[Nanolover]

Originally Posted by ajayc123

Just for peace of mind. I would like to avoid a situation there is some sudden tyre damage that cannot be repaired.

Just buy a wheel disc from boodmo and get a tyre on it and put it in the boot . For a tidier fit can get an upholsterer to do a rexine cover ( or can buy the Tigor ev spare tyre cover from boodmo if available). All inclusive should be around 6k.

[manojas]

Originally Posted by ajayc123

Is this understanding correct that the Tiago EV will not have a spare wheel? What is the solution?

https://www.autocarindia.com/car-new...-motors-425883

The ICE Tiago comes with a puncture repair kit. If that is part of the EV, that could be one solution to reach up to the puncture repair shop.
This being a city focused low range EV, it may be okay.

[locusjag]

Many members have contemplated here that this car may move at huge volumes, of upto 50,000 per month. If this car sells really well, there are some possibilities that come to mind.

Being that this appears to be a game-changer, what if the game were to really change?

Ladies and not-so-gentle men, welcome to an ersatz (i.e., impromptu) edition of Future State Mapping for automobiles:
- Other Auto OEMs may wake up, smell the roses and launch similarly affordable city runabout EVs. Some may shrink EV sizes even more, correlating the Tiago's tiny footprint and success, thereby driving down prices and achieving even higher sales volumes.
- Huge volumes may sell in this new-found EV segment on the whole - as these prices are now in petrol hatchback territory - driving up EV based power consumption
- Domestic electricity demand may touch unprecedented levels. How will India's various power distribution companies cater to charging needs, in addition to existing power demand? There are some interesting calculations that can be done here; peak power use in a typical household today, versus when EVs are mass adopted in the near future. It may not look so good for the society overall - rolling power outages could be the norm. There are ample YouTube videos that argue likewise.
- State governments and the Central government wake up to the fact that they're losing a cash cow in petroleum VAT, excise duties and cess revenues. They may start levying a hefty GST on EVs, thereby inflating EV prices on the whole. Also, current Income tax benefits for buying EVs may evaporate. The overwhelming success of EVs may well work against them, in the end. And we'll all be back to square one, where electric automobiles remain pricey and unaffordable for purchasing, just as we have mass unaffordability in today's ICE automobile market.

So on that unpleasant note, I'll wrap up my unsolicited, un-asked for and probably unwelcome Future State Mapping exercise. Enjoy the EVs now guys. It's likely not going to last.

[ajayc123]

Originally Posted by sharathkamath04

It's totally based on your requirement. If you have a car that can be used for the next 2-3years then it would be smart to wait.

But the next-gen cars (Gen2 or Gen3) are not going to be cheaper than the current EVs. It will come with a better range and features but will surely have a higher price tag too. Tiago EV will remain the cheapest EV for the near short term.

My thinking is that if I have a goal to keep an EV for about 10 years or so, I might as well wait for a few more quarters, and get gen 2/3. Of course one will have the option for a gen 1 Tiago even then, I guess. No tearing hurry as its going to be a second car, the first one has still a lot of juice.

[CoffeeBeans]

Originally Posted by locusjag

- State governments and the Central government wake up to the fact that they're losing a cash cow in petroleum VAT, excise duties and cess revenues. They may start levying a hefty GST on EVs, thereby inflating EV prices on the whole. Also, current Income tax benefits for buying EVs may evaporate. The overwhelming success of EVs may well work against them, in the end. And we'll all be back to square one, where electric automobiles remain pricey and unaffordable for purchasing, just as we have mass unaffordability in today's ICE automobile market.

Even if running cost of EVs reach the same level as ICE cars today, EVs still make more sense from environment perspective than ICE. This has been the main reason for governments to support the EV and not the upfront price difference. In long term one should expect to pay more for buying and running EVs, given ofocurse the infrastrucutre required is fully developed to support the market growth.

[aim120]

While the government will make less money on EV due to lack of petroleum vat. Our rupee will strengthen, we import pretty much all electronic products, cooking oil, machinery etc. Petroleum and gold imports are the main reason for Indias trade deficit, one is a necessity and other is a obsession.

