[FlankerFury]

First F-16 loss for the Ukrainian Air Force


The article says the loss was a result of pilot error while quoting an unknown US official. The loss of the pilot is a significant blow considering there's only a handful of combat qualified F-16 pilots.

https://www.twz.com/air/ukrainian-pi...irst-f-16-loss

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by FlankerFury

First F-16 loss for the Ukrainian Air Force


The article says the loss was a result of pilot error while quoting an unknown US official. The loss of the pilot is a significant blow considering there's only a handful of combat qualified F-16 pilots.

https://www.twz.com/air/ukrainian-pi...irst-f-16-loss

It might have been friendly fire by a Patriot missile as the incident took place during a Russian missile attack. Just like the Pakistani F-16 loss this will also be covered up. The bold text below explains why:

Oleshchuk directed scathing criticism at a lawmaker who is deputy head of the Ukrainian parliament’s defense committee for her claims that the F-16 was downed by a Patriot air defense system. Ukraine has received an unspecified number of the U.S.-made systems.

Mariana Bezuhla cited unnamed sources for her claim and demanded punishment for those responsible for the error.

Oleshchuk accused Bezuhla of defaming the air force and discrediting U.S. arms manufacturers and said that he hoped she would face legal consequences for her claims.

The air force did not directly deny that the F-16 was hit by a Patriot missile.

Source: https://apnews.com/article/russia-uk...e975d44427b9b#

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

Just like the Pakistani F-16 loss this will also be covered up.

Thank you Foxbat for holding up for the non-US Forces.

All,

The US has a long history of misinformation when it comes to US designed aircraft being shot down. We saw it in Korea, in Vietnam, in Iraq...Even the bloody Serbs knocked down a F-117 Nighthawk back in the 1990s using a Soviet era SAM the SA-3 {NATO name Goa}.

Link here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_F-117A_shootdown

Stealth is a grossly over rated word where aircraft and ships go. the only weapon system that is really stealth is the submarine.

[Aditya]

First F-16 loss for the Ukrainian Air Force - Posts moved to a new thread.

[skanchan95]

Very sad and unfortunate incident. RIP to the brave pilot Lt Col Mes.

Just like our own Spyder/Mi-17 friendly incident and many more before it, such incidents do happen in the middle of the chaos that war brings.

[itwasntme]

I thought the IFF would have explicitly identified it as a US / UKR aircraft to the Patriot missile battery?

[FlankerFury]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

It might have been friendly fire by a Patriot missile as the incident took place during a Russian missile attack.

How real is the possibility of Russian EW equipment interfering or spoofing IFF systems?

Originally Posted by itwasntme

I thought the IFF would have explicitly identified it as a US / UKR aircraft to the Patriot missile battery?

According to that warzone article, the F-16 was tasked with shooting down incoming Russian cruise missiles and UAVs. I guess during such chaos and possible enemy interference there wasn't much time to properly identify individual blips on the radar.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by FlankerFury

How real is the possibility of Russian EW equipment interfering or spoofing IFF systems?

Another possibility is that patriot missile was fired at incoming Russian cruise/ballistic missiles, but it locked on to F16 which was flying in the vicinity. The F16 was probably tasked with shooting down incoming Shahed drones.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by itwasntme

I thought the IFF would have explicitly identified it as a US / UKR aircraft to the Patriot missile battery?

In a chaotic air space over crowded with electromagnetic signals errors can happen and IFF systems, like all systems are never fool proof.

Originally Posted by FlankerFury

How real is the possibility of Russian EW equipment interfering or spoofing IFF systems?

Good question. My guess is that Russian EW systems can confuse NATO IFF systems and vice versa.

I really would be keen to learn more of how the armour of the Leopard 2 and other Western tanks is holding up against the 125mm gun of the T-90s and T-72s.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I really would be keen to learn more of how the armour of the Leopard 2 and other Western tanks is holding up against the 125mm gun of the T-90s and T-72s.

Tank to tank battles would be quite rare. Even if they happened, there will be no story or video out on Telegram or Twitter. That's because probability of a drone being in that area and capturing the events is low.

However, there is lots of video footage of Abrams tanks being taken out by lancet kamikaze drones. Also, Ukranians found out that Abrams weight (65 tons) is a problem in soft muddy terrain, especially after the snow melted. Probably explains why Russian MBTs have lighter weight (40 to 45 tons). And that's why there is no more clamour for Abrams tanks from the Ukranian side.

