[speedmiester]

Originally Posted by lurker

What if they ask for 30 days lead time for new battery pack to arrive. And owner or taxi operator refuses to pay EMI saying my car is not useable saar, why should I pay EMI ? What does a bank do with such a vehicle, which has a just replaced battery pack, why should anyone else repose faith in such a vehicle ? Why should people take such a risk especially if the company is known for poor record in honouring their warranties.

How is this any different from IC engine cars.
If one needs a engine replacement, the timeline can stretch upto a month or more depending on the popularity of the car. Will any owner not pay his EMI just because the car is not working?

E2O and Revas are discontinued and obviously the service and spares availability will suffer. This also happens with IC engine cars.

The resale value will depend on the popularity of the model in the market and how it fares against the competition.

Traditionally EVs have not fared well in the used car market because of lack of awareness and lack of viable models. I sold my E2O after 2.5 years and with 24000Kms for a price which I thought was fair.

Globally resale value of EVs are on par with fossil fueled cars. We might see a similar trend in India as well.

[V.Narayan]

I would expect the resale value of EVs to be healthier than ICE cars for the next 10 to 15 years or so.

This so because ICE cars will have a tighter usable life defined by law. Many ICE owners will with time be under pressure, by regulation, to sell/scrap their cars and replace with EVs. Some of this demand will get met by the production of new EVs but there will be a substantial spill over driven by buying power that will veer towards second hand EVs. Eventually resale price by 2040 or so will be not very different from that of ICE cars today. Another factor which we cannot accurately judge today will be the impact of the two factors of the battery life/quick replacement facility and the fact that EVs will wear and tear less than a conventional ICE.

As we all know if we wish to leave behind a livable planet to our grand children one of the changes we need to make is to outgrow our ICE vehicles. The other is to switch as soon as possible (will take 3 to 4 decades) to renewable energy.

[libranof1987]

This would entirely depend on the warranty/service guarantee on the battery pack, isn't it. Considering that it is the single largest component on an EV and can be easily replaced (the ease, not the cost), if the battery has a long enough warranty period or can be changed at a reasonable price, this might actually create a secondary market for them.

I do feel that it will take a while for there to be an organized used car market; cost is not the only apprehension people have in going for EVs. So, a pre-owned EV will be met with more skepticism than a new one. Once EVs prove their operability in the next ~5, maybe 10 years, we'll have a better idea.

[vijaysrk]

I wanted to resurrect this thread, since I'm in the market for an EV to replace my wife's ageing i10 AT.

Now that it's been a good 4-5 years of EVs from multiple brands being sold in the Indian market, can anyone comment on how EVs compare with their ICE counterparts on resale value?

From the limited research I did, it appears that:
- Battery warranty is the biggest concern for buyers, followed by range drop through the life of the car (Tata EVs seem to be more affected here than other brands)
- A battery replacement will cost on an average ~40% of the price of the car
- Some of the big organized car resale plyers don't deal in EVs at all, owing to their novelty/lack of demand, etc.
- EVs are listed on portals like OLX at depreciated prices comparable to ICE cars, but the actual sale price tends to be MUCH lower than the one quoted.
- Used car showrooms take on an average, 5-6 times longer to sell an EV than a comparable ICE car (my sample space is limited to two dealers in Bangalore, so take this with a pinch of salt)
- The impending entry of new battery chemistries (Sodium ion, etc.) is making many would-be buyers sit on the sidelines for now.
- The best pay-off from using an EV seems to be limited to people with a very high daily running (80km or more), mostly within the city.

Would love to hear the experiences of those who have either sold their EV or bought a pre-owned one!

[jinojohnt]

Let's also remember that battery prices have steadily been declining over the years. Hence replacement batteries "may not" be as pocket-pinching in 10 years as it seems today.

[pedrolourenco]

Originally Posted by PrideRed

Is 8 year warranty an indication of the life span of battery?

8 years warranty does not mean that the battery will die in 8 years.

If 8 Year is indeed the battery life, what about resale?

If you calculate the savings vis a vis a Petrol / Diesel car over the 8 years (Not just fuel but service too), the amount you have saved will make the resale value irrelevant.

Originally Posted by JayKis

The battery charge loss on a Tesla Model S over 5 years has been less than 10%. The typical battery loss at 160,000 miles is less than 10%. Hence the depreciation should be far lesser than a ICE car.

