[whitewing]

Originally Posted by wocanak

...
In Figure 2a, for Nexon Gasoline they give ~220gCO2/km, what I used is 212gC02/km this is similar. Good that there is convergence between different sources on this. In same figure, for Nexon EV the they give ~195 to 210 gCO2/km. I don't understand how they got this from the data they have given in the paper itself.

Please refer to supplementary data Supplementary Figure 4 Seasonal and hourly power generation profiles. 24-hourly electricity generation mixes on a (a) typical winter day and (b) typical summer day in India in 2018/19 [2]. (c) The 24-hourly life cycle GHG emission intensity profiles for electricity in India in summer and winter, inclusive of T&D losses [4]

The reason for variation is that over a 24hr period, the %contribution of different fuel sources (Coal/hydro/wind/solar/nuclear) to the Grid varies over the day & seasons.
This logically then corresponds to a variation in the GHG emissions as well.

Originally Posted by wocanak

After couple of hours, I have given up on figuring out how they got this. If anyone can explain, I would be grateful for the help.

Try reaching out to the authors - one is a prof in IITK Prof. Avinash Kumar Agarwal,, He may respond, given that he is an academic. for all you know he may be happy to collaborate with you as well.

The below image is also a stark reminder of the distance we need to cover in terms of energy generation from renewables (not just installed capacity)

[wocanak]

Originally Posted by whitewing

The reason for variation is that over a 24hr period, the %contribution of different fuel sources (Coal/hydro/wind/solar/nuclear) to the Grid varies over the day & seasons.
This logically then corresponds to a variation in the GHG emissions as well.
...
Try reaching out to the authors - one is a prof in IITK Prof. Avinash Kumar Agarwal,, He may respond, given that he is an academic. for all you know he may be happy to collaborate with you as well.

My doubt was not about the variation, but how they arrived at 195+ gCO2/km for BEV, when using the data give in the paper I am getting only 160 (see calculations in my post). Maybe I will reach out to the authors as you suggested and will update if I get any clarity.

As I said there is no doubt that the grid has a long way to go.

[vtires2018]

(The goal of this post is to collect - reliable data and links on EV education )

As you know we evolved from Coal based Trains to now 100% electric trains. Now sure how many travelled in those Coal powered trains, but it certainly wasn't pleasant to get a window seat!

Many journalists ignorant of science and technological breakthroughs in Battery technology, materials, metals, supply chain, recycling and other uses like battery storage and also some CEOs of certain companies propagate doubts on electric mobility.

They talk about how it is not feasible, grid's cannot support it, technology isn't there yet etc. among lame excuses, and officially lobby against it in the governments. Every now and then we see similar comments on newspapers and Youtube. Many don't even know battery chemistries used like LFP, NCM etc.

I found this excellent video made by GasTroll a good primer for most people for EV education. The reality is EVs are now "present" and not future anymore, looking at sales figures in Europe, China, USA, and now even in India with rising EV sales. Tier 2, 3 cities have better advantage over Tier 1 due to more charging spaces/land and own homes in India.

https://youtu.be/1oVrIHcdxjA

Some of these contentious and misplaced claims and/or arguments can be answered by going through few Official Government links given below ->

UK GOV ->
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ctric-vehicles

US EPA GOV
https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/el...-vehicle-myths

INDIA GOV
https://e-amrit.niti.gov.in/busting-...-vehicle-myths

Other links ->

https://thedriven.io/2021/11/03/top-...eserve-to-die/

https://www.forbes.com/wheels/features/ev-faqs/
https://www.carsloth.com/advice/electric-car-myths

https://batteryuniversity.com/articl...of-lithium-ion
https://blog.evbox.com/7-faqs-ev-charging
https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories...misconceptions

[naj]

Hello,

Frankly we dont know.

Is it a gimmick - Yes maybe. Now for tier 3 Nox regulations we have to fit so many items and consume much more fuel, leave apart technological issues - its not worth it.

IMHO, an EV if made with Hydro, Nuclear or solar right from procurement stage is better for environment, if also the charging is from renewable resources.

Israel is never corrupt like India vis-a-vis ecological and carbon foot print. Other corruption least talked about!

Thanks,
Naj

[electric_eel]

We all know that EVs do not produce any emission while operating but in fact they are much more polluting than ICE because:

1. The battery producing is polluting

2. The car manufacturing process is polluting

3. The Electricity need for EV is produced using coal.

My question, why stop here let us extend it a bit more

4. The driver who drives the EV and the passenger all emit CO2 and worse Methane

Are we done? no absolutely not Let us extend the tail pipe further.

