[nhkvarma]

Originally Posted by sachinshastry

This propaganda seem to have spread well all over the internet. I wonder why people are so concerned over "human rights" only when it comes to battery production, whereas totally ignore it when it comes to oil extraction. As wocanak has pointed out, the quantity of the rare earth metals used in a NMC battery is less (around 20kg for a 40kwh pack) . LFP batteries contains no nickel and cobalt.

Coming to oil, has it not caused countries to go to war with each other? Its also a well known fact that some countries have been using the oil money to sponsor anti-social and anti-national activities all around the world. Many oil rich countries are also put under sanctions due to various geo political complications. Rich oil companies have been involved in lobbying the governments in many poor countries to exploit the resources despite people's opposition there. Oil spills causing damage to marine life is well known. So does this not have detrimental effects on water, biodiversity and human rights? Why treat EV as a villain and oil as a saint in terms of ethical sourcing? The problem lies in supply chain which needs to be sorted out in both. But branding EVs as evil for it is not justifiable.

Sorry for going off the topic, but just wanted to talk about this, as I see every Youtube video these days against EVs seem to show only one side of the story and completely ignore the other. It seems as if straight out of a "toolkit".

I've taken the time to delve into the research myself, which surprisingly or incidentally happens to be part of my profession. Currently, I'm unraveling the battery supply chain for a European company and unearthed some uncomfortable truths. I've encountered similar findings with other materials, and recently it was cotton which we're all sporting this summer. To claim some authenticity of the work, luckily the reviewers have solid backgrounds, some even belonging to top global organization, who are validating the work. Additionally, certain American and European nations are now taking action, banning imports of products, including fruits and flowers, associated with environmental and social concerns, nor quitting to consider it because they hurt someone for oil or gunpowder in the past. And the best part? They're not making these decisions based on some random YouTube video or WhatsApp rumor.

Its absolute speculation to think human rights were thrown aside for oil, and there's been enough noise about it. But I do think it never got the "green" stamp like REs and EVs are getting. In fact most minerals and metals, be it the steel, aluminum or copper or others, are all under scrutiny for a while now over their environmental and social impacts. So whats the difference here for EVs to get popular - Its the time and hypocrisy that is being pulled out when are labelled as friendly.

LFPs still roll with lithium and other components, bringing their own bag of problems like trashing the environment and local indigenous communities. Whether it's flamingos taking a hit in Argentina or the dirt-digging in Congo and Zimbabwe, it's a mess. Talking about the hype over EV minerals, the catch is not all components that go in a battery cell are on limelight like the cobalt or nickel got for obvious reasons. Other minerals ain't innocent either; they've stirred up their own share of civil and cold wars. Infact much of the ancient wars are for few popular minerals. Lobbying, wars, pollution etc. - these are battles some big organizations have been fighting against for a while. Oil gets slapped with the terrorism label when it sparks conflict, while EVs get this soft "green" or "blue" tag to brush off the mess they create?

The damage oil does to marine life has always been known, with plenty of voices speaking out against it. You can find info on it with a quick Google search. Here's a couple of quick examples:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...1462962100102X

https://www.worldwildlife.org/threat...as-development

Instead of fixing the problem, labeling batteries or renewables as the solution is where things get messed up. It paints them as people and planet friendly without really looking at their impacts on the ground. Today, you may find such labels on your apparels, stationary and even on mud burnt bricks too. Should we ignore them because we didnt see such tag for oil at a fuel station?

State-sponsored CL and FL isn't being tolerated anymore, thanks to a lot of effort from organizations. It's not just about oil or EV minerals; it's happening with cotton, cocoa, and many other products too. People and nations are waking up to it now. The hype is getting high unlike past and its apparently in the EV era. Just because something bad happened on one thing in the past doesn't mean we should let it go for other in the future.

My apologies too for the off topic.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by nhkvarma

My apologies too for the off topic.

Everything is relative, talking about only EV emissions and ignoring ICE emissions is not right. The only way to have zero emissions is sit at home, even walking 100kms to your parents home need extra energy to your body, which causes extra emissions.

Do EVs have zero emissions, No.
Are EVs better than ICE cars, Yes 3-4x when charged with RE.
Is solar and Wind better than Fossil fuels, Yes.
Do EVs need more mining than ICE, No.
Is Cobalt dirty, Yes and cobalt is a catalyst during oil refining. Why Cobalt is OK for ICE but not OK for EVs.

I heard far worse atrocities in Nigeria for oil, just that these guys have trillions of money to suppress any news.

[nhkvarma]

[quote=SKC-auto;5750325]Everything is relative, talking about only EV emissions and ignoring ICE emissions is not right. The only way to have zero emissions is sit at home, even walking 100kms to your parents home need extra energy to your body, which causes extra emissions.

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

Do EVs have zero emissions, No.
Are EVs better than ICE cars, Yes 3-4x when charged with RE.

