[Apex1815]

Originally Posted by GS300

No, I haven't. The insurance premium comes to Rs. 52k. I am curious to know how much extra it is, compared to a petrol or diesel Nexon.

By maintenance expense, here I meant service, parts etc.

I have a Petrol Nexon XZ Manual bought six months before (September 2021), The insurance had costed me 30 K.

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by GS300

No, I haven't. The insurance premium comes to Rs. 52k. I am curious to know how much extra it is, compared to a petrol or diesel Nexon.

By maintenance expense, here I meant service, parts etc.

If I may suggest, can you re-share all the costs in a single post (or your first post)

Capex costs
#1 Solar panels setup
#2 Additional one-time costs that you incurred for the EV purchase (say a charging setup, depreciation impact vis-a-vis existing car sale)

Opex costs
#3 Running fuel costs on a monthly/annual basis (which you have shared) for pre-EV and post-EV phases
#4 Running Maintenance costs for vehicles (annual insurance, other future planned costs in your case - e.g. battery replacement, etc.)

I believe your house is a separate / independent house - please confirm if that is not so.

Honestly, factoring in complete solar panel costs setup in above calculations is not accurate as it's an entirely separate investment that impacts your normal household electricity costs, than just EV related. So I would suggest putting in a % value depending on how your overall household electricity costs have changed.

[prasanna_indaje]

Originally Posted by Apex1815

I have a Petrol Nexon XZ Manual bought six months before (September 2021), The insurance had costed me 30 K.

Increase in IDV may be the reason behind higher insurance premium.

OR is there a different way of calculating insurance for EVs ?

[GS300]

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

If I may suggest, can you re-share all the costs in a single post (or your first post)

Capex costs
#1 Solar panels setup
#2 Additional one-time costs that you incurred for the EV purchase (say a charging setup, depreciation impact vis-a-vis existing car sale)

Opex costs
#3 Running fuel costs on a monthly/annual basis (which you have shared) for pre-EV and post-EV phases
#4 Running Maintenance costs for vehicles (annual insurance, other future planned costs in your case - e.g. battery replacement, etc.)

I believe your house is a separate / independent house - please confirm if that is not so.

Honestly, factoring in complete solar panel costs setup in above calculations is not accurate as it's an entirely separate investment that impacts your normal household electricity costs, than just EV related. So I would suggest putting in a % value depending on how your overall household electricity costs have changed.

I agree. Solar panel installation costs should not be considered in the cost comparison. I added it separately to give that additional perspective.

That is why I had mentioned, I get an increase of Rs.1 per km run. You can take this as the running cost of the car.

So, if we have to look at the comparison in total, I would think we need to consider -

- The additional amount you need to pay for EV as compared to the ICE equivalent of a similar car
(RTO charges etc are waived off in Karnataka - do we factor that in?)

- Increase in the insurance premium (which I believe is around 20k, going by the information provided below)

- Cost of electricity at Rs.1 per km run (this is based on my data, could vary state to state, depends on driving style, nature of road etc)

- Regarding future costs, specifically battery replacement: Tata gives 1.6Lakhs km/8 years warranty on the battery. So how do we calculate this? Do we calculate the engine replacement costs for ICE cars?


We need to compare these with the fuel costs of ICE vehicle and difference in the service costs (which I assume, theoretically, will be less for EV. I do not have real data yet)

There are intangibles like increase in driving pleasure etc.

BTW - my house is an independent house, hence I could install rooftop solar panels.

[kosjam]

Originally Posted by androdev

A lot can be argued in favour of EVs but total cost of ownership isn't one of them. Not just yet. It costs a bomb to setup rooftop solar panels etc - ignoring that cost and saying my EV running costs are zero is not logical. If you take the total cost of owning a vehicle for 10 years and 1L km usage, ICE car will be cheaper overall. I am not against EVs but cost of ownership argument doesn't have merit IMHO.

Actually, you have gotten it exactly opposite.
The total cost of ownership of an EV over 10 years will come out much cheaper than an equivalent ICE vehicle. This boils down to the simple fact that running costs of an EV are only 20% of the cost of an ICE car. On top of that the servicing costs are 10% (approx) compared to an ICE car. These batteries need not be replaced after 8 year, basis a tesla report, that batteries lose approx 20% energy capacity as a worst case scenario (Lets assume this is the normal scenario in Indian setup) So the cost of renewing this lost power is approximately Rs. 60K in todays rates. (20% of 30KWH to renew, todays price of Li-ion batteries is 132 USD per KWH, USD-INR exchange rate 76)

What I am trying to say is that its the upfront cost of the vehicle which is the entry barrier, if calculated over a long period of time, it will work out much cheaper than an ICE vehicle.

[SKC-auto]

Please see below calculation, I have placed EVs at a disadvantage, did not include maintenance costs, still Nexon EV costs less.