5. The driver/passengers get their energy from food and

5.1 Agriculture is a big CO2/methane emitter
5.2 Agriculture leads to a lot of aforestation, stubble burning etc
5.3 What about the cooking involved ? Do we have anything better than
Cooking gas. If the answer is Electricity then of course it is generated by
coal.

On the other hand ICEs only appear to pollute more because it is visible. There
is hardly any emission in

1. Extracting oil from deep oil wells. (Let us ignore the oil/gas that is burnt at the well
directly to keep the calculation honest)

2. The ICE engine assembles itself with no energy required in the process. After all
we have been assembling them for 100s of if not billions of years and we are
very good at it.

3. And we don't need no coal to generate petrol, we just dig it out.

Besides there is also political reasons for not choosing EV. All lithium is from China,
an autocratic country with no respect to human rights where as oil comes from some
of the enlightened democracies like Saudi, Russia etc. Oops let me take back that
argument.

There can be many reasons why EVs might not be practical for you as a person and
India as a country and I respect that but do not be swayed by the EV bad for pollution
propaganda. At least not in this forum where people are more knowledgeable about cars, science and engineering.

[Guna]

Rowan Atkinson has been an early adopter but he says he feels 'duped' with regards to how environmentally friendly the technology is in reality.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...rowan-atkinson

[pgsagar]

Originally Posted by electric_eel

We all know that EVs do not produce any emission while operating but in fact they are much more polluting than ICE because:

1. The battery producing is polluting

2. The car manufacturing process is polluting

3. The Electricity need for EV is produced using coal.

My question, why stop here let us extend it a bit more

4. The driver who drives the EV and the passenger all emit CO2 and worse Methane

Are we done? no absolutely not Let us extend the tail pipe further.

5. The driver/passengers get their energy from food and

5.1 Agriculture is a big CO2/methane emitter
5.2 Agriculture leads to a lot of aforestation, stubble burning etc
5.3 What about the cooking involved ? Do we have anything better than
Cooking gas. If the answer is Electricity then of course it is generated by
coal.

On the other hand ICEs only appear to pollute more because it is visible. There
is hardly any emission in

1. Extracting oil from deep oil wells. (Let us ignore the oil/gas that is burnt at the well
directly to keep the calculation honest)

2. The ICE engine assembles itself with no energy required in the process. After all
we have been assembling them for 100s of if not billions of years and we are
very good at it.

3. And we don't need no coal to generate petrol, we just dig it out.

Besides there is also political reasons for not choosing EV. All lithium is from China,
an autocratic country with no respect to human rights where as oil comes from some
of the enlightened democracies like Saudi, Russia etc. Oops let me take back that
argument.

There can be many reasons why EVs might not be practical for you as a person and
India as a country and I respect that but do not be swayed by the EV bad for pollution
propaganda. At least not in this forum where people are more knowledgeable about cars, science and engineering.

Excellently put. I'm really fed up of seeing people descending on EV threads and advicing others not to buy EVs, citing environmental damage. Almost like an agenda-driven, funded by oil lobby and traditional automakers who are clueless about EVs (likes of Toyota). Your spoof will hopefully slow them down. Also funny that you see them mostly on Tata EV threads / youtube videos. I am yet to see these nay-sayers on EV threads or youtube videos of premium cars like Tesla, Volvo, Jaguar, German trio's EVs.

Originally Posted by Guna

Rowan Atkinson has been an early adopter but he says he feels 'duped' with regards to how environmentally friendly the technology is in reality.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...rowan-atkinson

I like his Mr. Bean avatar but that's about it. I don't consider him an authority on EVs. He is peddling the same information anyone can get off google. That said, I agree with him that if your running is not much and if your old car is still in good shape then it doesn't make much economic sense to buy a new EV or a new any car, for that matter. I have been holding on to my existing car myself as it has plenty of life left in it. But, I am also so badly smitten by EV's single-gear stepless acceleration that I might take the plunge. Not to mention super silence and ridiculously low running cost.

[avira_tk]

Originally Posted by pgsagar

Excellently put. I'm really fed up of seeing people descending on EV threads and advicing others not to buy EVs, citing environmental damage. Almost like an agenda-driven, funded by oil lobby and traditional automakers who are clueless about EVs (likes of Toyota). Your spoof will hopefully slow them down. Also funny that you see them mostly on Tata EV threads / Youtube videos. I am yet to see these nay-sayers on EV threads or Youtube videos of premium cars like Tesla, Volvo, Jaguar, German trio's EVs.

