[electric_eel]

Separately, found an interesting article on Hyundai's plans: https://www.wapcar.my/news/bev-vs-fc...re-wrong-33296

Do not know their compulsions, not an expert in business strategies (if at all there is one) nor geopolitics. I am always reminded of the following skit when ever green hydrogen and businesses experts comes together in one sentence.

https://youtu.be/BKorP55Aqvg?si=kApK6Ma_nakeTkV5

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by electric_eel

Do not know their compulsions, not an expert in business strategies (if at all there is one) nor geopolitics. I am always reminded of the following skit when ever green hydrogen and businesses experts comes together in one sentence.

https://Youtu.be/BKorP55Aqvg?si=kApK6Ma_nakeTkV5

That was a good one, I can imagine how the experts opinion on H2 at Toyota or Hyundai would have been bypassed.

Think of H2 as a physics and math problem, not a marketing problem.

[tbppjpr]

Another study claiming EVs producing more harmful toxic particles than ICE vehicles.

Electric vehicles release more toxic emissions, are worse for the environment than gas-powered cars: study

Although the study data was originally released in 2022 but came under light now in 2024 after the Wall Street Journal published it recently.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by exhaustpipe

Let us just agree to disagree If you were aware of G-T-D losses in our electricity network and combined them with conventional power generation capacity then we wouldn't still be at it.

In comparison to procuring crude globally, then paying for it to be shipped to our shores and additional costs associated with it (insurance etc..), transport the crude form the ports, then store it, then refine it, then transport it to the retail outlets (all of which consume a lot of electricity to function)... imagine the energy losses/costs associated with this elaborate process?

[pgsagar]

Originally Posted by exhaustpipe

Let us just agree to disagree If you were aware of G-T-D losses in our electricity network and combined them with conventional power generation capacity then we wouldn't still be at it.

Do you have these figures? G-T-D losses. I am assuming you do. I request you to submit data you have with you (for our benefit) on Generation to transmission to distribution losses of electricity vs. crude extraction point to shipping across seas to recipient ports, from ports to refineries, from refineries to retail outlets expenses. If your data backs up your claim then that should settle this issue of EV vs ICE, once and for all.

[pgsagar]

Originally Posted by UD17

My Apartment's association did not allow any charging in the basement of our building and that's where i have a lone parking spot. Same in office, most of the charging spots are taken by logistics fleet.

Can they do that? What is the legality here? You didn't buy an 18-wheeler truck which took up the entire parking space, right?. If you're paying rent, have an assigned parking spot, then who is to say what you buy or not? Since when has it become illegal to buy a passenger car which is registered by Motor Vehicle Dept.? You didn't buy an AK-47 assault rifle. If anything, your local electricity dept may object on technical grounds such as your consumption exceeds your sanctioned load, etc. None else. But Association does not have power to stop you. If you choose to wage a legal war, you will win. Now whether you choose to do so or not is a whole different matter.

Your office charging is a different thing though. You can't demand it as a matter of right.

BTW, sanctioned load can be raised and it's an easy process in my state. Person form electricity dept comes to your doorstep, collects money(official), hands you the receipt and your load is up.

[NomadSK]

Originally Posted by shortbread

In comparison to procuring crude globally, then paying for it to be shipped to our shores and additional costs associated with it (insurance etc..), transport the crude form the ports, then store it, then refine it, then transport it to the retail outlets (all of which consume a lot of electricity to function)

Originally Posted by pgsagar

Generation to transmission to distribution losses of electricity vs. crude extraction point to shipping across seas to recipient ports, from ports to refineries, from refineries to retail outlets expenses. If your data backs up your claim then that should settle this issue of EV vs ICE, once and for all.

Well it might be OT for this thread.

But there's an economical reason that the global primary energy consumption by source is Oil and that's the reason for it being termed as Black gold. Crude is very cheap to extract/transport/refine. Saudis do it at 2-3$/barrel, Russians do it 4-5$/ barrel, Norway does it at 5-6$/barrel. It's interesting that we would be able to bring that oil graph a little down with the advent of EVs, how much, that would be always debatable, but definitely a lot lot more to catch up for the renewables, as you can see in the graph (45 year history).

It would be interesting to watch out for this grabh by 2035 or 2050 for the dip in the oil consumption, but so far its going in upward trajectory, except a downward trend during covid times.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by NomadSK

Well it might be OT for this thread.

But there's an economical reason that the global primary energy consumption by source is Oil and that's the reason for it being termed as Black gold. Crude is very cheap to extract/transport/refine. Saudis do it at 2-3$/barrel, Russians do it 4-5$/ barrel, Norway does it at 5-6$/barrel.

