[TusharK]

Tata Motors' statement on stay against Nexon EV delisting

Tata Motors has issued an official statement on the Delhi High Court's decision to grant interim relief by directing a stay against the delisting of the Nexon EV by the Delhi Government.

Tata Motors' official statement:

“The Honourable Delhi High Court has issued notice on our writ and granted interim relief by directing a stay against the delisting of Nexon EV from Delhi Government’s eligible list of vehicles. The Honourable High Court has granted time to the Delhi Government to file counter affidavit in the matter.”

Last week, the Delhi government had delisted the Tata Nexon EV from its purchase incentives for electric vehicles' scheme, following complaints about the EV's driving range that was lower than the figure claimed by the manufacturer.

[VKumar]

Originally Posted by TusharK

[b]Tata Motors' official statement:

“The Honourable Delhi High Court has issued notice on our writ and granted interim relief by directing a stay against the delisting of Nexon EV from Delhi Government’s eligible list of vehicles. The Honourable High Court has granted time to the Delhi Government to file counter affidavit in the matter.”

A Welcome move IMO, no wonder, the men with acumen prefer to go through the judicial process, instead of explaining the technicalities to someone who is already carrying pre-conceived notions about them.

Now the Delhi govt' has to get in the act of saving their face and prove in their counter affidavit that ho and why Tata shall be kept out of it. Additionally, the court is going to demand the results of tests, and I am quite sure that the 'conditions of testing', if met, then rage will be higher, if not met, then Tata will again have a stronger argument.

Now let's see how Delhi Govt. and even the customer manage to "prove the offense beyond the reasonable doubt". This is what we call a level playing field, let the transparency and good sense prevail

An electric car consumes a lot of power in operating the air conditioning, in jam packed streets, with a good number of stop-go maneuvers, the battery consumption is ought to be very high (Not just high). In such a case, a low range can happen any day. Point is, our petrol cars give 17-18 kpl on highways, how do we forget their 5-6-7 kpl in dense city traffic and jam packed streets? Doesn't that also translate into 35-50% of the claimed FE by ARAI?

[Holyghost]

Originally Posted by VKumar

An electric car consumes a lot of power in operating the air conditioning, in jam packed streets, with a good number of stop-go maneuvers, the battery consumption is ought to be very high (Not just high). In such a case, a low range can happen any day. Point is, our petrol cars give 17-18 kpl on highways, how do we forget their 5-6-7 kpl in dense city traffic and jam packed streets? Doesn't that also translate into 35-50% of the claimed FE by ARAI?

It is not rocket science to come up with realistic testing standards since most countries have proper range figures. ARAI just have to copy some of those standards and start giving realistic figures. WLTP range for vehicles with 30-35KWh battery is 160-200KMs which is what Nexon EV gets. EPA range will be even lesser since they have higher average speeds.

Either ARAI or TATA has to pay for the unachievable tall claims. The ICE car FE figures of ARAI can be easily achieved with some effort and careful driving. But 312KM range on Nexon can be achieved only when you drive extremely slow (<40KMPH) with AC off and minimal braking. The MAX I ever achieved in my Nexon was 280KMs with AC off and driving below 50kmph.
If you drive an ICE like that, you will overshoot the ARAI claims by a big margin. In my Cruze, if I drive like that, I will get an average well above 20kmpl while the ARAI rating is 14.8kmpl. In Nexon EV, I will still struggle to touch the arai claimed figure.

Take a look at Ather scooters. They publish a realistic range of 75KM insted of ARAI figures. And most people achieve that range easily. Heck, even my E2O give the promised range 70% of the time. Tata already knew that 312KM is unachievable but they still chose to publish those figures. So either Tata/Hyundai should start publishing realistic average range OR ARAI should change their testing method.

MG was an outlier with their ZS EV with 340KM range and people easily manage to get that range. If driven below 50kmph, it can give 500KM range as tested by Autocar. Unfortunately, they have also jumped into the unrealistic range of 400+KM with their 2021 ZS EV.

[sramanat]

Originally Posted by VKumar

A Welcome move IMO, no wonder, the men with acumen prefer to go through the judicial process, instead of explaining the technicalities to someone who is already carrying pre-conceived notions about them. <Snip>

Point is, our petrol cars give 17-18 kpl on highways, how do we forget their 5-6-7 kpl in dense city traffic and jam packed streets? Doesn't that also translate into 35-50% of the claimed FE by ARAI?