Yes, absolutely, they're are two kind of opinions my correct one and nazi / oil lobby funded. The only thing evs will achieve is to shift pollution to the plant. Energy choice is a political decision, Indians have no responsibility to act like Europeans and destroy our economy. There's plenty wrong with EVs, and even on videos about tesla, there's criticism about their fit and finish and poor repairability, the single biggest waste of resources. The reason these cars sell is because they're rolling in green subsidies, Tesla is literally run with carbon credit sales. In short, the average person has to subsidise the virtue signalling by psychopaths who want to save the polar bears.

Originally Posted by pgsagar

I like his Mr. Bean avatar but that's about it. I don't consider him an authority on EVs. He is peddling the same information anyone can get off google... Not to mention super silence and ridiculously low running cost.

He's not playing Mr Bean, he's literally saying his experience hasn't been great. The low cost will be over once we're all legislated into EVs, every single paise lost in taxes will be taken directly from your bank account.

[Fiero]

There are far too many variables in the 'mine to market' and 'well to wheel' cycles till the time EV hits the road to really fathom. Many reports vary wildly basis the assumption they take. It is a full fledged business war now between the old guard (oil) and the new technocrats, along with their academic and political influencers. The smart ones are invested on both sides.

But what's easier to calculate is what happens when a car hits the road.

The Central Electricity Authority https://cea.nic.in/wp-content/upload...n__2021_22.pdf estimates that, taking into account ALL sources of generation, every kwh of energy generated produces on average 715gCO2/kwh. The number would have likely come down slightly in 2023. For coal alone, this number is around 975kwh/kwh (some people have assumed 700 is for coal in this thread).

Thus, CO2 emissions from EVs becomes as follows:

- EV efficiency 5.5km/kWh - 130g/km (17.15 kmpl petrol equivalent / 20.5kmpl diesel equivalent)
- EV efficiency 7.5km/kWh - 95g/km (23.5 kmpl petrol equivalent / 28 kmpl diesel equivalent)

and so on.

Every liter of E10 petrol burned emits around 2230grams of CO2, and for diesel it is around 2660 (some say 2680) grams of CO2 per liter. You will find plenty of sources for this. So, to go below 150g/km, the mileage required would be 15kmpl petrol / 18 kmpl diesel.

There is already a noticeable CO2 reduction between EVs running around the city and regular petrols/diesels. The gap becomes much smaller on highways as speeds increase. The gap almost evaporates, or could also skew in favour of hybrids in some running conditions.

Hybrids are unfortunately an under-appreciated and non-incentivized technology that are an ideal transitional technology for a country like India. There is no reason not to promote this when its an immediate mid-term solution to reduce consumption and per km CO2 by 40-50% without the need to create ancillary infrastructure.

Certain politician(s) have been known to make stupid and sweeping statement like we will only sell EVs by 2030. There are enormous challenges in going all electric in terms of baseload power requirement and grid upgradation, which in themselves require vast amounts of new tracts of land, hundreds of billions of dollars of new power projects, storage technology to stabilize the grid and what not.

I wonder in the short to medium term what will happen when lakhs of vehicles want to charge around the same time every night? The peak load requirement would be mad. It is a slow and steady progress to get there and a holistic view of available tech should be taken (be it hybrid, hydrogen) to maximum emissions reduction (without being a maniac!).

[Shresth_EV]

Originally Posted by Fiero

Hybrids are unfortunately an under-appreciated and non-incentivized technology that are an ideal transitional technology for a country like India. There is no reason not to promote this when its an immediate mid-term solution to reduce consumption and per km CO2 by 40-50% without the need to create ancillary infrastructure.

Many states and even central govt have reached the subsidy quota for EVs (allocated budget + number of aimed subsidy beneficiaries)

They are not going to add more quota or budget for the foreseeable future. Hybrids themselves have been the beneficiary of FAME subsidy and have also expired their sales and budget quota.

It is only fair that if one quota is not being increased, then why should the other?

For those uninitiated : PSA reminder that hybrids used to get subsidy just like EVs but Maruti squandered that subsidy quota by selling nano femto hybrid (SHVS)

https://theicct.org/sites/default/fi...T_27122016.pdf

Page 2 btw

(A shame that govt document is so shoddily written and uploaded on some obscure site that I have to post the pdf of the document from ICCT who have better access, formatting and readability)

If anyone, then not govt, Maruti is to blame for wasting the quota on their fake hybrid instead of actual hybrids being sold now.

The current scenario is even footing for both EVs and Hybrids. EV subsidy quota also expired in March 2023 for ITR rebate of 1.5L and states like Delhi NCR also exhausted the quota within 1 year of the subsidy going online (2020-2021)

We don’t see any XUV400 owners saying why they didn’t get subsidy since Nexon EV was the only EV at the time and it got all of the subsidy in Delhi NCR region at the time.