+1

Originally Posted by coolkurt

When more players enter the segment and there's competition, it'll get affordable.

More players, more volumes and advances in battery technology will definitely bring prices down.

Originally Posted by GTO

Let us simplify. Resale value matters only until the car is 8 - 10 years old. Post that, all of them fall off a cliff or are too low for the 3rd / 4th owner of the car to bother.

Exactly. And you are talking about ICE vehicles. In case of EV's, the savings over 8 years more than compensates this depreciation.

Now, we've already seen that high quality batteries are still performing well at the 7 - 8 year mark (e.g. Tesla), while manufacturers are also rolling out 8-year battery warranties (e.g. Hyundai).

Post 8 years it is only some cells that will fail, not the entire battery. All you have to do is replace that particular bank of cells, not the entire battery.

Hence, as long as you're buying from a manufacturer of repute, I'm really not worried.

Even some aftermarket suppliers are ok. There is someone in Pune who does ad-on battery packs for the E2O and those are quite reliable.

Originally Posted by Thilak29

Car batteries are expected to last much longer than 8 years with technologies available today, they also become excellent energy storage devices for other less critical purposes even after decommissioned from the car, so reuse use cases exist.

True. You can milk these batteries till the last drop.

I recently picked up a Nexon EV.

Is my driving that much that it makes financial sense?
No.

So why did I buy it?
Just for the driving pleasure. Well with the Celerio sold we were left with the X1 and the Mini. Both not ideal cars to do the day to day chores. We needed the car to be reasonably fun to drive.

The Polo TSI ticked all the boxes. But it was discontinued. I did a detailed comparison between the Figo TDCI and the Altroz Diesel. By the time I came home from the ship, the Figo was discontinued. So I went to book the Altroz. I told the dealer that I would shift my booking to the Altroz EV if that was launched.

Meanwhile fellow BHPian Dinar had done all the research on the Nexon EV. So decided to just buy that as there was no sign of the Altroz EV.

Am I happy with the purchase?
Hell yes. Specially since I got the 3L subsidy, I ended spending not much more that I would have on the Altroz (plus remap).

Am I worried about resale?
No.

[Hayek]

The era when people felt that insufficient battery life will limit the resale value of EVs is over. It is very clear that you have less than 15-20% degradation for EV batteries over 1500- 2000 cycles or 200,000 miles.

In short a vehicle with a 300 Km initial range will still have a 240 Km range after 300,000 kms (assuming a charging cycle every 200 km). Given most Indian users run less than 20,000 km per year, this is more than enough to give you a 15 year life - as opposed to diesels that you may be forced to scrap in 10 years.

The other point some have made on this thread is that EV technology advances and that will reduce resale value. But that will be more true for ICE cars - as regulators will be much more inclined to impose scrapping rules on (10 year) old ICE cars in a world where half the cars are EVs.

Of course, barring the entry segment, the premium you pay for EVs cannot be recovered that easily except if you use the car a lot. For a Nexon, SA similarly equipped Petrol is ₹13 l ex showroom vs ₹ 19 l for the EV Max. If you run 10000 Km per year like I do, your fuel cost for the Petrol would be less than ₹ 1 lakh per year vs ₹ 10000 for the EV. That gives you a payback of over 6 years, which is probably justifiable, ignoring registration costs (which vary by state). The lower registration on EVs in most states makes them even more attractive.

For luxury products, in the absence of the registration difference, the situation would have been far worse for EVs. The lower registration on EVs reduces the difference between an BMW iX and an X5 to ₹ 13 l from ₹25 l in Mumbai. But whether state governments will keep “subsidising” luxury EVs is a debatable point. But for now, picking up an EV in high tax states like MH seems to make immense sense.

[Shresth_EV]

Originally Posted by Hayek

this is more than enough to give you a 15 year life - as opposed to diesels that you may be forced to scrap in 10 years.

But that will be more true for ICE cars - as regulators will be much more inclined to impose scrapping rules on (10 year) old ICE cars in a world where half the cars are EVs.

These calculations also assume that somehow ICE car values will not drop in non NCR areas as well. I’d love to see what manufacturers say on warranty for putting E20 in E10 engines and then covering the damage. Will they cover that? I doubt.