Welcome move indeed. The contention here is that the government seems to be offering indirect subsidy in the form of road tax waiver (in many states) and this car somehow doesn't qualify. What was the logic behind that? To save the environment? Don't these cars use the road?

What I would like to see is the court take a fundamental look at the incentive and derive a formal structured process towards it. Specifically,
1. To what end is the incentive given? If it is to reduce dependency on fossil fuel - why is the government not giving it to someone who decides to not buy a car at all? If it is to nurture innovation or something else, how can other products qualify for it? Will an electric induction stove manufacturer claim similar benefits?
2. What is the quantum? Can it be based on what the range is - IMHO definitely not. May be based on the amount of fuel the said car saves. In theory if I can use a cell phone battery to operate a car for 100m and go on to charge and reuse it, my incentive should be the same as someone who charges the car to 1000m in one go.
3. How can it be given? This is closely tied to the first question. I feel waiver of road tax is an easy shorthand but not the ideal way. The stated purpose of road tax is to lay and maintain roads. So it doesn't make sense to waive that.

I think it all boils down to labeling the money. The education cess on your IT should exclusively be used to furthering education. What we instead have is a gaping hole into which all revenue is pumped in and all expenses are sucked out. Hence a fresh out of the college student in Pune ends up paying for farm loan waiver of a Tamil Nadu farmer. <End rant!> Instead we may end up with arbitration, compromise and none of the fundamental questions being answered.

[flanker]

Originally Posted by Holyghost

MG was an outlier with their ZS EV with 340KM range and people easily manage to get that range. If driven below 50kmph, it can give 500KM range as tested by Autocar. Unfortunately, they have also jumped into the unrealistic range of 400+KM with their 2021 ZS EV.

Given the speed limits are so low, I regularly get 400 to 470km range in city (Delhi) with the ZS EV. I haven't tested on a highway, but it will be closer to 300km. Hence the claimed range of 340km was reasonable. With the 2021 update, MG has also started to claim an inflated range. It is an unfortunate trend. This will ultimately lead to consumer dissatisfaction and hinder EV adoption.

With the ZS EV, I plan to do multiple speed runs at different average speeds (50, 70 and 90kmph) and see what kind of efficiency I get. It would be great if someone can do the same with Nexon EV as well.

[zandot]

Originally Posted by flanker

Given the speed limits are so low, I regularly get 400 to 470km range in city (Delhi) with the ZS EV. I haven't tested on a highway, but it will be closer to 300km. Hence the claimed range of 340km was reasonable. With the 2021 update, MG has also started to claim an inflated range. It is an unfortunate trend. This will ultimately lead to consumer dissatisfaction and hinder EV adoption.

With the ZS EV, I plan to do multiple speed runs at different average speeds (50, 70 and 90kmph) and see what kind of efficiency I get. It would be great if someone can do the same with Nexon EV as well.

Which ZS EV do you have? Overall thoughts?

[flanker]

Originally Posted by zandot

Which ZS EV do you have? Overall thoughts?

I have a MG ZS EV Exclusive (2020).

This is a bit off topic from the thread. I will probably write an ownership report. For now I will respond with some basic cons.

1) The ride quality is not great. The car isn't stable after hitting bumps.

2) The software suffers from many usability flaws. It doesn't remember any settings. And I mean any, from audio source, volume, vehicle settings etc. When you engage reverse, it disables the volume control without muting the audio

3) I am not sure the service people know much about the car. The TPMS wasn't functional after the first service and they didn't know why. They then re-flashed all of the system to make it work

4) There is no way to limit the maximum charge level, I keep it below 80 to prolong the life of the battery but I have to monitor this manually

5) The KERS level switch is oddly placed. To get the most out of the vehicle you have to switch the regen level often. Kona's pedal system is way superior. The omission of the regen level in Nexon EV is even greater sin

Rest, it delivers on what it promises.

MODS: Please remove the post if you think it is too off topic, or move it to a new thread. Thanks for the understanding

[AshwinRS]

Hi All,

Here's the Order passed by the Delhi High Court on 10.03.2021, for everyone's perusal.

