[GTX+]

Originally Posted by karthikg87

It looks like Naresh Goyal's underworld connections came home to roost. More details at https://www.outlookindia.com/magazin...ibrahim/297557.

If these reports are true and look to be then I can only wish his wishes do become true in the end.

NG did not only benefit from his ties with dons, but had full support from the top leaders in the ruling govt. He was bound to flourish and have his way.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by GTX+

NG did not only benefit from his ties with dons, but had full support from the top leaders in the ruling govt. He was bound to flourish and have his way.

Airline tycoons always used their political connections for their own benefits/survival and stifling competition. These days one Indian airline is only surviving because the MD/CEO uses his political connections and influence /supress litigations by aircraft and engine lessors and bypass safety regulations. Had it not been for that, that airline would have gone down much before Go Air did. Needless to say who that is.

[fordday]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

Airline tycoons always used their political connections for their own benefits/survival and stifling competition.

Needless to say who that is.

to add some 'spice' to this thread he was the one who coined the famous line "ab ki baar Modi sarkar".
And then he extracted his pound of flesh by using the govt agencies to buy that airline cheap from the promoters. Rest is history.

[HereticHermit]

Originally Posted by Neil Roy

I really don't mean to come off as arrogant or obnoxious but we as a forum share our experience and knowledge which benefit others and I'm compelled to share my views....quite strongly. Let's take a case study of the average builder or real estate promoter in India. Business model is very simple. Buy land, build house, sell house and make profit. In this, for an example sake, let me highlight the hurdles in buying land alone.
Buy Land - There are various verticals here but I'll highlight the important ones. Identifying the land parcel and completing due diligence. This itself involves the revenue department, the tahsildars, the registration office for a clear title. Assuming that "the uncle of the father of the first legal heir is missing for more than 3 decades or so", there is enough grounds to say that the sale or registration is illegal. To create or ignore such documental anomalies the builder has to grease various palms and for this he has to pay in cash or gold. If the land is near a waterway or a coastal belt, he has to get the clearances from environmental departments, pollution departments etc. If the land was an agricultural land, he has to convert it to non agricultural purposes and for that he has to grease more palms. Nowadays, for a single high rise complex to come up, a builder has to buy land parcels from various sellers and create a contiguous boundary. Each seller will have his own demands for payment which the builder has to indulge. All this may have to be paid in black and hence any business house will have to cut corners and that is not driven by greed alone. We all like to live in fancy apartments and good views but never ever want to find out how the builder or promoter is able to make the magic happen and to make statements that "Managing reckless greed should not be confused with honest intent to prosper" is in itself quite utopian. In fact, even the most reputed projects, if scrutinized with an intent to find fault will fail. This brings us to the context of Naresh Goyal.
The govt and/or the ED is going out of it's way to scrutinise Naresh Goyal with the intent to prove him guilty. Whether he is guilty or not is for the judiciary to decide. But here in India, the ED has draconian and unconstitutional powers to keep him behind bars till his death or their convenience. Such actions are being done selectively and with the intent to intimidate. I repeat again. If the ED is going to apply the same yardstick to all the billionaires in India( Especially the ones who became billionaires in the last decade or so) will they be inside or outside?
[b]Our interpretation of the law is based on what we see in movies.[B/] I'm pretty sure that the advocates and lawyers( Yes, there is a difference between an advocate and a lawyer) in our group will be laughing at our legally ignorant statements. In legal terms, Naresh Goyal cannot be inside a prison till he is condemned guilty by the court of law. That is in our constitution. In the US, if you shoot someone in self defense, you wont even be inside a jail that night till you're charged and deemed a flight risk. We have the same constitutional right here in India, but show me one person who is out on bail immediately.
I'm sorry if this sounds aggressive, but I'm really frustrated in the way in which law is selectively implemented and used as a weapon instead of a shield. My heart goes out the the millions of people in jail in India just because they don't even know their rights and the powers that be are waiting for their bribe to "implement the law". Naresh Goyal incident is just bringing this fallacy to the fore.

I am not dissuading you from having a strong opinion. Your frustration is understandably quite palpable but really it is all over the place; generally addressing national ailment and not predicament of an individual who have erred, willfully. To bring back the context about why he is suffering I quote fellow bhpian.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I won't put down in the public domain what I know about the matter and the man.
Having said the above two points it is my educated belief that the Govt is absolutely in the right on this one and Naresh Goyal deserves to be in the dock - age and health notwithstanding. I am very strongly inclined to believe the Govt's charge that funds were siphoned from the company by the quintal not just once but as a routine over 20 years. These charges are IMHO the tip of the iceberg. Within the industry talk on this has been ripe for 20 years and there is rarely smoke without a fire. ……….

Since you raised a generic example about some developer trying to develop a land, is entirely misplaced in present context, and least reflective of NG’s present status but I will attempt to answer such that you stop placing misaligned sympathy.

First, if a business feels that it is not possible to make headway without resorting to corruption and still go ahead with execution then it is nothing more than poor planning or willful acceptance to future hurdles. Needless to say, no thought was paid to consequence management. Secondly even if ‘land buying’ example is followed as doom and gloom example, no one prompted or lured the developer to cut corner or have poor business plan/decisions.

