[sgiitk]

When (and if) are we getting the real viable electric car, namely the Tesla? I can envisage going on a expressway, stopping for a meal, and recharging the car to say 80% in say 3/4 of an hour.

[ajitstreet]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

When (and if) are we getting the real viable electric car, namely the Tesla? I can envisage going on a expressway, stopping for a meal, and recharging the car to say 80% in say 3/4 of an hour.

Well, the news report says that Tesla is producing a 4 door affordable model --Tesla Model 3-- specifically designed for markets like India. Price will be Rs. 18-24 lakh. They will finalise the model in 2 years. But due to high import duty, it will not be viable to import them. They need to have a plant here. And to have a plant here, they need some policy clarity (translated to subsidy by govt.).

Hence, it seems, it will take, may be 5-10 years to see a cheap(est) Tesla on Indian road. Not anytime sooner.

Source: http://m.economictimes.com/industry/...w/45210985.cms

[Ketan T]

Government of Maharashtra has given a New Year gift to Mahindra. Union power minister Piyush Goyal announced that the Government of Maharashtra will not levy value added tax, road tax and registration charges on electric vehicles sold in the state.

Source: [url]http://m.timesofindia.com/city/chennai/Electric-cars-not-to-be-taxed-in-Maharashtra/articleshow/50422473.cms[url]

I think this should reduce the on road price by about 30,000 to 50,000 rupees.

Mods: If this post is not suitable for this thread, please move it to the appropriate thread. Thank you!

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by ajitstreet

Well, the news report says that Tesla is producing a 4 door affordable model --Tesla Model 3-- specifically designed for markets like India. Price will be Rs. 18-24 lakh. They will finalise the model in 2 years. But due to high import duty, it will not be viable to import them.

MH has taken the initiative by reducing state level taxation to zero (probably to help out M&M Reva) for EVs. Cut duties drastically on EVs.

[lucifer1881]

Originally Posted by Ketan T

Government of Maharashtra has given a New Year gift to Mahindra. Union power minister Piyush Goyal announced that the Government of Maharashtra will not levy value added tax, road tax and registration charges on electric vehicles sold in the state...

Why is this a gift to Mahindra? Did the government say that electric vehicles sold by other manufacturers will have to pay the aforementioned taxes? Yes, Mahindra is the only one selling electric vehicles in India. But what stopped other manufacturers from selling electric vehicles? Did government policy say that only Mahindra will be allowed to sell electric vehicles?

Instead of commenting on the merits or demerits of such a move we have this tendency to link it with crony capitalism. I could understand if you said it was a gift to the auto industry. But saying it is a gift to only one business house is simply missing the woods for the trees.

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by lucifer1881

Why is this a gift to Mahindra?

Instead of commenting on the merits or demerits of such a move we have this tendency to link it with crony capitalism. I could understand if you said it was a gift to the auto industry. But saying it is a gift to only one business house is simply missing the woods for the trees.

Crony capitalism did not even cross my mind. M&M is a MH based group and you must try and help the industry in the state. Mumbai and esp Pune can do with EVs. I hope my stand is clear now.

[lucifer1881]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

Crony capitalism did not even cross my mind. M&M is a MH based group and you must try and help the industry in the state. Mumbai and esp Pune can do with EVs. I hope my stand is clear now.

Sir, I quoted "Ketan T". My response was for his post. Not yours. Hope my stand is clear now.

[ajitstreet]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

Crony capitalism did not even cross my mind. M&M is a MH based group and you must try and help the industry in the state. Mumbai and esp Pune can do with EVs. I hope my stand is clear now.

This duty cut is a welcome step. I think all States, particularly Delhi, Haryana etc should take note of it and follow. Though it will Mahindra Reva for now, it will also help other manufacturers to bring their own electric vehicles. So a cynical view in this case is unwarranted.

[Ketan T]

Originally Posted by lucifer1881

Why is this a gift to Mahindra? Did the government say that electric vehicles sold by other manufacturers will have to pay the aforementioned taxes? Yes, Mahindra is the only one selling electric vehicles in India. But what stopped other manufacturers from selling electric vehicles? Did government policy say that only Mahindra will be allowed to sell electric vehicles?

Instead of commenting on the merits or demerits of such a move we have this tendency to link it with crony capitalism. I could understand if you said it was a gift to the auto industry. But saying it is a gift to only one business house is simply missing the woods for the trees.

I suggest you read the article that I have referred to. The venue where the Minister made the statement prompted me to call it a gift to Mahindra.