Glad that the Court has prima facie taken a view that TML has a strong case in its favour and the Respondent has made serious aspersions on TML which have not been substantiated. (Ref. Para 64)

The Court has also stayed the operation of the Order directing suspension of the listing of Nexon EV as an EV eligible for availing subsidy under the Delhi EV Policy. (Ref. Para 67)

[MOUNTAINMAN]

Originally Posted by TusharK

Tata Motors' statement on stay against Nexon EV delisting

Tata Motors has issued an official statement on the Delhi High Court's decision to grant interim relief by directing a stay against the delisting of the Nexon EV by the Delhi Government.

A welcome move. Most of the Nexon ownership review looks positive. The ARAI figures needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. TATA shouldn't be blamed for something that ARAI has certified.

TATA Nexon is one of the best electric cars available in the market that is sort of looking reachable and closer to the masses. If Delhi Govt breaks Nexon's leg then how is 'Switch Delhi' going to work. The next best electric car option is above 20L, how many will buy an Electirc car for 20L+ and how will 'Switch Delhi' work.

Nexon is just a victim of a few govt officials who doesn't have much knowledge in this field and just know how to penalize rather than being constructive in electrification of passenger cars. These specific officials shouldn't be there if Delhi Govt is taking 'Switch Delhi' seriously.

Originally Posted by Holyghost

It is not rocket science to come up with realistic testing standards since most countries have proper range figures. ARAI just have to copy some of those standards and start giving realistic figures. WLTP range for vehicles with 30-35KWh battery is 160-200KMs which is what Nexon EV gets. EPA range will be even lesser since they have higher average speeds.

Yes its not a rocket science and there can never be a single figure that will be acceptable to all. The varying driving style and driving conditions determining the FE cannot be summed up into a single figure. It is also best to refer to many ownership reviews shared online for real life FE figures.

ARAI shows what the best figures can be achieved.
They could word the FE figures better going forward, say 'UPTO 310 km range'. That's what the retailers do (UPTO 70% OFF, and we know that not everything is on 70% SALE except for some low priced slow moving merchandise. Though I am not in favor of this gimmick but we never complain about it) and we accept it with a pinch of salt.

Originally Posted by Holyghost

Either ARAI or TATA has to pay for the unachievable tall claims.

I don't blame TATA for this, ARAI has to do better if people are not satisfied with what they certify.

Originally Posted by Holyghost

The ICE car FE figures of ARAI can be easily achieved with some effort and careful driving. But 312KM range on Nexon can be achieved only when you drive extremely slow (<40KMPH) with AC off and minimal braking. The MAX I ever achieved in my Nexon was 280KMs with AC off and driving below 50kmph.
If you drive an ICE like that, you will overshoot the ARAI claims by a big margin. In my Cruze, if I drive like that, I will get an average well above 20kmpl while the ARAI rating is 14.8kmpl. In Nexon EV, I will still struggle to touch the arai claimed figure.

The difference lies in ICE and electric motor.
Seems the ICE FE variation band is much higher and more responsive to your footwork than an electric car. There are many cases where people have been very dissatisfied with FE achieved in their ICE cars in comparison to ARAI figures. So basically it may not be an apple to apple comparison and its ARAI who has to pull up their socks if many people are not satisfied by their claims to electric cars.

[Lobogris]

Originally Posted by flanker

Given the speed limits are so low, I regularly get 400 to 470km range in city (Delhi) with the ZS EV. I haven't tested on a highway, but it will be closer to 300km. With the ZS EV, I plan to do multiple speed runs at different average speeds (50, 70 and 90kmph) and see what kind of efficiency I get. It would be great if someone can do the same with Nexon EV as well.

A few days ago, I got the ZS for a 3 day trial. I drove 200 kms on the expressway at around 90 to 95 kmph to test it in a normal driving manner. However, I am a very sedate driver and I accelerate slowly, anticipate slowdowns and step off the accelerator well in advance. I always receive well over the official mileage figures for all my cars. As an example, my VW Passat shows MID mileage of around 25 to 27 kmpl on long trips which is shocking for most people. So after driving 210 kms, I lost 55% of battery. No AC was used. Hence I would assume that with a 100% charge, I could hit almost 400 kms on the highway without AC and around 350 with judicious AC usage. I was on a totally empty expressway so I was able to maintain a steady speed of around 95. On normal highways where you have to slow down every so often and the average speed is lower, you might do even better. Is there any actual difference in the new MG ZS as in a physical change in the battery or some software update that allows more battery capacity to be used?