Not exactly. The main point here isn't whether it's better or not, but how it's better. A study by Volvo comparing their own equivalent EV to an ICE running on coal-powered and renewable energy suggests that a vehicle must run at least 200,000 kilometers to balance the emission. However, our battery warranties don't typically extend that far, nor is circularity taken into account at the same time when promoting EVs. I haven't seen a single EV company in India recommending using the EV or infact any device for the longest duration before replacing or recycling it. Even within circularity long term usage is the first step before going for recycle. Once upon a time, Diesel was promoted for its mileage, assuming it saved more fuel and caused less pollution than petrol. Years later, it turned out to be otherwise.


https://www.volvocars.com/images/v/-...eport-xc40.pdf

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

Is solar and Wind better than Fossil fuels, Yes.

Once more, it's not quite accurate. The term "betterment" only applies to carbon emissions. Even the TCFD once focused solely on carbon, and now they've initiated the TNFD after facing considerable backlash about how other environmental factors cannot be pushed to the backseat. A demand study by ICE suggests we will run out of the minerals in no time to meet global demand. If circularity takes its own sweet time, we'll end up damaging the environment even more before it's too late, similar to what happened with HVACs. How many initiatives were launched to recycle existing ICE vehicles to Evs? well barely any. Its all market driven.

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

Do EVs need more mining than ICE, No.

Yes. While the same amount of minerals is used in car production, the shift to batteries instead of engines means more minerals are needed. This requires more energy for processing and extracting additional minerals. Due to global targets and China's efforts to achieve net-zero emissions, it's encouraging its companies to invest in foreign lands where energy-intensive activities can take place. For example, Qingshan is relocating its entire operations to Indonesia instead of China to keep its energy-intensive activities offshore.

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

Is Cobalt dirty, Yes and cobalt is a catalyst during oil refining. Why Cobalt is OK for ICE but not OK for EVs.

Aluminum isn't exactly clean either. I'm pretty sure I didn't make this claim, but I'd like to see who else is suggesting it's acceptable for ICE vehicles but not for EVs.

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

I heard far worse atrocities in Nigeria for oil, just that these guys have trillions of money to suppress any news.

While its not as bad as the situation in the DRC or Uyghur, I encourage everyone to stand against such intolerance to such atrocities wherever for whatever reasons. Just because it's happening in Nigeria for oil, doesn't mean we should tolerate every other wrongdoing for every other commodity in the world.

To stop anything bad, we dont have to avoid and sit at home, but we should not create a wrong market surge. Responsible consumption is important afteral.

[Aditya]

Please restrict the discussion to the Mahindra XUV400. Any more off-topic posts will be deleted.

[pgsagar]

Originally Posted by Aditya

Please restrict the discussion to the Mahindra XUV400. Any more off-topic posts will be deleted.

I have a request for moderators. Threads questioning the very relevance of buying an EV, quoting skewed numbers/lopsided studies may please be deleted, if posted on E/Vehicle threads, whether posted on XUV400 or Tata or MG or Kia or whatever thread. We have a dedicated thread called "Why I didn't buy an EV". Let them post their theories/studies there. Those interested can debate there all day long.

[saurabh_v8]

Originally Posted by smrtdvl

The range is on the lesser side. Request you to reset wh/km once you charge it to 100% Just press the set button for 5 seconds and it is done.

I have tried this.

there are 4 scenarios here

1. Daily office commute in L mode and Fun: 200wh/hr

2. Daily office commute in D mode and Fun: 195wh/hr

3. Daily office commute in Octavia Diesel 2.0 AT: 7.5km/l

4. Open Highway Drive in D mode and Fun between 60 to 80km/h: 155wh/h

please suggest

[Contrapunto]

Originally Posted by sidoxic

After 15,000 km and 7 months of ownership of the XUV400 these are my observations based on the points being discussed here. And feel free to ask more!

Sir, we would love to hear your updated experience of over ah year with the XUV400. I am sure the community would find it very useful.

[Addled]

Originally Posted by saurabh_v8

I have tried this.

there are 4 scenarios here

1. Daily office commute in L mode and Fun: 200wh/hr

2. Daily office commute in D mode and Fun: 195wh/hr

3. Daily office commute in Octavia Diesel 2.0 AT: 7.5km/l

4. Open Highway Drive in D mode and Fun between 60 to 80km/h: 155wh/h

please suggest

These are incredibly high. These are high even for a regular ICE like driving style.
During my early days before getting used to the car and driving like I did with my previous car in mixed conditions I was averaging 130-140
Now having gotten used to the vehicle, I'm operating in the 120-125 wh/km range without being overly efficiency concious; with my best efficiency number being 108 wh/km

The most likely culprit is your being too aggressive with the accelerator . Try a more defensive approach, anticipate traffic better, use the brake less, and maximize the usage of the cars existing momentum. This doesn't mean driving slower just more efficiently. I still enjoy the cars incredible acceleration regularly and take the same amount of time between regular destinations as I used to

You need to amend your driving style a bit basically. Tap into online resources such as YouTube etc. Plenty of instructional material and tips/tricks etc available on the topic.

If it's not your driving style, please get the car checked. Might be a problem with the BMS

[saurabh_v8]

Originally Posted by Addled

These are incredibly high. These are high even for a regular ICE like driving style.
. I still enjoy the cars incredible acceleration regularly and take the same amount of time between regular destinations as I used to

You need to amend your driving style a bit basically. Tap into online resources such as YouTube etc. Plenty of instructional material and tips/tricks etc available on the topic.