Economical for who, definitely not the buyer?

Importers of crude pay the market rate, ballpark $80-90+ per barrel.
This is a massive bleed on the exchequer, foreign exchange, trade deficit etc.. etc.. Yes, the economics definitely benefits the Saudis, Russians, OPEC etc, but definitely not for India. It's one of the nations biggest vulnerabilities, energy dependence.

[NomadSK]

Originally Posted by shortbread

Economical for who, definitely not the buyer?

Even for the buyer, that’s why there’s the demand/supply game. All that energy produced as shown in the graph isn’t consumed by Saudi/Russia/whatever. Yes they make the most of the money, but it’s economical for other countries too, even if the price soar to 100$/barrel.

[electric_eel]

Originally Posted by shortbread

Economical for who, definitely not the buyer?

Importers of crude pay the market rate, ballpark $80-90+ per barrel.
This is a massive bleed on the exchequer, foreign exchange, trade deficit etc.. etc.. Yes, the economics definitely benefits the Saudis, Russians, OPEC etc, but definitely not for India. It's one of the nations biggest vulnerabilities, energy dependence.

And more importantly, the OP's argument was never economic. It was about which is cleaner. Just recently I was stunned when one of my relatives made this claim -- extraordinary would be the adjective that I would like to prefix the "claim" with but some how seems insufficient -- that lighting "ghee" lamps (dia's) actually produce oxygen. I find all this ICE cleaner than EV arguments just marginally better than the ghee lamp argument. Or maybe here is a brilliant idea: have an ICE engine that runs on ghee which will generate oxygen when we redline it .

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by NomadSK

Even for the buyer, that’s why there’s the demand/supply game. All that energy produced as shown in the graph isn’t consumed by Saudi/Russia/whatever. Yes they make the most of the money, but it’s economical for other countries too, even if the price soar to 100$/barrel.

No it is not. Especially when it's not dictated by demand/supply but influenced by a cartel, sanctions, geopolitics etc... In fact Saudis want $80+ oil to balance their books, nothing to do with production costs. That's fine, they're taking care of their interests like any respectable nation would do.

Demand/Supply equation and Oil will be a $20-25 commodity because there's a LOT of oil out there. Two of the biggest sources Iran & Venezuela are still under sanctions, OPEC+ majors are holding back production to choke supply, more oil coming from newer producers eg. South America and America's oil boom continues..... so no lack of oil, plenty of it. Yet nations like India are held hostage by suppliers and have no influence on prices despite being among the biggest buyers of crude, how is this fair?

It's economically better and safer to produce our own energy. We have complete control over prices, supply and not vulnerable to external factors.

[NomadSK]

Originally Posted by shortbread

No it is not. Especially when it's not dictated by demand/supply but influenced by a cartel, sanctions, geopolitics etc...

That's partially true. It's the demand which brings the geopolitcs in picture. Countries like India/China/US/Japan/Korea etc. are the ones which create this demand. I won't delve into the geopolitics part, then it will just go off tangent. Crude went into negative during covid years, there was negligible demand and over supply. Yes, it was traded in negative and India imported/booked VLCC ships as much as was possible, In-fact filled all the underground strategic reserves.

It's economically better and safer to produce our own energy. We have complete control over prices, supply and not vulnerable to external factors.

That's a perfect thought process. But the bigger question is HOW ?

India's energy consumption is around 10,000TWh, out of which 5000 TWh comes from Coal and 3000TWh comes from oil, that's approx 80%. Solar and wind together stand at 450TWh (4.5%). That's a huge margin/gap to catch up. But let's hope some day

[ValarMorghulis]

Originally Posted by NomadSK

...That's a perfect thought process. But the bigger question is HOW ?...That's a huge margin/gap to catch up. But let's hope some day

Easy. Nuclear.

And the govt is doing that. Plan is to have some 18 new power plants in the next 8-10 years which will vastly reduce power gap. Once that happens, EVs will be a no brainer in the country.

[payeng]

Originally Posted by ValarMorghulis

Easy. Nuclear.

And the govt is doing that. Plan is to have some 18 new power plants in the next 8-10 years which will vastly reduce power gap. Once that happens, EVs will be a no brainer in the country.

Yep, use the Thorium Reverses that India has in plentiful

[abhikb2005]

Originally Posted by pgsagar

Do you have these figures? G-T-D losses.

Admittedly, I am not the best person to reply. However, this greatly detailed post from Shresth_EV from another thread might help:

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/elect...ml#post5760057 (Cox Automotive: Despite huge discounts, EV sales are still not picking up)

Also, this may not necessarily have the GTD figures, but it sure has a lot of pertinent points in the EV-ICE debate.

Hope that helps.