious plans to offer their decades old mature technology and it could mean the Koreans too will soon follow.

Personally I am more inclined towards strong hybrid as a single car both for urban as well as highway case(without the range anxiety) and even better if some one offers a plug in hybrid with real world range of say 50-60kms which might meet the daily driving use case of over 90% of us.

[Sumedik]

Do hybrids currently available use regen to charge batteries while the car operates using ICE? If so, this would ensure that the design level drawback of ICE that fuel is wasted during braking is reduced. This would be more effective in stop and go intra city trips as compared to highways.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by sagsaw

I am a fan of Nissans ePower technology though havent experienced it.

A pure electric drivetrain driven by a battery which is charged by a small engine used as a generator.

With XTrail ePower linedup for launch in India, interesting time ahead.

On the contrary, it is the worst hybrid system (series hybrid) because unlike Honda/Toyota hybrid's the engine does not directly drive the wheels ever.

So what is essentially happening in this system is that the Engine is driving the generator which in turn is supplying the current to an invertor to convert it to AC and then that current in turn powers electric motors which in turn is driving the wheels. Nissan claims 116kw from the petrol engine - considering a modest 10 percent efficiency loss at every conversion step it is .9 x 116kw = 104kw at the generator, then .9 X 104kw = 94kw at the invertor and finally .9 x 94kw = 85kw at the motor.

Nissan claims 140kw total output and considering the electric motor is only outputing around 85kw, the rest of it, around 55kw has to come from the miniscule 2.1kwh battery. Imagine the discharge rate on a 2.1kwh battery supplying 55kw even if for short bursts when you are pushing the car and I wonder how long it is going to last, the peak power that is, and what is it going to do to the battery, the high discharge rate that is, in the long run.

Honda/Toyota hybrid systems are far better. Infact I would argue Toyota has the best Hybrid system given it can operate as a series, parallel, pure combustion or a pure electric system or a combination of the two (such as engine powering the wheels but also acting as a generator or engine and motors both powering the wheels etc)

Originally Posted by Sumedik

Do hybrids currently available use regen to charge batteries while the car operates using ICE? If so, this would ensure that the design level drawback of ICE that fuel is wasted during braking is reduced. This would be more effective in stop and go intra city trips as compared to highways.

Hybrids are more efficient in the city because they can use regen while braking and can use pure electric power to run at city speeds (upto 70 odd kmph in the case of my RX450h). At highway speeds, the primary motive for propulsion is the ICE engine with some electric motor assist (speaking of the Toyota system here) and we already know that an ICE engine is at its most efficient at constant highway speeds.

The Honda system on the other hand operates as a series hybrid system aka ICE engine acting as an electric generator at speeds of upto 80 kmph after which a clutch is engaged so that the combustion engine drives the wheels directly and the drive ratio is like 6th gear in a regular transmission car.

[wocanak]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

...
Nissan claims 140kw total output and considering the electric motor is only outputing around 85kw, the rest of it, around 55kw has to come from the miniscule 2.1kwh battery. Imagine the discharge rate on a 2.1kwh battery supplying 55kw even if for short bursts when you are pushing the car and I wonder how long it is going to last, the peak power that is, and what is it going to do to the battery, the high discharge rate that is, in the long run.

Honda/Toyota hybrid systems are far better. Infact I would argue Toyota has the best Hybrid system given it can operate as a series, parallel, pure combustion or a pure electric system or a combination of the two (such as engine powering the wheels but also acting as a generator or engine and motors both powering the wheels etc)
...

It is a tradeoff between efficiency and simplicity. BTW, the typical efficiency figures for these systems are 95%, so electric motor output would be ~100kw, so give up a bit of efficiency for a simpler system. This also makes it possible to have a PHEV version without reduced power in EV mode.

Despite the sophistication the Honda/Toyota hybrids have not delivered good performance even after two decades and have not taken off in the west. Maybe other approaches need to be tried?