[SKC-auto]

Kushan Mitra of The Print is known EV hater, being an auto journalist he could not figure it out yet why Hydrogen cars are stupid, still believes Hydrogen is the future.

[ravradha]

Quick replies and broader knowledge with objective objections expressed in the above posts in reply to the article i posted explains why team bhp is one of the best places to get the right perspective. It's important that we have these healthy discussions.

[ruzbehxyz]

In vehicles that come with both petrol and electric options, the electric variant actually depreciated faster than the petrol model. Now, a cursory check through some used-car websites in India did not show conclusive evidence of dramatic depreciation, but some vehicles like the Kia EV6 GT Line from 2023 with less than 5,000 kilometers on the odometer could be bought for one-third of its on-road price. Whereas, a similarly priced petrol or diesel car would have depreciated around 15 per cent in a year.

But why is this the case? Why do electric cars fail to hold onto value unlike petrol or diesel vehicles? Personally, I believe in the main contention of the WIRED article. The rapid rate of technological innovation in the electric vehicle industry is akin to that of smartphones.

The iPhone 13 that you bought for Rs 75,000 two-and-a-half years ago is now available for less than Rs 50,000. And, if you sell it today, you would probably get not more than a third of its price.

The newer iPhone 15 has a faster processor, better camera, and there is a new iPhone 16 on the way which would be even better.

Similarly, when it comes to electric passenger cars, and even two wheelers for that matter, everything could change rapidly. The type of battery chemistry could change with change in the prices of different lithium-ion batteries. The type of motor could also change with innovation in magnets and drive technology while battery management software and vehicle software could witness dramatic changes. In fact, many electric vehicles are running on automotive-grade Snapdragon processors, which are very similar to those inside smartphones. And you know how fast smartphone processors evolve. The rate of change is so rapid that a car can become obsolete in just six months of purchase.

And that is not the case with an internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicle, because here the technology is relatively stable. Yes, there are still improvements being made in ICE technology – for example the new Z-series engine in the new fourth-generation Maruti Swift is better in terms of performance and efficiency than the old K-series engine that powered the older variant of the car. But the K-series engine lasted over 15 years with minor modifications in a host of Maruti Suzuki vehicles. If you own an ICE vehicle, you would know that your car will remain more or less the same for 30-36 months after its launch, before a facelift and a new generation variant is introduced every 6-7 years. You have seen it with the Honda City, the Hyundai Creta, and the Maruti Swift.

Minor cosmetic modifications could occur here and there annually like a special edition with a new paint job or a minor feature improvement. But the ICE car lifecycle is clearly defined and consumers are well aware of it. However, it is not the same in the case of EVs because the rapid technological advancement is catching the entire value chain off guard, from the manufacturer to the consumer.

And possibly it also requires us as consumers to get used to a different mindset – that our cars are like our mobile phones that can become obsolete quickly. But this will not be easy. I don’t know how many people can possibly treat their one to two-year-old vehicle as ‘old’. But then again, we have gotten used to rapidly changing fashion and phones, so why not cars?

Source: The Print.
Link: https://theprint.in/opinion/ev-lifes...hones/2236789/

[rogues]

Originally Posted by ruzbehxyz

In vehicles that come with both petrol and electric options, the electric variant actually depreciated faster than the petrol model. Now, a cursory check through some used-car websites in India did not show conclusive evidence of dramatic depreciation, but some vehicles like the Kia EV6 GT Line from 2023 with less than 5,000 kilometers on the odometer could be bought for one-third of its on-road price.

Where!!? Kia EV6 GT with 5,000 on the ODO is an absolute steal at 25-26 Lakhs! I'd take a loan and buy it immediately.

My EV car is not like my smartphone that stops getting update, become a security nightmare or slow after 2 years. With 20k running per year, my battery SoH will still be atleast 96%. I still have around 6 years of warranty on the battery. It makes no sense for me to upgrade unless I want to.

If I buy a car today and it still meets my needs after 8 years, why should I replace it? In a capitalistic society, there's always something better on the market, but there's no reason to chase after it unless you genuinely need it. Wanting something better isn't an issue with EVs; it's a personal choice.

I used to hear the same poor argument with computers 10-15 years ago.

[BullettuPaandi]

While I agree with the general gist of the post that 'EV's resale value is generally precarious', the title reads a bit misleading. I read 'EV lifespan is getting shorter' and thought 'battery tech is worsening'.

EVs in theory could last just as much as ICEs, if not longer due to less complex parts and systems. Problem is that batteries are highly sensitive to state of charge and charge cycles. It requires keeping the state of charge and charge cycles as low as possible, with charging up to 100% occasionally & storing at around 50%, to get an ideal lifespan out of a battery. This is simply not practical with a car, given it's range at low state of charge and our needs.