[skyocean]

Thank you GS300 for the detailed information. For someone like me who is considering going the EV way in the near future this is really helpful.

That being said, the complete picture is still not clear. On one hand we talk about 1 rupee per kilometer and on another we are silent about the initial cost, battery replacement cost and others.

Can we have a break even excel sheet or a per km cost for EV vs ICE which takes in all factors, we have seen petrol vs diesel comparison sheets in the past. I understand there is a good number of statistics shared by our fellow bhpians, I'm not sure if anyone has already created a master sheet which takes in all factors of ownership say for a certain x number of years.

I'm listing down a few points which is still holding me back from buying an EV:

1) Life of the battery pack and its replacement cost.
2) Degradation curve of the battery as it turns old and replacement cost of cells (if possible).
3) Cost of disposal : I feel sad to throw a used AA size battery into my dustbin, the fact of throwing a ton of used battery scares me to the core.
4) The shape of the EVs today is the same that of the ICE counterparts, we all know ICE cars had to be sculpted that way because they were built around the ICE. I understand it’s a purely business decision for today, but why can’t we have a vehicle which is built as a 100% EV from ground up, say like a Tesla. This way it will be more efficient.
5) Battery is nothing but Chemistry. Reaction and biproducts. Do we have data on which biproducts are released into the atmosphere other than heat and if they are toxic to Human beings? Battery fires, Overcharging and faulty one’s release choking gases, but what about during normal operation.

What we know is little and what's being showcased is even lesser. It would be great to clear all facts, Monetary, Health and Environment. What better place than our forum to spearhead the revolution

[SnS_12]

Originally Posted by androdev

A lot can be argued in favour of EVs but total cost of ownership isn't one of them. Not just yet. It costs a bomb to setup rooftop solar panels etc - ignoring that cost and saying my EV running costs are zero is not logical. If you take the total cost of owning a vehicle for 10 years and 1L km usage, ICE car will be cheaper overall. I am not against EVs but cost of ownership argument doesn't have merit IMHO.

True. Also, if you look at the cost of the car and the cost of setting up rooftop solar panels, what is the depreciation in value one will see over an ICE car? Do EV cars command a higher resale vale over ICE cars currently?

EV cars are the new trend but buying one now is like buying a laptop in the 90's, with the features that getting added up and deflation in price it will see once it commands a prominent share compared to ICE cars.

[androdev]

Originally Posted by kosjam

Actually, you have gotten it exactly opposite.
The total cost of ownership of an EV over 10 years will come out much cheaper than an equivalent ICE vehicle. This boils down to the simple fact that running costs of an EV are only 20% of the cost of an ICE car. On top of that the servicing costs are 10% (approx) compared to an ICE car. These batteries need not be replaced after 8 year, basis a tesla report, that batteries lose approx 20% energy capacity as a worst case scenario (Lets assume this is the normal scenario in Indian setup) So the cost of renewing this lost power is approximately Rs. 60K in todays rates. (20% of 30KWH to renew, todays price of Li-ion batteries is 132 USD per KWH, USD-INR exchange rate 76)

What I am trying to say is that its the upfront cost of the vehicle which is the entry barrier, if calculated over a long period of time, it will work out much cheaper than an ICE vehicle.

All the industrial units buy diesel generators for backup power. Nobody goes for a solar power setup (except for those who do it for non-monetary reasons). If non-ICE solution was so attractive financially, the diesel generator business would have been dead by now.

I am not against EVs and I will be buying one in the future like everyone else. It's expensive, that's all I am saying

This whole 10-20% maintenance cost is BS. Just because you replace an engine with battery+motor, the car doesn't become some magic carpet. Brakes, HVAC, suspension, tires, convenience gadgets, cooling systems, accidental repairs and so on are not going to disappear in an EV. The only maintenance that is being avoided is oil+filter - how the heck does it translate to 80-90% reduction in cost of maintenance. When I send my Camry Hybrid for servicing, I get charged for some servicing of battery cooling system. Even though ICE has million child parts, as an owner I don't care about it. Even an electric motor has many child parts. I just change oil+filter and the engine will go on for 10 years and 2L km.

If the civilisation finds a cheaper alternative, it will thrive without any need for propaganda. Say that you are doing EV for environmental and lifestyle reasons even though it's more expensive in terms of TCO.

I am not against EV, I am sure my next big purchase will mostly be an EV. I also don't advise people against buying an EV. Just don't project it as something it's not.

[SnS_12]

Originally Posted by GS300

Regarding future costs, specifically battery replacement: Tata gives 1.6Lakhs km/8 years warranty on the battery. So how do we calculate this? Do we calculate the engine replacement costs for ICE cars?

What does that warranty cover a replacement if the battery goes kaput? Or do they back a minimum range over the 1.6Lakhs km/8 years that it will cover in that time on a full charge? A battery will lose its efficiency over time, which will be far less in a well maintained ICE for that same period. So, you have to see what are the chances of you replacing a battery from your own pocket as compared to a ICE in that period.