British Challenger 2 tanks were spotted in Kursk
https://news.sky.com/story/british-c...tands-13197260

[DIY410]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I really would be keen to learn more of how the armour of the Leopard 2 and other Western tanks is holding up against the 125mm gun of the T-90s and T-72s.

I did see a video last year of a T72B3 gunner or commander screen, showing a M2A2 Bradley being destroyed at more than 2km laser ranger finder distance with its 125mm gun.
In another video a T72B3 or T90M destroyed a M1 Abram with its ATGM shell.

One thing I notice is that in all of those thermal image of western tanks, its easy to differentiate them from a Russian T series tank. Since the western tanks like M1, Challenger, Leopard 2 are much larger

Now you see every western tank in Ukraine with added ERA tiles and Anti Drone cages.

Below unknown target being destroyed by a T90M tank, the tank laser designator shows the target distance at 6.8km. The 9M119 laser guided shell has a Wikipedia range of 5km, yet the target was destroyed at much further distance. So, either they have upgraded versions for the war or the Russians never revealed the true range of their domestic only non-export versions.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

Tank to tank battles would be quite rare. Even if they happened, there will be no story or video out on Telegram or Twitter. That's because probability of a drone being in that area and capturing the events is low.

However, there is lots of video footage of Abrams tanks being taken out by lancet kamikaze drones. Also, Ukranians found out that Abrams weight (65 tons) is a problem in soft muddy terrain, especially after the snow melted. Probably explains why Russian MBTs have lighter weight (40 to 45 tons). And that's why there is no more clamour for Abrams tanks from the Ukranian side.

British Challenger 2 tanks were spotted in Kursk
https://news.sky.com/story/british-c...tands-13197260

https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and...tion-9790.html

All 3 Western tanks - Abrams , Challenger & Leopard 2 will have mobility issues in the wet soil of Ukraine/the Russian steppe. They all weigh 64 to 67 tonnes depending on the quantity of applique (slap on) armour they carry. Russian tanks by design require less maintenance.

A tank has 3 key factors - armament, armour, mobility. The Russians always gave first place to the armament and led the world with being the first to field an 85mm (WW2, T-34 later marks), the 100mm (T-54), 115mm (T-62) and now the 125mm (T-72, T90). Where armour goes the West went with improved quality - composite layered armour, explosive reactive armour etc. The Russians went with first reducing the size of the tank & turret with an automatic loader thus reducing the total weight of armour needed and improve the quality of the armour. While the West went with mainly layered composite armour Russia went with a hybrid of composite and ERA.

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

British Challenger 2 tanks were spotted in Kursk
https://news.sky.com/story/british-c...tands-13197260

At least one of them in Kursk met its end at the receiving end of a Lancet Kamikaze drone. The explosion cause the turret to fly off, a common occurrence in Russian Tanks because the ammunition is stored deep inside the tank to keep the profile of the tank low.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnYcTWuhSEA

Interesting comment on the video:
Challenger 2 is the tank that inbodies disadvantages of both western and eastern tankbuilding schools. On one hand it big so it's easier to hit(like all western mbts), on the other hand it stores ammo inside tank so its cook-off more deadly to the crew(like all eastern mbts) and it has 4 crew members which means that instead of three people burning in agony it will have four.

The war seems to be escalating out of control with Western countries allowing their weapons to strike undisputed Russian mainland. I wonder what their reaction would be if Russia provided T-90s to invade a Western country ?

The F-16 loss is a huge PR disaster for Ukraine and its partners but in reality it would hardly make any difference in the war effort. 6 F-16s would have hardly made any difference, even those are very basic versions of the aircraft from the 1980s-1990s with little modernization. 80 are planned to be transferred but its highly unlikely Ukraine would have enough trained pilots to fly them by the time they come.

Looks like the crash is causing a disproportionately high reaction from the Government:

Ukraine’s Zelensky fires Air Force chief, days after fatal F-16 crash
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky fired his Air Force commander Mykola Oleshchuk on Friday, a day after the Air Force announced one of Ukraine’s top pilots had died when a US-made F-16 fighter jet crashed.

Zelensky said the command level of the Air Force needed to “strengthen,” but did not say whether his decision to sack Oleshchuk was related to the F-16 crash on Monday.

Source: https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/30/world...say/index.html

[ringsoftime]

I found it quite interesting that Kursk region is again a stage for a tank battle, out of the blue. The second world war battle was quite extreme. Now it gets a mix of Tanks, UAVs and fighter jets. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk

[catchjyoti]

If for nothing else, I hope India takes the learning of how drones have been used in this war. And augments its drone force. It would be too late to augment it in the middle of a war.