If the prospective 2nd buyer KNOWS that the car he’s buying is E10 and over time, the parts WILL FAIL, how does it change the resale dynamics for ICE? Have people wondered that? I guess not. Ignorance is bliss.

It’s been a sellers market for a while now, I don’t think that’ll stay the same for eternity.

Originally Posted by vijaysrk

- Some of the big organized car resale plyers don't deal in EVs at all, owing to their novelty/lack of demand, etc.

It’s still not been long enough for EVs to have been sold for the owners to consider switching. You see, even in USA, the #1 upgrade from Prius has been the model 3. But only a tiny fraction (<1%) EV owners go back to buying an ICE/hybrid after experience the EV.

Since EV owners become powertrain loyal after first experience, it can be anecdotally assumed they won’t be replacing the EV at least, with an ICE/hybrid later.

And since the EV is neither old enough to need replacement in eyes of the owners, nor is there a disruptive new option in their budget like say 500km range or 5min charging, they won’t change the current EV with another EV just yet.

Since there still isn’t a “tempting” upgrade from the Nexon EV, it’s natural that owners don’t wish to upgrade so soon, leaving very little EVs on sale. By far, it’s the Nexon EV which is most common on the road by sales (Tiago will overtake soon but that’s not even 1y old, so o feasible to expect Tiago on second hand market)

It’s like, owners are holding onto their cars rather than selling them.

- EVs are listed on portals like OLX at depreciated prices comparable to ICE cars, but the actual sale price tends to be MUCH lower than the one quoted.

- Used car showrooms take on an average, 5-6 times longer to sell an EV than a comparable ICE car

I mean, it’s not like the cars are too old. Owners won’t be happy selling their 2y old car for half price, would they?

And the time argument can be directly compared to the ICE car sales vs EV sales too.

EVs made 2.37% of sales in june’23 (7779 EVs over 327K total 4W sales)

Naturally, a similar ratio of sales will be expected in the pre owned market too.

And seeing the number of options available in market today, vs 3y ago, now you have

Glorified e riskhshaw (comet) : 8L

Tiago : 9-12L

Tigor/eC3 : 12-13.5L

Nexon/400EC : 14.5-17L

NEV max/400EL : 16L-19L

Seeing the options, say someone is in market for a 12L EV. Why would they buy, say, a second hand Nexon EV rather than loaded Tiago (which is new, will have full 8y warranty) and more features?

If there weren’t as many options, particularly at lower prices, then it would make sense for people desperately wanting the EV for running cost/other reasons to go for preowned route. But that’s not the case anymore. EVs now cover each price point at 1L gap each, all the way from 8L to 25L (not mentioned ZS and kona)

- The impending entry of new battery chemistries (Sodium ion, etc.)

I doubt that the avg buyer is aware regarding these things. The level of awareness in enthusiast circles vs avg buyer (only searches about cars once every decade when upgrading) is very stark.

Those who do, also recognise that by the time they will actually be commercialised, they’d be ready to replace an EV they buy today.

- The best pay-off from using an EV seems to be limited to people with a very high daily running (80km or more), mostly within the city.

Frankly, there are still many misconceptions about EVs even in enthusiast circles like our own Team BHP. Now just extrapolate those myths to the people totally out of the loop.

Needless to say, you’ll come across absolutely crazy questions on signals or charger or in parkings. Trust me, been there done that. Finance angle is in fact apparent to most, it’s the other things which make it appear as though they’re purposely told these things.

I can’t even think that the questions that they come up with are sincerely their own genuine doubts

[volkman10]

New and used EVs take twice as long to sell compared to last year.

Selling a new car is getting harder for dealers in general, with their inventory staying in the lot for a longer period of time

The data for July 2023 shows that it takes an average of 50 days to sell a new EV, which is almost double the time it took in July 2022 (25.2 days). The situation is even worse for used EVs, now selling at an average of 57.8 days compared to 26.4 days last year. While this is bad news for most carmakers with EVs in their range, it is actually good news for prospective EV buyers, as they can strike better deals and benefit from wider availability.

The post-pandemic world initially suffered from great demand and poor supply of new vehicles, with buyers having no other option than turning to the used car market. While supply is no longer an issue, buyers remain interested in used vehicles, which may present a better value compared to a new but pricier equivalent.