If it's not your driving style, please get the car checked. Might be a problem with the BMS

I am extremely light on throttle. I do hardly accelerate as I am mostly in bumper to bumper stagnant traffic
.
One day when I was driving on an empty highway in fearless mode and using more than half the throttle I was getting 180wh/km

My trip stats are as below
Soc: 11%
Distance covered: 232kms
Average speed: 19km/h
Time: 12hrs

Ac is set to 25c

Please comment if u feel low wh/km is on account of time.

[Addled]

Originally Posted by saurabh_v8

Please comment if u feel low wh/km is on account of time.

It's definitely not based on time. Plus you seemed to have reset your efficiency several times, so definitely not a factor.

232kms @89% with heavy throttle on fearless mode is on the lower side, but not alarmingly . Then again, your avg. speed of 19km/hr over a time period of 12hrs with those numbers leaves me scratching my head a bit

What range are you getting in regular usage? Could you refresh the trip meter the next time you charge the car and report back. Ideally use it till 70-80% to get an idea of your extrapolated range. 50% will do as well..

For reference most people are getting an extrapolated range of 260-300 with AC on regular usage

If it's significantly below that number, you need to have it looked at. As I mentioned earlier, those efficiency numbers are much higher than usual

Best

[saurabh_v8]

Originally Posted by Addled

232kms @89% with heavy throttle on fearless mode is on the lower side, but not alarmingly .

Sorry bro, this range is on fun mode

Originally Posted by Addled

Then again, your avg. speed of 19km/hr over a time period of 12hrs with those numbers leaves me scratching my head a bit

Bro, this is Mumbai Traffic
I have seen wh/km drop while the car is stationary.

Originally Posted by Addled

What range are you getting in regular usage? Could you refresh the trip meter the next time you charge the car and report back. Ideally use it till 70-80% to get an idea of your extrapolated range. 50% will do as well..

220-240kms
Sure I will

[vickster]

I traded in my 2021 Nexon EV 30kw for an 2024 XUV400 39kw recently hoping to benefit from the longer range. I have run around 1000kms. Here is a summary of the range I have got until now.


The first time I charged it upto 100%, I got 196.2kms with 7% remaining. This was mostly in D and L mode in FUN. Driving style was not very aggressive but not conservative either.
The second time I charged it to 100%, I ran 214.4kms with 17% remaining. This was in D mode in FUN and mostly slower speeds of 50kmph and very sedate throttle inputs which is quite boring and cannot be sustained.

My understanding is that better range is achieved in highways or rather than cities. In my Nexon with the 30kw battery, I was averaging 180kms with 10-15% remaining. XUV in comparison so far has not been been impressive on the range front. I should try a longer highway trip to truly understand the range.

[Shreyans_Jain]

Originally Posted by vickster

The first time I charged it upto 100%, I got 196.2kms with 7% remaining. This was mostly in D and L mode in FUN. Driving style was not very aggressive but not conservative either.
The second time I charged it to 100%, I ran 214.4kms with 17% remaining. This was in D mode in FUN and mostly slower speeds of 50kmph and very sedate throttle inputs which is quite boring and cannot be sustained.

Anecdotal evidence from multiple users points to real world range of XUV400 to be about 200 odd kms with 15% battery margin, which is about par with the small battery Nexon/Punch, and is significantly lesser than their LR variants. Average energy consumption in Wh/km is 20-30% higher than Tata EVs.

Early model Nexon EV also had such issues. Tata has improved its BMS calibration over the years based on real world feedback from tens of thousands of customers. They have reached a point where the current lot of cars are sorted from a battery, range and efficiency point of view for the tech at play. Mahindra lacks this real world experience.

[vickster]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

Anecdotal evidence from multiple users points to real world range of XUV400 to be about 200 odd kms with 15% battery margin, which is about par with the small battery Nexon/Punch, and is significantly lesser than their LR variants. Average energy consumption in Wh/km is 20-30% higher than Tata EVs. .

I agree. I think it will take many more kms to understand the true range of this car. I am wondering if the higher Wh/km has anything to do with the different battery chemistry (NMC vs LFP). Also, I have noticed that the fan under the hood switches on and off after a few minutes while the car is in locked condition. This also happens while the car is charging. On checking with the dealer, they informed this is normal and it is battery cooling circulation working now and then. Personally, the only advantage I see over the Nexon is the overall bigger dimensions of the car (longer and wider) which results in more rear seat comfort. Bigger boot also helps.

[Shreyans_Jain]

Originally Posted by vickster

I agree. I think it will take many more kms to understand the true range of this car. The only advantage I see over the Nexon is the overall bigger dimensions of the car (longer and wider) which results in more rear seat comfort. Bigger boot also helps.

The mechanical and engineering bits of the car: the ride, handling, steering, the space and comfort and seating, they are all best in class and better than Nexon. No two ways about it. But the EV powertrain is just not as mature as Tata’s as yet.