[flanker]

Originally Posted by Lobogris

Is there any actual difference in the new MG ZS as in a physical change in the battery or some software update that allows more battery capacity to be used?

I seriously doubt that there is any difference in the battery. MG doesn't quote the usable capacity of the battery but from many tests across the globe it is near 42.5 Kwh on the existing (old) battery. That is about 2kwh top and bottom buffer. The full capacity of the new battery is still 44.5kwh. I doubt that they can reduce the buffer by more than 1kwh if even that. Also, 1Kwh won't make that much difference in the range. If anything, they might bring an update to increase the top buffer. They have already done that in UK. Currently in India the battery is charging to 455V+ (4.21V per cell). 4.21 volts is not really good for the life of the cells. They have reduced it to 450V in UK (4.16V per cell).

MG ZS EV sells in many markets (Thailand, UK, Norway, China etc) and have been recently launched in Australia and New Zealand. None of these countries including China haven't received any update to the battery.

Only thing different about the new ZS EV in India is the change to 215 55 R17 from 215 50 R17. The ground clearance has also changed exactly to the tyre size difference.

Did you tally the distance with GPS? The existing version of ZS is very accurate on distance measure. It can be so that with tyre size change the calibration has been compensated too far. On Nexon EV few people have reported as much as 8% error on the odometer

[Lobogris]

Originally Posted by flanker

I seriously doubt that there is any difference in the battery. MG doesn't quote the usable capacity of the battery but from many tests across the globe it is near 42.5 Kwh on the existing (old) battery. That is about 2kwh top and bottom buffer. The full capacity of the new battery is still 44.5kwh. I doubt that they can reduce the buffer by more than 1kwh if even that. Also, 1Kwh won't make that much difference in the range. If anything, they might bring an update to increase the top buffer. They have already done that in UK. Currently in India the battery is charging to 455V+ (4.21V per cell). 4.21 volts is not really good for the life of the cells. They have reduced it to 450V in UK (4.16V per cell).

MG ZS EV sells in many markets (Thailand, UK, Norway, China etc) and have been recently launched in Australia and New Zealand. None of these countries including China haven't received any update to the battery.

Only thing different about the new ZS EV in India is the change to 215 55 R17 from 215 50 R17. The ground clearance has also changed exactly to the tyre size difference.

Did you tally the distance with GPS? The existing version of ZS is very accurate on distance measure. It can be so that with tyre size change the calibration has been compensated too far. On Nexon EV few people have reported as much as 8% error on the odometer

We are sort of hijacking the Nexon thread but at least it's about an EV! The distance was calculated from Google maps, not the odometer. The reason I was asking was that I was being offered around 1.25 lakh discount on a 2020 model. In Thailand they offer active safety aids like lane assist, collision avoidance and adaptive cruise control which are missing in India at the same price.

[flanker]

Originally Posted by Lobogris

We are sort of hijacking the Nexon thread but at least it's about an EV!

Yes, we have. I was thinking I would soon get a warning or suspension.

Originally Posted by Lobogris

The reason I was asking was that I was being offered around 1.25 lakh discount on a 2020 model.

If the car is not display/show car or isn't old. Batteries age more in the first year even if they are not used. Especially if they are subjected to high ambient temperatures with high state of charge. Also hopefully it is not a repaired vehicle. Last time I was at MG workshop in Gurgaon they had an unsold car being repaired for body damage. It had no mileage on it and the front had been completely destroyed.

If all checks out, I will take the older model for 1.25 lacs discount. I am pretty sure the "new" battery is just a marketing gimmick.

Originally Posted by Lobogris

In Thailand they offer active safety aids like lane assist, collision avoidance and adaptive cruise control which are missing in India at the same price.

Yes, we can blame the 15% duty on CKD EVs.

On inflated range claims, be it Nexon or MG ZS EV, it is not right for the manufacturers. Having said that, the Delhi government action wasn't correct. Thankfully for now it has been overturned.