The average used car independent of powertrain type costs $33,240 and takes 49 days to sell which is 3.6% cheaper and 6.1% faster compared to last year. On the other hand, the average new car costs $45,936 and needs 48.2 days to sell which is 3.8% more expensive and 25.7% slower compared to last year.

The fastest-selling new cars are the Toyota Grand Highlander Hybrid (9.2 days), the Range Rover (10.4 days), and the non-hybrid Toyota Grand Highlander (10.7 days). As for the fastest-selling used cars, those are the Honda HR-V (34.4 days), the Acura ILX (35.3 days), and the Toyota Highlander Hybrid (36.6 days).

Analysts believe that demand for used cars will remain strong as prices slowly drop over the next 6-12 months. On the other hand, dealers will need to work harder to sell new cars especially when it comes to the most popular models which are offered at full prices despite spending more time in the lots.





Link

[ferrarirules]

Originally Posted by volkman10

New and used EVs take twice as long to sell compared to last year.

On an average EV cars are on the market for 14 days longer than ICE cars but see the avg resale price. Tesla Model 3 avg. resale price is $35,000 with new one costing around $38,000 that is a very good resale price. Leaf is selling for $20,000 when the new one costs around $29,000. That is also not bad.

The EVs are at an average higher resale price than their ICE counterparts. This will be resulting faster moving inventory of the used ICE cars than used EV cars

Finally the people selling the EVs would have already raked in some fuel savings making their deals sweeter.

[volkman10]

Used EVs are facing 33% price drop, longer selling times.

Polestar 2, Ford F-150 Lightning, and Kia EV6 are among the slowest-selling used EVs.

To put that in context, overall used car prices were down by 5.1 percent last month, while average used hybrid car prices were down by 9.6 percent, substantially lower than the 33.7 percent price drop used EVs are facing. And EVs were on the market nearly 1.5 times longer compared to last year. On average, a used EV took 52.4 days to sell in October 2023, while the average used car took 49.2 days. This marks a significant change from a year ago when used EVs were on the market for an average of 37.5 days, indicating a considerable decline in demand.

Used EVs taking the longest to sell are non-Tesla models, including the Kia EV6, Ford F-150 Lightning, Polestar 2, and Volkswagen ID.4 among others. That said, the Rivian R1T was the fastest-selling used EV in October 2023—it remained on the market for 35.5 days. The Chevrolet Bolt EV and EUV, and the Tesla Model 3 and Model Y were also among the fastest-selling used EVs, as highlighted in another report last month.

Link :

[ravradha]

I came across an interesting article which discussed the comparatively less resale value of electric vehicles. Some of the earlier posts also echoes the same view while some don't. Here is the article for your reference.

EV vs. ICE vehicle Resale Values

In vehicles that come with both petrol and electric options, the electric variant actually depreciated faster than the petrol model. Now, a cursory check through some used-car websites in India did not show conclusive evidence of dramatic depreciation, but some vehicles like the Kia EV6 GT Line from 2023 with less than 5,000 kilometers on the odometer could be bought for one-third of its on-road price. Whereas, a similarly priced petrol or diesel car would have depreciated around 15 per cent in a year.

But why is this the case? Why do electric cars fail to hold onto value unlike petrol or diesel vehicles? Personally, I believe in the main contention of the WIRED article (Reference given below). The rapid rate of technological innovation in the electric vehicle industry is akin to that of smartphones.

The iPhone 13 that you bought for Rs 75,000 two-and-a-half years ago is now available for less than Rs 50,000. And, if you sell it today, you would probably get not more than a third of its price.

The newer iPhone 15 has a faster processor, better camera, and there is a new iPhone 16 on the way which would be even better.

Similarly, when it comes to electric passenger cars, and even two wheelers for that matter, everything could change rapidly. The type of battery chemistry could change with change in the prices of different lithium-ion batteries. The type of motor could also change with innovation in magnets and drive technology while battery management software and vehicle software could witness dramatic changes. In fact, many electric vehicles are running on automotive-grade Snapdragon processors, which are very similar to those inside smartphones. And you know how fast smartphone processors evolve. The rate of change is so rapid that a car can become obsolete in just six months of purchase.