Neither type of quota has been increased or excess budget allocated. You might’ve heard that EV scooters are getting costlier due to FAME subsidy rollback. Same quota system. It’s just.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...ir%20customers (Maruti gets notice for the second time for 'dubious' hybrid tech (SHVS)).

Maruti got into legal trouble too. But damage is already done.

holistic view of available tech should be taken (be it hybrid, hydrogen) to maximum emissions reduction (without being a maniac!).

Hydrogen is not even on the cards if the argument is about “peak load demand”

Each kg of H2 needs 50kWh electricity to electrolyse and compress (H2) from 10L of water. The Mirai takes 6kg H2 in its 120L tanks at a time which is 300kWh and 60L water

The model S is a car of similar size, price and segment (though with 3x the boot space, sportscar performance but let’s keep that aside) which also gets same range as Mirai ie ~600km

The energy used to make hydrogen for one Mirai can charge one model S thrice or conversely, charge 3 model S fully.

Either case, if “more electricity demand which cannot be fulfilled” is the argument, then hydrogen shouldn’t even get a remote mention since it uses 3x more energy to drive same distance as equivalent EV

Coming closer to home, if you could somehow put 40L hydrogen in the Nexon tank with a fuel cell, that’s 2kg hydrogen or 200km range. Not much different from the Nexon EV MR. (120L > 6kg => 40L > 2kg)

Nexon EV would use 30kWh to go 200km while the FCEV will need 100kWh to go same distance

[pedrolourenco]

Originally Posted by GTO

even if the electricity going in is "dirty", EVs can still make metropolitan cities more habitable.

This is exactly what I have been trying to explain to the Anti-EV Brigade for a long time.

Now, electricity isn't generated in Mumbai or Delhi, its in some small town or rural part of India.

Usually in a sparsely populated area. Plus the emissions are vented out through a very high stack. Unlike the tailpipe of a car which vents the emissions straight into your face.

Originally Posted by prasi55

Exactly, the lack of tailpipe emissions in my opinion is the biggest benefit of EVs and differentiates it from ICEs.

+1

transporting oil (via diesel ships),

Originally Posted by COMMUTER

We need to factor in the pollution from shipping which is getting ignored.

This pollution is very negligible. It always was but with the new regulations it's even better. This pollution is the least of our concerns.

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

I am not claiming EVs are entirely clean, it has a path to cleaner environment.

Spot on.

Originally Posted by rahulskumar

The only gripe I have with EV's is the fire incidents that happen during major accidents. Ive seen many reports where the complete car gets gutted down along with the people sitting inside. I will wait for few more years before plunging into EV's. I would prefer a smaller EV just for city runs with less sophistication, remember old reva ? Will wait for Maruti to launch wagon-r electric

Lot of the videos shared do not tell the full story. There was a video of a truck carrying gas cylinders which caught fire after an accident. This video was being spread as an "EV Fire". Also most of the EV fires are of the cheap Chinese rebadged scooters and that too most of the time due to some modifications done or mistake by the non trained service centres.

[Fiero]

Originally Posted by Shresth_EV

Many states and even central govt have reached the subsidy quota for EVs (allocated budget + number of aimed subsidy beneficiaries)

They are not going to add more quota or budget for the foreseeable future. Hybrids themselves have been the beneficiary of FAME subsidy and have also expired their sales and budget quota.

It is only fair that if one quota is not being increased, then why should the other?

For those uninitiated : PSA reminder that hybrids used to get subsidy just like EVs but Maruti squandered that subsidy quota by selling nano femto hybrid (SHVS)

Well, as you've said yourself, those Maruti's were not even hybrids. Another crony-capitalist scam. And real hybrids have never got any impetus.

A lower taxation regime for hybrids could have worked wonders in the short to mid term and I maintain that this is a lost opportunity.

On hydrogen, a couple of things:

- If we start going into water and power requirement and what not, then again, what I said about mine to market and wheel to well applies - too many variables. There are many heavy vehicle and industrial applications for hydrogen may be more feasible than being battery operated. Sure, the application may end up being limited but its not something to be ignored.

- All new hydrogen plants (and there are going to be massive investments) will have their own captive (or dedicated) renewable energy plants with storage technology. These plants will have a constant energy requirements so it is more a factor of base load than peak load anyways.