[kosjam]

Originally Posted by androdev

All the industrial units buy diesel generators for backup power. Nobody goes for a solar power setup (except for those who do it for non-monetary reasons). If non-ICE solution was so attractive financially, the diesel generator business would have been dead by now.

This whole 10-20% maintenance cost is BS. Just because you replace an engine with battery+motor, the car doesn't become some magic carpet. Brakes, HVAC, suspension, tires, convenience gadgets, cooling systems, accidental repairs and so on are not going to disappear in an EV. The only maintenance that is being avoided is oil+filter - how the heck does it translate to 80-90% reduction in cost of maintenance. When I send my Camry Hybrid for servicing, I get charged for some servicing of battery cooling system.

I am not against EV, I am sure my next big purchase will mostly be an EV. I also don't advise people against buying an EV. Just don't project it as something it's not.

The main difference between an ICE car and an EV is the engine vs the battery pack+motor. So the variation in maintenance cost will also be considered between these two only, all other expenditures being the same for both. In a car, having 3-4 litres of lub oil that has to be changed, along with oil filter, fuel filter and air filter all come out to around 5k. This cost is not there at all in an EV. straight away reduction in servicing costs.

What toyota charges for you is padding, to ensure they keep making money. Unless the system has an active liquid cooling system with a radiator, there should not be any charges for maintenance. Even then, the water is not a consumable, nor is the fan or even the radiator itself. (i do not know the type of cooling system a camry hybrid has)

A diesel backup generator is the norm because the battery cost for such a big setup is very high and the ROI for a standstill equipment is low due to the high capital cost. But that is not the case in an EV, where the initial cost is high, but its the low operating costs where it catches up and trounces the ICE. Hence your initial assumption that total cost of ownership over say 10 years is erroneous.

I never said you discourage EV usage, I am looking at it from a purely technical point of view, and the numbers clearly show that if the initial capital expenditure can be made, long term its cheaper than an equivalent ICE vehicle.

[BeingHuman]

The true cost of an EV 4 wheeler vehicle should include the cost of 1 spare battery because the cost of replacement battery will be significantly higher than say a 2 wheeler electric bike in 1.5L price range, reconditioning an 8-year-old battery with new cells in place of failed ones will not yield the same performance, it will be a compromise and a low cost solution to extend life of the vehicle. A typical well maintained petrol vehicle can run at full potential for 15years at least before it gets scrapped. We are not yet clear whether the manufacturers are going to give a full 8-year warranty on the replacement battery, because in most cases factory warranty is different from warranty given for replacement parts at dealership level.

[MasterChief]

Originally Posted by vigsom

Advantage3 - Zero noise. The EVs drive past in pin drop silence(almost). I was walking around in our quiet area yesterday, an autorickshaw went past, and then a Nexon EV and another electric bike. The noise level reduction was huuuge.

This is the one point that we in India totally ignore. The increasing vehicle numbers, many with modified silencers (especially in royal-feeling bikes; they shall be called "noisier" now) along with engine and silencer noise even from unmodified ICE vehicles, creates an aural assault on us. Shift to EVs shall improve the quality of life on roads from a noise pollution perspective as well.

[joethomasv]

Originally Posted by GS300

Solar Panel installation cost me 2.3L. This is 3kW installed capacity. Later, many friends told me 2.3L is very high for 3kw, and you can get it much cheaper etc - I do not have confirmed data about.

There’s 40% government subsidy for on-grid solar panel installation right? Here in Kerala, I paid nett 1.3 lakh for a 3.3KW system with 4KW panels. Subsidy goes down to 20% for 4KW and up.

[samm]

Originally Posted by SGK

This cost is for Panasonic solar panels. I have also received quote for around 1.8L(60K/KW) during 2019 from one of the FB vendor, but still went with the known vendor with higher cost for ease of mind. Timelines remains same as what you have mentioned (~3-4 months to complete the paperwork).

Cost depends on the brands and technology used. I installed a 2kW DC coupled pure off-grid system, with 4 x 200Ah batteries (5 panels of 400W each) for about 1.7L at Wayanad. I bought the panels (Vikram solar, monoperc) at dealer rates and took in my car. Even the batteries were bought at dealer rates directly from manufacturer. Installation was done by a local guy, and did not need any complex structures, just a couple of rails fitted to the roof was needed. Inverter also was a local brand. No monitoring, no frills system. If something goes wrong, I'm on my own, to figure out, and fix the required components.

I installed the same capacity in my home at Bangalore - 2kW (5x 400W) REC panels (monoperc, cut panel), on-grid system, with top of the line Enphase microinverter system, with per panel monitoring, and 25 year warranty for the panels and micro inverters, which costed me 2.1L. This is a AC coupled system. Also, they had to make a fabricated structure for mounting panels.

So, it all depends on what components you use. Features, performance, and support varies.