ICEs are currently the better bet in the used market, as there's been a disproportionate amount of R&D invested on ICEs over the years, and are currently well and widely adopted, meaning any issues that may easily occur, may also easily be fixed with the help of the mechanic right around the street.

[ruzbehxyz]

Over 51 per cent electric vehicle owners in India want to return to ICE vehicles, a recent study has found.

Park+, a platform hosting approximately 1.5 crore cars and over 25,000 verified e-car owners, has unveiled findings from a recent survey targeting 500 e-car owners in Delhi NCR, Mumbai, and Bengaluru. This study sought to understand the mindset of e-car owners in an evolving electric vehicle (EV) market in India. Key insights from the survey include charging anxiety, maintenance costs, resale value, owner satisfaction, and popular car choices among e-vehicle owners.

One of the central concerns highlighted by the survey was charging anxiety, affecting 88% of e-car owners. This issue has surpassed range anxiety, which had traditionally been a significant concern. Despite the presence of more than 20,000 EV charging stations across India, respondents voiced their frustration over the opaque visibility and accessibility of these stations. They emphasized that finding a safe and functional charging station remains a considerable challenge, even as most drivers restrict their intercity journeys to less than 50 kilometers.

Maintenance costs emerged as another critical issue, troubling 73% of e-car owners. According to the respondents, their electric vehicles often felt like "a black box" that was difficult to understand. Compounding this issue was the inability of local mechanics to solve minor problems. Many e-car owners also expressed frustration over not being able to obtain a clear picture of repair costs due to the lack of multiple repair shop options.

A dramatic decline in resale value also surfaced as a significant concern. About 33% of the respondents stated that when they casually checked their e-car's resale value, the quotes they received were much lower than expected. The resale value of e-cars is anticipated to improve as the current EV ecosystem matures. Unlike Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) vehicles, which can be easily valued based on age and mileage, there are no widely used tests to determine the quality of an EV's battery, which contributes to 30% of its overall value.

Source: Economic Times.

[carlover86]

Originally Posted by ruzbehxyz

In vehicles that come with both petrol and electric options, the electric variant actually depreciated faster than the petrol model. Now, a cursory check through some used-car websites in India did not show conclusive evidence of dramatic depreciation, but some vehicles like the Kia EV6 GT Line from 2023 with less than 5,000 kilometers on the odometer could be bought for one-third of its on-road price. Whereas, a similarly priced petrol or diesel car would have depreciated around 15 per cent in a year.

I have met personally with the Board of Air of California Ms. Liane Randolph and discussed how are bad marketing practices by companies which dont want to move away from ICE engine impacts users in US. She told me that this practise is common and very soon Indian Market would also be flooded with many such baseless researches. I am ready to take 3 EV6 at the price they mentioned in article. Please understand ICE vehicles will only levitate towards more pollution. There are cases where ICE vechicles make sense, but in my eyes, those are really rare. For those edge cases, I am ready to take an ICE car on rent, and probably 3 times costlier car on rent in comparision to the price I would have paid to own an ICE! EV is not the future, it is present and no one can deny it. Such reports will only by camouflaging but well read and wise customers understand everything.

A big fake study and news.

[anandhsub]

I see only one 20K driven 2022 Kia EV6 on sale in Bangalore and the asking price is a lofty 51 lakh...

[thejaguar]

Originally Posted by ruzbehxyz

In vehicles that come with both petrol and electric options, the electric variant actually depreciated faster than the petrol model. Now, a cursory check through some used-car websites in India did not show conclusive evidence of dramatic depreciation, but some vehicles like the Kia EV6 GT Line from 2023 with less than 5,000 kilometers on the odometer could be bought for one-third of its on-road price. Whereas, a similarly priced petrol or diesel car would have depreciated around 15 per cent in a year.

I will buy that EV6 in a heartbeat if the price you are claiming is correct. Please send me the link!

[skb1811]

What's the average battery life of an EV? 7-8 years max?
Compare that to an ICE car that was built 10 years ago, let's say a 2014 chevy Cruze, it's already 10 years old, probably racked up a LOT of kilometres, and if the engine is maintained well, produces emissions similar to newer diesels.. and if you mod an aftermarket DPF/EGR into it, there ya go, even lesser emissions, in a car that can probably live for 10 more years, that will use less parts in the long run.

What happens to a new EV after its warranty period runs out? Would people still want to change the battery in it to use it?

It's like a Flagship phone from 5 years ago, sure the hardware is good, but the battery holds it back.. but at least in a phone, the battery is fairly inexpensive and can be changed, and the software can be updated to newest(ish?) via Custom OS installs.. I don't think it's easy to make a complete software change like that for EVs..