But if this sells 10k to 20k a month, that will have a toll on the grid. Every night the grid load will be high, its like everyone switches on a electric geyser and in summers with Air con and charging done at the same time, expect power cuts.

[sharathkamath04]

Originally Posted by locusjag

Many members have contemplated here that this car may move at huge volumes, of upto 50,000 per month. If this car sells really well, there are some possibilities that come to mind.

Being that this appears to be a game-changer, what if the game were to really change?

Ladies and not-so-gentle men, welcome to an ersatz (i.e., impromptu) edition of Future State Mapping for automobiles:
- Other Auto OEMs may wake up, smell the roses and launch similarly affordable city runabout EVs. Some may shrink EV sizes even more, correlating the Tiago's tiny footprint and success, thereby driving down prices and achieving even higher sales volumes.
- Huge volumes may sell in this new-found EV segment on the whole - as these prices are now in petrol hatchback territory - driving up EV based power consumption
- Domestic electricity demand may touch unprecedented levels. How will India's various power distribution companies cater to charging needs, in addition to existing power demand? There are some interesting calculations that can be done here; peak power use in a typical household today, versus when EVs are mass adopted in the near future. It may not look so good for the society overall - rolling power outages could be the norm. There are ample YouTube videos that argue likewise.
- State governments and the Central government wake up to the fact that they're losing a cash cow in petroleum VAT, excise duties and cess revenues. They may start levying a hefty GST on EVs, thereby inflating EV prices on the whole. Also, current Income tax benefits for buying EVs may evaporate. The overwhelming success of EVs may well work against them, in the end. And we'll all be back to square one, where electric automobiles remain pricey and unaffordable for purchasing, just as we have mass unaffordability in today's ICE automobile market.

So on that unpleasant note, I'll wrap up my unsolicited, un-asked for and probably unwelcome Future State Mapping exercise. Enjoy the EVs now guys. It's likely not going to last.

I doubt it will go away that soon. The percentage of EV needs to be 30-50% for it to actually reach the level of normalcy.

* 2 OEMs with large volumes have no EVs on road. We have seen Wagon R being tested so many times but failing to get it on road shows the willpower of OEMs. Kudos to Tata for taking this risk which is paying off very well now. Others will need at least 2-3years to understand the new tech and bring EV.

* Power generation is not an issue in India. It's the distribution and grid which will be a bottleneck. But it will only improve once demand surges. DISCOMs can provide a new connection for EV charging (maybe charging double the domestic unit price) and even then EV will be less than ICE in running cost.

* when EV penetration reaches the level which can affect tax collections, we will also see a huge reduction in import bills. Also, EVs can be exported from India as most countries do not have enough EVs yet. Govt may increase GST but it surely cannot be more than ICE. Also, battery tech is predicted to reduce cost with Sodium, Al, and Solid state batteries.

And a normal day with an EV percentage of 80% will be much better with less pollution, sound and imports.

[soarersc300]

Originally Posted by pronad

All in all, this pricing has made it a very lucrative offer for city drive/second car. Saw some BHPians giving very detailed calculation highlighting the economics over ICE. I was just curious on the "Battery Replacement cost" part of an EV ownership.
When does typically an EV battery need to be replaced, and how much that would cost? Will that cost eat up the savings made over the last running years?
Thanks in advance for whoever can enlighten me please.

Just a few posts earlier on this thread there was an interview with CEO of Tata Motors who addressed this query.

The battery used is LFP which can be charged 3000 times before the battery starts degrading. Assuming you charge every alternate day you will see battery degradation after 6000 days or about 16 years. Also, even after 16 years or 3000 charging cycles you can continue to use the battery but it will have lower range, say about 10% to 20% lower than what it was new.

The current version of batteries are good enough to last the life of the car, the replacement costs are unfounded given all the data we have of the last 10/15 years of data we have for BEVs.