I know that Mahindra has taken a risk when they invested huge amounts in the EV R&D. I think that Mahindra deserves this gift for the risks that they have taken. I call it a gift to Mahindra as no other Automaker in India has a pure EV in market now. So as of now, they are the only ones who are going to benefit from the announcement.

Yes, of course, it is also a gift to the auto industry. It is up to the other auto majors to pull up their socks and bring out pure EVs.

I have made the reasoning for my statement clear. Lets end it at that. Lets not go OT over this.

Thanks!

[Rajeevraj]

GM Launches the new Chevy Bolt EV.

At CES on Jan 7th General Motors' CEO Mary Barra unveiled one of the most significant new cars in the company's history. It's called the Chevrolet Bolt, and when it goes on sale later this year it will be the first long-range battery electric vehicle that's truly affordable. In fact, GM says that after the $7500 IRS EV tax credit, the Bolt will cost under $30,000, making it cheaper than the average new-car price ($33,560 in 2015, according to Kelley Blue Book).

With an expected range of over 200 miles (~360 km), it is expected to satisfy the driving patterns of most people. In addition it can be charged in as little as half an hour.

As with the Chevrolet Volt (a plug-in hybrid EV), it has two driving modes: D and L. The second of those ups the amount of regenerative braking (something you can increase further with a paddle on the steering wheel), letting you drive the Bolt with a single pedal (similar to BMW's i3). And for the racers out there, there's even a sport button, although as with any car electric or conventional, expect a heavy right foot to cut into your range. It's no slowpoke, though—0 to 60mph takes less than seven seconds, and with most of the car's mass so low down, it corners well with little body roll.

Sources:

• Arstechnica
  
• Autoweek

[sgiitk]

The Chinese have a consortium developing the Faraday. I do not think GM can make a lightweight car with a decent range. I expect the Europeans to take the lead for offering competition to Tesla.

Mahindra have done a good job taking over the first India EV, but except for city commute it is not viable.

[Vigkey]

Friends, I see a lot of discussion regarding electric vehicles being heralded as the future of automotive world. 0 pollution, Go-Green are some key words used for marketing. Automotive pollution, depleting oil resources and ever increasing temperatures all seem to point in the same direction - Electric vehicles. Low cost of running, 0 noise, ease of operation - Wow!! Sounds perfect. Innovation in battery technology, Government subsidies and allowances for hybrid and electric vehicles - Science and government everyone seems to approve the theory - Electric vehicles are Green, Very Green. All looks and sounds great until this point. I too agree that electric vehicles do not emit any poisonous gases while it runs - they seem green. But are they really Green?

My question stems from a slightly higher level point of view. Let us come out of the automotive circle. Let us go one step up. And think, where the power comes from - the power used to charge these electric vehicles. Conventional cars use Petrol, Diesel, Natural gas or LPG as fuels to run. Electric vehicles use electricity - where does this electricity come from? How is this electricity produced? Any guesses? Check out the below diagram (Source: Wikipedia & CEA Govt of India)



Thermal power plants produce ~72% of the country's total power - ~60% from Coal and Lignite ~10% from Natural gas and the rest from Oil other sources. Around three quarters of our power comes from highly polluting sources.

Most of these thermal power stations run on old and outdated machines with much lesser efficiency compared to modern petrol and diesel engines that run our vehicles. Add to this a highly inefficient power transmission - average power loss is considered to be around 15%, however is bound to be higher in India - simply owing to the huge distances between the power station and Grid and Grid to our homes with 100s of transformers and stuff in between. Basically, more we consume - more will be the demand - more will be the production - more will be the pollution. Increase in electric cars will only result in pollution - Indirect one though. We will not see the exhaust gases coming out of the car, but much more would already have been emitted to the atmosphere in the process of getting us the power. This is my humble point of view.

Battery optimization for better range. Better motor technologies to improve the efficiency and hence resulting in even better range. Combine this with harnessing Solar power using high end solar cells in the car body. All might contribute to reduce a bit of indirect pollution - but by how much? I am not sure. Let me also add - For countries producing Green electricity from all renewable sources - Electric vehicles are a boon. But for India?

I do not proclaim myself to be a bigger visionary than the scientists or the government. However, my question is simple - All the hoopla around electric vehicles is for is 0 pollution - Who will account for all the indirect pollution it causes? How will electric vehicles help us improve our carbon footprint? Is this all a hype with no real benefits or even more danger?

Experts please pour in your thoughts.

[thoma]

This is a very valid point to discuss. I've also had some wild thoughts on this without getting any deeper, so would like to watch this space.