[rkv_hunter]

Originally Posted by skb1811

What's the average battery life of an EV? 7-8 years max? ..

This seems to be the most popular and the most repeated misconception about EV cars. Some research on Battery chemistry evolution will show that it is not true.

The battery of early electric cars (probably Lithium Ion Polymer) cannot be compared to current chemistries of LFP batteries. Smartphones and Laptop batteries are made to last 4-5 years and are different from EV batteries.

Current chemistries and Battery management systems are capable of lasting at least 2000 to 5000 charging cycles which translates to at least 4-6 lac kms.

For average Indian car life 2-3 lac kms, the current batteries will most likely do that kind of mileage and still be most likely at 80-90% capacity. There will always be exceptions on lower and higher end.

There are EV negatives, like reliable charging infra for long trips and the wait times, lack of competent servicing guys, etc.

At least at current stage of evolution battery life and safety is no longer a negative.

[nidhikapoor]

Originally Posted by skb1811

What's the average battery life of an EV? 7-8 years max?

Absolutely wrong. Most cars the battery will outlast the car itself.

[linuxworld]

Originally Posted by skb1811

What's the average battery life of an EV? 7-8 years max?
Compare that to an ICE car that was built 10 years ago, let's say a 2014 chevy Cruze, it's already 10 years old, probably racked up a LOT of kilometres, and if the engine is maintained well, produces emissions similar to newer diesels.. and if you mod an aftermarket DPF/EGR into it, there ya go, even lesser emissions, in a car that can probably live for 10 more years, that will use less parts in the long run.

Blade batteries that BYD produces are officially claimed to have 5000 charging cycles. Assuming a 300km range per charge (though the official WLTP range is above 400km!) in 5000 charging cycles, we will get 1500000km. Thats massive. At least on the battery front, comparison with ICE is not ideal.

[shashant]

Originally Posted by thejaguar

I will buy that EV6 in a heartbeat if the price you are claiming is correct. Please send me the link!

It got me excited as well and I opened car wale but nothing that is less than 52 lakh

https://www.carwale.com/used/kia-ev6-cars-in-mumbai/

[BullettuPaandi]

Originally Posted by linuxworld

Blade batteries that BYD produces are officially claimed to have 5000 charging cycles. Assuming a 300km range per charge (though the official WLTP range is above 400km!) in 5000 charging cycles, we will get 1500000km. Thats massive. At least on the battery front, comparison with ICE is not ideal.

A lot of terms aren't standardised; so going by the claims is a bit tricky. I consider the warranty provided to be a safer and easier 'rule of thumb' kind of measure. We can't really put charging cycles and range together like two-and-two; here's why:

Manufacturers can define charging cycle in their own terms. 0% to 100% sounds intuitive, at least to me, to be called as 'one cycle'. But it's typically near zero to 100%; they also can include partial cycles - 50% to 100%, or again, in their own terms. Keep in mind that charging a battery through its lower states of charge, means less degradation. Speaking of which, they also define how much degradation is significant; but at least they (mostly) provide this info on their websites - such as 70% of degradation by 5000 cycles. 'By' is the keyword here; meaning, it's not that the battery doesn't degrade at all before the 5000th cycle. It also doesn't necessarily mean that degradation would be 40% by 10,000 cycles.

These make judging a used EV trickier than a used ICE, and what I believe one of the earlier posts meant by saying "EVs feel like a black box". It's easier for a buyer to judge the ICE car - I can see the km run & mileage is easy to guess based on other similar cars and what people who drive those get; some even show a reliable kmpl figure on the MID based on past consumption. In EVs, how reliable the range shown in the MID depends on the (battery tech and) when was the last time the EV owner charged it to 100%; even then, it's not particularly as reliable as the mileage figure on the ICE's MID. A 50,000km run EV kept mostly around 70-100% of charge while in use, would have degraded significantly more than an identical EV kept mostly around 30-60%. The buyer has no way of verifying this.

Quoting my earlier post:

Originally Posted by BullettuPaandi

EVs in theory could last just as much as ICEs, if not longer due to less complex parts and systems. Problem is that batteries are highly sensitive to state of charge and charge cycles. It requires keeping the state of charge and charge cycles as low as possible, with charging up to 100% occasionally & storing at around 50%, to get an ideal lifespan out of a battery.

Just to re-iterate, I have no doubt that an EV could last as much as an ICE, if not more. This post is not a direct comparison of EV vs ICE in terms of longevity; rather just to add that the uncertainty around EVs is what, I think, is hurting EVs' resale value.