[shyampsunder]

Originally Posted by locusjag

- Domestic electricity demand may touch unprecedented levels. How will India's various power distribution companies cater to charging needs, in addition to existing power demand? There are some interesting calculations that can be done here; peak power use in a typical household today, versus when EVs are mass adopted in the near future. It may not look so good for the society overall - rolling power outages could be the norm. There are ample YouTube videos that argue likewise.
- State governments and the Central government wake up to the fact that they're losing a cash cow in petroleum VAT, excise duties and cess revenues. They may start levying a hefty GST on EVs, thereby inflating EV prices on the whole. Also, current Income tax benefits for buying EVs may evaporate. The overwhelming success of EVs may well work against them, in the end. And we'll all be back to square one, where electric automobiles remain pricey and unaffordable for purchasing, just as we have mass unaffordability in today's ICE automobile market.

Not so fast. Few reasons this will not play out as you think:

1. Taxes have become centralized in a way that apart from Road tax, almost everything is decided by the Center and GST council. For the center, EVs offer tons of value because they can reduce their forex outgo. The reduced cash from excise duty etc can be made up by printing rupees but we can't print dollars which we spend on fossil fuels. Import of parts and raw materials for EVs is one time plus with recycling of precious rare earth in them, their life is much longer than the life of a single EV which makes it a no brainer for the country.

2. Power is not something like fuel that can be stored typically, production and demand are very closely calibrated. Any big variations in demand or supply cause disruptions in the power supply. If you notice closely, in states where there is a power shortage, load shedding happens in the late morning/afternoon. This is not by accident but by design because peak power consumption happens precisely at this time (link). Most buyers of EVs won't have a chance to charge during this time because they are at work or outside and they plugin during the night which is precisely when power usage is at its least which means the existing grid has surplus capacity. To further push this, govts can incentivize charging at night which has been done across the world.

3. Current income tax benefits are too puny to make any difference in the overall scheme of things.

4. As states feel the pinch due to road tax exemption, they may decide to tax ICE even higher because by the volume they are still much larger than EVs to make up for the lost revenue. This is not a theoretical scenario, Delhi govt is already planning to increase road taxes for ICE. (link)

Even if the situation does play out to some extent as what you are predicting, all present buyers of EVs will continue to enjoy the benefits because it is next to impossible to impose taxes on EV charging like fossil fuels since you can charge from literally any socket.

[ArTigor]

Excellent pricing from Tata, to put this in a perspective Tiago EV XT medium range comes 9.58 lakhs on road(carwale), where as the similar variant ICE automatic version comes at 7.91 lakhs, I am comparing the automatic XTA as the EV is also a gearless vehicle. So basically it is just a rupees 1.6 lakh net increase in purchase cost which is a fantastic feat!
Lets say if someone bought a diesel variant(if at all there would have been one right now) it would have been costlier by 80-90k rupees, even the XT CNG is 75k rupees costlier than the XT petrol variant. I understand that the EV will not provide the go-anywhere advantage like ICE versions, but then many people in cities like Mumbai do a 40-60 km round trip to and from work on a daily basis, but their small cars rarely leave the Metropolitan limits, this is the perfect vehicle for them.
I am completely amazed by the vision and approach by Tata, 6 years ago this company was written off by the auto experts, today all their ICE products are hot sellers, their EV have no competition, and EV future line looks promising and frugal. The fact that they are launching their EV's spread across different body styles and platforms is a show of confidence, globally automotive giants have stepped cautiously and here is Tata leading the EV scene with flair and flamboyance in India.

[kosjam]

Originally Posted by locusjag

- Domestic electricity demand may touch unprecedented levels. How will India's various power distribution companies cater to charging needs, in addition to existing power demand? There are some interesting calculations that can be done here; peak power use in a typical household today, versus when EVs are mass adopted in the near future. It may not look so good for the society overall - rolling power outages could be the norm. There are ample YouTube videos that argue likewise.

Originally Posted by shyampsunder

Not so fast. Few reasons this will not play out as you think:

2. Power is not something like fuel that can be stored typically, production and demand are very closely calibrated. Any big variations in demand or supply cause disruptions in the power supply. If you notice closely, in states where there is a power shortage, load shedding happens in the late morning/afternoon. This is not by accident but by design because peak power consumption happens precisely at this time (link). Most buyers of EVs won't have a chance to charge during this time because they are at work or outside and they plugin during the night which is precisely when power usage is at its least which means the existing grid has surplus capacity. To further push this, govts can incentivize charging at night which has been done across the world.