And that is not the case with an internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicle, because here the technology is relatively stable. Yes, there are still improvements being made in ICE technology – for example the new Z-series engine in the new fourth-generation Maruti Swift is better in terms of performance and efficiency than the old K-series engine that powered the older variant of the car. But the K-series engine lasted over 15 years with minor modifications in a host of Maruti Suzuki vehicles. If you own an ICE vehicle, you would know that your car will remain more or less the same for 30-36 months after its launch, before a facelift and a new generation variant is introduced every 6-7 years. You have seen it with the Honda City, the Hyundai Creta, and the Maruti Swift.

Minor cosmetic modifications could occur here and there annually like a special edition with a new paint job or a minor feature improvement. But the ICE car lifecycle is clearly defined and consumers are well aware of it. However, it is not the same in the case of EVs because the rapid technological advancement is catching the entire value chain off guard, from the manufacturer to the consumer.

And possibly it also requires us as consumers to get used to a different mindset – that our cars are like our mobile phones that can become obsolete quickly. But this will not be easy. I don’t know how many people can possibly treat their one to two-year-old vehicle as ‘old’. But then again, we have gotten used to rapidly changing fashion and phones, so why not cars?

Reference

https://theprint.in/opinion/ev-lifes...s/2236789/?amp


https://www.wired.com/story/evs-are-...e-in-one-year/

[Shresth_EV]

Originally Posted by ravradha

but some vehicles like the Kia EV6 GT Line from 2023 with less than 5,000 kilometers on the odometer could be bought for one-third of its on-road price.

Leave the article aside, first and foremost get me into contact with whoever is selling off their 75L EV6 GT for 25L

They may just have found a buyer

Now, a cursory check through some used-car websites in India did not show conclusive evidence of dramatic depreciation

Precisely, because the examples that the author goes on to give below doesn’t really apply here. The best selling EV, even in the facelift, only really improved the features to be on par with competition in same ICE vehicle price range.

The motor, range, battery, and most importantly charging speed are still same as the original one launched 5y ago.

Instead Tata is passing benefits of the improvements to new vehicles like punch and curvv. Until all the EVs on sale migrate to born EV platforms, this will continue.

Whereas, a similarly priced petrol or diesel car would have depreciated around 15 per cent in a year.

A BMW330i will depreciate just 15% in one year? That’s news to me. I was led to believe luxury cars depreciate much faster

WIRED article (Reference given below).

https://www.wired.com/story/evs-are-...e-in-one-year/

The example used by wired itself is Audi e Tron GT, a bonafide luxury car

These include the Audi e-Tron GT, which plummeted by 49 percent from £107,675 ($138,000) to £54,700 ($70,100)

I feel putting the numbers in vacuum may induce a different conclusion than by comparing side by side, with say, how much an Audi RS7 depreciates in the same period.

That would provide more reader context as to whether EV resale is bad due to them being luxury cars first, or by virtue of being EVs. One must not confuse the two.

Luxury cars irrespective of powertrain lose resale. While there may be some truth in (relatively) lower resale of EVs, the extent of depreciation which has been portrayed in the article is definitely not true.

It is in fact quite hard to find EVs listed on most online car sale platforms. No wonder there is “lack of conclusive evidence of dramatic depreciation” as noted by the author.

Either people aren’t selling at all, or whoever is selling, is doing so in some unfortunate emergency where they are ready to accept any price.

After all most EVs would be <5y old at this point. A person who bought one exclusively to save money may not even have broken even in that duration.

[anb]

Originally Posted by ravradha

I

EV vs. ICE vehicle Resale Values

In vehicles that come with both petrol and electric options, the electric variant actually depreciated faster than the petrol model. Now, a cursory check through some used-car websites in India did not show conclusive evidence of dramatic depreciation, but some vehicles like the Kia EV6 GT Line from 2023 with less than 5,000 kilometers on the odometer could be bought for one-third of its on-road price. Whereas, a similarly priced petrol or diesel car would have depreciated around 15 per cent in a year.

5000 km run Kia EV6 for one third of the price , for 25 lakhs !! I would be buying it right now if a used EV6 available for that price.

[ferrarirules]

Originally Posted by Shresth_EV

Leave the article aside, first and foremost get me into contact with whoever is selling off their 75L EV6 GT for 25L

They may just have found a buyer .

+1 to this, 25 lakhs for 5000 km run EV6 is a steal. I would really like the contact details. Until or unless the car is accidental or out of warranty, there is no reason for it to sell for 25 lakhs.

These articles are a propaganda being promoted by the ICE lobby.