[mmxylorider]

Originally Posted by SidTheChamp

No one deserves such treatment in prison that too at advanced age. On humanitarian grounds, Naresh Goyal should be given bail so that he can be at better condition to live. He is not flight risk either. So why is not been given bail, beats me.
.

Not to mention, there is the furlough option on humanitarian ground which has a precedent too.

[binand]

Originally Posted by SidTheChamp

Let me ask what you prefer.

Naresh Goyal should remain imprisoned and continue to suffer more in harsh conditions of prison while his wife lies in deathbed . This may result in further deterioration and suffering.

I prefer Naresh Goyal to be treated exactly the same way thousands of other undertrials are treated in India, and not be given any extra privilege or consideration that is not available to those faceless ones.

[ex-innova-guy]

Originally Posted by SidTheChamp

Naresh Goyal should remain imprisoned and continue to suffer more in harsh conditions of prison while his wife lies in deathbed. This may result in further deterioration and suffering.

I am sorry but this logic is so flawed. As mentioned by a BHPian earlier there are several thousands who might face this. He hasn’t even spent a year yet and we already already see him exclaiming.

According to 436A of the Criminal Procedure Code – an under-trial is eligible for bail only when he/she has undergone half of the maximum imprisonment possible. I don’t exactly know what term he has to serve but going by the example of Rana Kapoor(7 years), he must serve behind bars accordingly until the Judge decides otherwise.

[Freespirit27]

Now he gets medical excuse! Old jungle saying, "When the going gets tough, the tough report sick"! And so do the ilks of NG, Lalu Yadavs and all the while the Mallyas' complain of poor jail conditions to avoid extradition. Laws are not for the rich and endowed, just for the poor or ignorants.
First they seek anticipatory bails, then regular bail, then end up having medical conditions, then relatives fall sick- rest assured all the while the children will be studying in best of schools or settled abroad and continuing to enjoy the fruits of their father's scams. It's a flawed system and yes as a regular Joe, it hurts to see it being manipulated!

[TKMCE]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

What TKCME is stating is correct. That TDS is due from the employee {recipient of the income} for the time salaries were paid. The employer is depositing the TDS on behalf of the employee under eyes of the law. They, the IT dept., were not collecting taxes on salary not paid but on salary already paid. Despite section 205 it would not be worth the while for a single employee to go fight the system - the cost, harassment and effort are not worth it - he would first have to prove that the TDS was indeed deducted. I had a similar situation but with reference to service tax {the predecessor of GST} - a rather large sum if I dare add. Employees like TKCME suffered immensely. I agree with his observation that other employers within aviation exploited the desperation of the Kingfisher employees.
.

When I decided that I was better off paying the demand of Income Tax department for the amount whiich Mallya deducted from my salary but never paid up, manty of my friends and relatives were making fun openly saying I was a fool and I should never have paid up. It is only now, a few years later when I came accross the above reply from V Narayan and also another similar response from Samurai that I am finally relieved that I was right in paying up. Thank you gentlemen!

I decided to post this now because yesterday I came accross an article in Times of India about the running around another tax payer had to do on a TDS issue. Worth reading although not directly related to Mallya or Goyal.

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world...ll/ar-BB1hAwoF

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by TKMCE

When I decided that I was better off paying the demand of Income Tax department for the amount whiich Mallya deducted from my salary but never paid up, manty of my friends and relatives were making fun openly saying I was a fool and I should never have paid up. It is only now, a few years later when I came accross the above reply from V Narayan and also another similar response from Samurai that I am finally relieved that I was right in paying up. Thank you gentlemen!

I decided to post this now because yesterday I came accross an article in Times of India about the running around another tax payer had to do on a TDS issue. Worth reading although not directly related to Mallya or Goyal.

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world...ll/ar-BB1hAwoF

Well said and well done. Taxmen across the centuries have been relentless creatures and today's faceless system has made things worse because now they simply do not accept even their own errors let alone typos of your employer! Mallya owed my business a very tidy sum of money on which we had to pay service tax {this was well before the GST days} even though the dues were never paid. So on one hand the judicial system makes it nigh impossible to collect your dues {things have improved since then} and the Govt says pay your taxes regardless. And we as a nation win prizes for 'ease of doing business'!!!

[Hayek]

The sad thing is that thanks to our terrible legal system, we are happy to accept that a man who has not been convicted of any crime is forced to spend years in jail.

Perhaps Mr Goyal is guilty of misappropriating funds. But like every other undertrial, he has the right to a presumption of innocence. And it is for the State to prove the charges against him beyond reasonable doubt, have him convicted and then jail him. The State is not capable of doing that and instead keeps him in jail as an undertrial for months or years together. That is ridiculous. The fact that 50% of all prisoners are undertrials makes it even worse. Frankly, if we claim to be a democracy with rule of law, almost all undertrials should be freed with appropriate bail and conditions such as the need to report once a week at a police station.

The current system is open to abuse. Industrialist A whom the government (and I am not referring to this government but any government) is fond of is not even charged for certain actions; Industrialist B gets charged and released on bail for similar actions; and Industrialist C gets jailed for years together without bail without being convicted. And we get surprised that bribery is not commonplace in our country.