Lets carry out a simple back of the envelope calculation.

Assuming TaMo sells 1,00,000 cars in the not so distant future, and assuming somehow ALL Tiagos are completely depleted and their owners plug into their 3.3 KWh (for the sake of simplicity all owners are assumed to have bought only the 3.3 kwh charger) chargers precisely at 10 PM on the same night,

1,00,000 x 3.3 KW = 3,30,000 KW or 330 MW of added load will come on the National grid at once.

Now, India's peak load draw is in the range of 1,82,533 MW (wiki figures) and this added Tiago charging load if it were to come at Peak timings, would have represented a 1.8 % increase over and above the peak load.

Considering that in the last 2 years the peak load timings were either 2PM-3PM or 8PM-9PM, and the improbability of ALL Tiagos being plugged at the same time with 0% batteries, it is safe to assume that the grid won't be affected by even 1 lakh Tiagos sold. By the time 1 lakh Tiagos do come on the road, in atleast a year's time, the country's generation capacity will have further increased, along with increasing the efficiency of the distribution grid (my hope)

[man_and_machine]

Just when TATA was getting their EV strategy right, they had to do this. Same mistake they did with the nano. You can't make something so bare bones it stops being recognised for what is stands for. Who is the real user of this car, what real life problem does this car solve? Now, this not practical EV, will shadow over the entire EV range. If you see a bad trailer you don't want to invest to see the movie. Some initial euphoria and then it will start to not be fully useful. Look at what happened to Reva, and why would you want to start there? The Nexon range gets it almost right, now they had to torpedo their entire strategy. EV buyers are not economically conscious, not yet. Market education has not reached a level of acceptance where cost consciousness will drive EV sales. But TATA had to do this for themselves.

[aim120]

Originally Posted by man_and_machine

Just when TATA was getting their EV strategy right, they had to do this. Same mistake they did with the nano. You can't make something so bare bones it stops being recognised for what is stands for. Who is the real user of this car, what real life problem does this car solve? Now, this not practical EV, will shadow over the entire EV range. If you see a bad trailer you don't want to invest to see the movie. Some initial euphoria and then it will start to not be fully useful. Look at what happened to Reva, and why would you want to start there? The Nexon range gets it almost right, now they had to torpedo their entire strategy. EV buyers are not economically conscious, not yet. Market education has not reached a level of acceptance where cost consciousness will drive EV sales. But TATA had to do this for themselves.

Is this sarcasm.
If not, this car isn't for you. This is for people who want to replace their second car with a EV or those who primarily use it in cities or those who want a automatic car for cities with added benefit of low running cost.

[Palio_2005]

Originally Posted by man_and_machine

Just when TATA was getting their EV strategy right, they had to do this. Same mistake they did with the nano. You can't make something so bare bones it stops being recognised for what is stands for. Who is the real user of this car, what real life problem does this car solve? Now, this not practical EV, will shadow over the entire EV range. If you see a bad trailer you don't want to invest to see the movie. Some initial euphoria and then it will start to not be fully useful. Look at what happened to Reva, and why would you want to start there? The Nexon range gets it almost right, now they had to torpedo their entire strategy. EV buyers are not economically conscious, not yet. Market education has not reached a level of acceptance where cost consciousness will drive EV sales. But TATA had to do this for themselves.

Are you sure which thread you want to post on. I mean this is a free country but even opinion should have some basis. Please dont post something for the sake of it

[vharihar]

Originally Posted by ArTigor

I am completely amazed by the vision and approach by Tata, 6 years ago this company was written off by the auto experts, today all their ICE products are hot sellers, their EV have no competition, and EV future line looks promising and frugal. The fact that they are launching their EV's spread across different body styles and platforms is a show of confidence, globally automotive giants have stepped cautiously and here is Tata leading the EV scene with flair and flamboyance in India.

Indian cities are the perfect place for EVs. Speeds are low (where ICE engines are inefficient) with traffic often stopped for long, and braking is frequent (where EV regen braking can be helpful). Looks like Tata is one of the few that saw this rationale correctly.