[electric_eel]

Originally Posted by Fiero

On hydrogen, a couple of things:

- If we start going into water and power requirement and what not, then again, what I said about mine to market and wheel to well applies - too many variables. There are many heavy vehicle and industrial applications for hydrogen may be more feasible than being battery operated. Sure, the application may end up being limited but its not something to be ignored.

There are no doubt industrial application for Hydrogen, Habers process for amonia would be the most important of them. But hydrogen as a fuel/storage for energy is a staggeringly bad idea because of high energy cost of production together with the challenges in transportation and storage difficulty.

Here are some facts which cannot be overcome by technology as they relate to the basic physics of hydrogen.

1. The boiling point of LPG (butane), Propane and CNG (mostly methane) is about -1 deg C, -44 deg C and -160 deg C respectively. In comparison H2 has a boiling point of -252 deg C. At the face of it this might not look that bad (just go a 100 deg C lower) but as you near the absolute 0 (-273 deg C) things can get really really difficult. So cryogenic H2 is ruled out (except for rockets may be).

2. The other alternative of storing H2 at higher pressure is also bad. The typical pressure of CNG is about 200-250 bars where as the hydrogen in for example Mirai is 700 bar.

3. Hydrogen being a very small molecule (unlike butane/propane/Methan) is very difficult to contain. Leaks are almost impossible to prevent.

So one can forget about any large scale hydrogen energy economy.

- All new hydrogen plants (and there are going to be massive investments) will have their own captive (or dedicated) renewable energy plants with storage technology. These plants will have a constant energy requirements so it is more a factor of base load than peak load anyways.

That is just wishful thinking. Most likely any hydrogen plant would be the so called blue hydrogen. i.e. Hydrogen produced from natural gas with the emissions captured a forte of oil and gas companies. And we all know how efficient they are at emission capture. See for example how well they do with gas flaring

https://www.worldbank.org/en/program...ring-explained

Bottom line: Any green hydrogen plant meant for energy needs would be better of supplying the renewable energy it needs directly to the grid and be done with it.

[ferrarirules]

Originally Posted by Fiero

- All new hydrogen plants (and there are going to be massive investments) will have their own captive (or dedicated) renewable energy plants with storage technology. These plants will have a constant energy requirements so it is more a factor of base load than peak load anyways.

I have just one question to all who are saying green hydrogen is the future of clean fuel. It takes 50 kwh of electricity and 9 kg of deionized water to produce 1 kg of hydrogen. Why not use the same 50 kwh of electricity to power a Nexon or MG ZS EV?

[Fiero]

Originally Posted by electric_eel

Bottom line: Any green hydrogen plant meant for energy needs would be better of supplying the renewable energy it needs directly to the grid and be done with it.

Blue hydrogen is totally irrelevant to the discussion. Please read about developments in the green hydrogen space in India. Green hydrogen is proposed to be produced in large quantities 5-10 years for various industrial usages. It is not specially being produced only for heavy vehicles, this will only be part of the potential demand. Everyone from Tata to Hyundai to Volvo have FCEV vehicles launched or launching soon. I don't see any long haul EV trucks yet.

The second wave of renewable energy development in the country has just begun. There are many large scale renewable energy plants being built across the country which will be connected to storage facilities - this will for the first time enable round the clock supply of green energy to even energy hungry industries like steel plants, hydrogen and ammonia facilities. Reliance, Adani, JSW, ArcelorMittal, NTPC, Greenko - you name it, are all already in the fray to either develop or procure round the clock power for such industries.

I will try to post some interesting articles on this soon.

Originally Posted by ferrarirules

I have just one question to all who are saying green hydrogen is the future of clean fuel. It takes 50 kwh of electricity and 9 kg of deionized water to produce 1 kg of hydrogen. Why not use the same 50 kwh of electricity to power a Nexon or MG ZS EV?

This is perhaps true, but then for a fair comparison, wouldn't we have to calculate the entire energy and water consumption for EVs right from mining to transportation to manufacturing the 50kw battery as well? A green hydrogen plant will merely use green energy for electrolysis - and green energy is free after a point.

The entire move toward EVs requires 2x-3x-whatever x power capacity enhancement in India (largely through renewable energy) to support electric vehicles. So even if producing green hydrogen and using it for FCEVs requires more energy per kilometer, it's still emission less. Also, transportation is only one of the many use cases - hydrogen has to be produced for several other industries anyways, so may as well produce some for FCEVs.

Not saying that FCEVs will be anywhere as popular as EVs, but if I'd to take a guess, you will see more FCEV trucks than EVs on the road for the next 10-15 years. You may never, of course, see an FCEV motorcycle. Lol.

Convenience and feasibility are not things I hope to see entirely banished in our lifetime.