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by Hayek

The sad thing is that thanks to our terrible legal system, we are happy to accept that a man who has not been convicted of any crime is forced to spend years in jail.

.

Our entire legal system is a farce and has only been devised to act against the interests of people. Considering all these bureaucrats, judges etc are paid by tax payer money, they are essentially servants to the people. Instead it is the other way around.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

So on one hand the judicial system makes it nigh impossible to collect your dues {things have improved since then} and the Govt says pay your taxes regardless. And we as a nation win prizes for 'ease of doing business'!!!

If you say things have improved, makes me dread how bad it was before now.

Once we got a big judgement against a willfully defaulting customer in the MSME court. But we haven't been able to collect it even after two years. And we are continuously paying the lawyer to get a court to enforce the judgement. We even had to pay the arbitrator fee upfront to recommend the judgement.

It gets worse.

As per section 15 of the MSMED Act, due date for payment of MSME vendors are as under:

• Payment shall be made within 15 days of the invoice (Date of delivery or goods or completion of service) where there are no agreed payment terms.
• Where the payment terms are agreed for a period of less than 45 days, then the vendor payment shall be made as per the agreed terms.
• Where the payment term is 45 days or beyond 45 days, the payment shall be made by 45 days.

Accordingly, if any MSME dues are outstanding as on 31-03-2024 beyond the due dates specified above, such expense shall be disallowed while computing the Income tax liability of the Company/entity.

That means if you don't pay the vendor's invoice in 45 days, you can't claim it as expense and must pay income tax on the amount.

Now, anyone with a logical brain would assume that the vendor doesn't have pay income tax on the invoice for which he didn't get paid. NOOOOO... The vendor is still liable to pay income tax on the unpaid invoice. Not to forget the GST he charged on the same invoice. Double whammy!

In other words, if the invoice goes unpaid over 45 days, both customer and vendor pays income tax on the same invoice. Government gets to tax it twice... Actually, thrice if you count the GST. All this when no payment was made between the customer and vendors.

Government actually makes money out of the misery of vendors while not lifting a finger to help. Please don't believe the MSME hype. That threat only works with customers who have some scruples and fear of the law.

[ashis89]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Well said and well done. Taxmen across the centuries have been relentless creatures and today's faceless system has made things worse because now they simply do not accept even their own errors let alone typos of your employer! Mallya owed my business a very tidy sum of money on which we had to pay service tax {this was well before the GST days} even though the dues were never paid. So on one hand the judicial system makes it nigh impossible to collect your dues {things have improved since then} and the Govt says pay your taxes regardless. And we as a nation win prizes for 'ease of doing business'!!!

Similar but different issue and experience. On two different occasions when buyers of real estate properties forgot to deposit TCS, they were served the demand notice for the amount. In both the cases, it was the ignorance of the buyers as they failed to deduct the 1% amount and paid the full 100% to the seller. Shouldn’t the seller been liable here since it was their “income” and they owed the tax? But IT dept said it was to be collected at source and hence the source/payee is liable. How is this different from the Mallaya case?

[binand]

Originally Posted by Neil Roy

In legal terms, Naresh Goyal cannot be inside a prison till he is condemned guilty by the court of law. That is in our constitution.

Would you mind mentioning where in our constitution is this specified?

[itwasntme]

Originally Posted by ashis89

On two different occasions when buyers of real estate properties forgot to deposit TCS, they were served the demand notice for the amount. In both the cases, it was the ignorance of the buyers as they failed to deduct the 1% amount and paid the full 100% to the seller. Shouldn’t the seller been liable here since it was their “income” and they owed the tax? But IT dept said it was to be collected at source and hence the source/payee is liable.

Not getting into the Mallya case but this is the very essence of TCS whereby the IT department ensures that a seller is just as vested in the transaction as a buyer by shifting the 1% tax onus to the former. In many cases in real estate transactions the consideration is significantly understated but the fact would come to light only when the buyer would file their returns for that AY.

In the current regime, the seller has to deposit the 1% TCS within 7/15 days of deducting the same, and the entire process is online with every detail being additionally recorded on the registered Sale Deed for posterity. I feel it is safer this way than to be embroiled in the buyer's IT mess later, when they file returns or gets pulled up for scrutiny.

In any case, ignorance of the law is no excuse in my humble opinion. If I recollect correctly, this section has been in force since 2013.

[ashis89]

Originally Posted by itwasntme

In any case, ignorance of the law is no excuse in my humble opinion. If I recollect correctly, this section has been in force since 2013.

Agreed and not challenging that at all. I was drawing a parallel between an employer not depositing the TDS and a buyer not depositing the TDS. In case of the former, the employee/recipient is penalised while in the latter case, the payer is penalised.

[bblost]

Interim Bail for 2 months.

https://www.dnaindia.com/india/repor...g-case-3088254

[Ays7]

He got Interim bail for cancer treatment and to take care of his ailing wife. Unfortunately his wife passed away yesterday. A tragic end, but atleast Goyal got to be with his wife while she breathed her last.

Goyal is privileged to be able to afford a battery of very expensive lawyers who managed to get him out on Interim bail, else under the PMLA law as it stands today, bail is almost impossible unless you are an influential person.