In the present scenario in India, I think that transmission and distribution losses for electric power also accounts to the non-viability of switching over completely to electric powered vehicles. But see the same graph of France, they use a lot of nuclear energy for generating electricity which is moreover clean, but still it's not renewable and that is another topic to discuss. And I'm wondering how long will these coal fields in India last?

[Jeeper1941]

This topic has popped up several times over the years here, and I'll say what I've said before: electric cars aren't "green". And electric cars aren't cars in the real sense of the word since they cannot take you where you want, when you want.

The issues that have been highlighted in the above posts pertain to electricity production. That argument aside, the cars themselves aren't "green".

Electric cars need to be light, which means they include a lot of high-performing metals. The lithium in the batteries, for example, is super light and conductive; that’s how you get a lot of energy without adding a lot of weight. Other, rare metals are present throughout the car, mostly in the magnets that are in everything from the headlights to the on-board electronics. These rare metals usually come from environmentally destructive mines. Rare metals only exist in tiny quantities and inconvenient places, so you have to move a lot of earth to get just a little bit, which is definitely not environmentally friendly.

For example; in the Jiangxi rare earth mine in China, rare earths amounted to 0.2 percent of what gets pulled out of the ground. The other 99.8 percent which is now contaminated with toxic chemicals is dumped back into the environment. (http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2011/1042/of2011-1042.pdf).

And how and where are the spent batteries going to be disposed of eventually? They can't be recycled.

Now with regards to producing power to charge the cars: solar, wind or hydroelectric power generation techniques can be used, but - are these methods really "green"? What goes into producing these solar panels and wind turbines?

"Fabricating solar panels requires caustic chemicals such as sodium hydroxide and hydrofluoric acid, and the process uses water as well as electricity, the production of which emits greenhouse gases. It also creates waste. These problems undercut solar's ability to fight climate change and reduce environmental toxins."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ility-ranking/

http://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/...n-as-you-think

http://www.worldwatch.org/node/5650

If the contribution from wind turbines and solar energy to global energy production is to rise from the current 400 TWh to 12,000 TWh in 2035 and 25,000 TWh in 2050, as projected by the World Wide Fund for Nature, about 3,200 million tonnes of steel, 310 million tonnes of aluminum and 40 million tonnes of copper will be required to build the latest generations of wind and solar facilities. This corresponds to a 5 to 18% annual increase in the global production of these metals for the next 40 years. We should realize, that the life-time of wind plants is just twenty years - so after twenty years we are supposed to produce most of the concrete and dig up the metals again. And 25,000 TWh is still just one sixth of the total world energy consumption- this is not how sustainable evolution is supposed to look like.

I've always been an advocate of Hydrogen. Hydrogen is truly green. It's abundant and even though we don't yet have the technology to make full use of it, it should be the focus of auto-manufacturers in the future. EVs are just not the way forward. The whole concept of charging a battery and using it to power a vehicle is flawed IMO.

http://phys.org/news/2014-09-hydroge...ald-cheap.html

[Vigkey]

Originally Posted by thoma

In the present scenario in India, I think that transmission and distribution losses for electric power also accounts to the non-viability of switching over completely to electric powered vehicles.

Yes. This is true. I have mentioned that as well in the opening post. The average transmission loss is ~15% and I am sure it will be more than that in a hot country like India. Higher temperature and longer distances account for bigger losses.
`

Originally Posted by thoma

But see the same graph of France, they use a lot of nuclear energy for generating electricity which is moreover clean

Frankly, I do not believe that nuclear energy is any clean compared to coal / gas / oil based ones. Piling up nuclear wastes are a huge threat to our planet and outer space. They being dumped in ocean and outer space is not a permanent solution IMHO.

Originally Posted by Jeeper1941

The issues that have been highlighted in the above posts pertain to electricity production. That argument aside, the cars themselves aren't "green".

Thanks for the deeper insight Jeeper!! I thought about these too, but did not think this will also have such a huge impact in totality.

Originally Posted by Jeeper1941

I've always been an advocate of Hydrogen. Hydrogen is truly green. It's abundant and even though we don't yet have the technology to make full use of it, it should be the focus of auto-manufacturers in the future. EVs are just not the way forward. The whole concept of charging a battery and using it to power a vehicle is flawed IMO.

Totally agree!! I too believe Hydrogen is the future fuel. Not only because it is abundantly available or there are cheap ways to manufacture it. The biggest plus is its waste / exhaust being water. Rather than focusing and rather wasting our energy on electric vehicles, channeling our time and energy on Hydrogen should be the way to go.

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