I do understand that it is easy to claim sainthood and I agree with justification of ‘cutting corners’ as an individual whose kids have gone without home food for 4 days since I failed to ‘procure’ an LPG gas cylinder from black market. I don’t have staying power to hold satyagraha or fast onto death against corrupt gas dealer or petroleum minister. So I did cut a corner there and bowed to pressure for sake of subsistence. But business houses cannot be absolved on same grounds since they do have deeper pockets to fight back and resist. Sustenance is difficult but not impossible. That is why they can be put under scanner, and rightfully so.

To come back to your theory of, if you are business, you are doomed unless you act like NG and NG is just a scapegoat of SYSTEM. I really don’t feel like blowing my trumpet but your ‘land buying example’ brought me a smile because your lack of understanding to subject matter was obvious in an effusive way. I feel I can broadly represent the ‘honest business’ and say with certainly that if I know my board will support me in hard times and my employee will support my cost cutting drives by pledging to not use toilet paper or not run to HR for 1 tea less, I will not play puppet to Govt babus and cut-man. It is not my personal work but working in a corporate, just like any business I buy, hold, manage, and administer a land bank nearly worth 400+ Cr without paying a penny. As an administrator I feel duty bound to stakeholder(s) unlike NG who don’t give a toss. I get paid fairly for my services and BoD or my MD never put me in dock as non-performer despite giving me a KRA equivalent of milking an Ox. Thus empowered and encouraged, I manage this small empire of land business with just 4 juniors reporting to me whom I nurture on same comfort I get from my employer. I don’t sit in swanky office because even my MD doesn’t and my junior staff even less so but everyone is sure, we are going to live a tension free life.

So, the point I was trying to make was, that, as a business head one is always a captain and is responsible to steer toward either direction. That said, it is not always possible for an honest junior to work for a dishonest employer because he cannot fend for himself, but he/she should continue to look for opportunities and desert the likes of NG as first opportunity. As a financially unstable individual, for whom I work, the choice is still MINE. Temptation to ‘earn’ as employee or greed to ‘make money’ as a business head are no different from each other. That’s all I have tried to convey to your agitated mind. This is hardly a place, and I will not name the organization but I do live these values everyday without getting mentally disrupted. It is the same value system that empowers me to turn down a role of mentor to a young MD at 4 times of my present salary, for I don’t really see my guidance making any difference to him if he is blowing up 1 caror of stakeholder’s money in gambling and pubs every time he goes partying. Let him squander his goodwill for ultimate destination of jail just like his grandfather and then father did. I do love money and 4 times my present salary is big draw but by refusing to be part of this charade, I think I am doing my bit for society, which may having positive cascading effect in some way.

Nothing is going to be a catalyst of speedy change or alter the outcome in these complex modern times in a manner that appear radical or like a military coup. Best place to start is, first step and then one step at a time. Stick your neck out for whatever you can represent and stop worrying about entire system. That’s a good start.

On a lighter note, please stop interpreting the law based on what you see in movies if law in real life is blind, then reel life law is blindingly unreal. If you were to be a judge, I can tell you it would be very easy to play with your mind And no, lawyer and advocate are not different from each other!! Please stop placing so much reliance on the Internet Open University.

[ajmat]

Note from Moderator

Please avoid this topic turning into a Political Debate

[RMN]

The opening post made me sympathize with Goyal. The more I read about him, the lesser my sympathy got. He clearly is a criminal.

[TKMCE]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I won't put down in the public domain what I know about the matter and the man.

It is less easy to understand the pain inflicted on thousands upon thousands of unpaid employees, vendors and their families etc who starved and faced bankruptcy due to his money laundering activities - let's spare a thought for those faceless souls too. At least in my mind there is no sympathy for Naresh Goyal or Vijay Mallya for that matter.

I am one of those employees of one of the two employers being discussed here. I am owed a few lakhs in salary arrears and to add insult to injury had to pay another couple of lakhs to IT department after I got a demand notice that the tax which was deducted from me as TDS for some period was never paid to the government. My only option I was told if I don't want to pay up was to fight legally and I figured that it was cheaper to pay up - so I did. By that time, I had a stable income.

I can still never forget the day during those times when my young son wanted his first bicycle, and we were literally at the last of our savings and not knowing what to do - I was not being paid for months then and our savings were steadily being eaten up by the loan repayments. We literally scraped our last remaining cash to get him his bicycle- my son's excitement when he got his dream possession - I still cannot forget that scene - that made up for all the hardships.

You can try to hide your financial difficulties from your little one. But can you stop your neighbors and others from talking? I still remember the shock when my son then barely 6 asked me one fine day - "Dad are you not getting your salary" and when I said yes I am, so as not to worry him, he told me PLEASE DONT LIE. A few of his schoolmates' parents had clearly briefed their kids about their friend's family situation. Especially in Kerala some people are happiest when they see others suffering!

If you have not gone through the pain the employees of people like Mallya or Goyal have gone through, you may of course feel you have to sympathize with sob stories of these tycoons. And less said the better about how most other employers treated these staff of Mallya and Goyal when they were desperate to get jobs elsewhere. Except Pilots and some Aircraft Engineers who were still in demand, most others were treated like dirt by these so called HR professionals of competitors. Highly qualified professionally competent staff were offered 1/4th or 1/5th of their current salaries as people were desperate as money was running out.

I got lucky after many months of searching because I finally found an employer who had some principles not to fleece me and take advantage of my desperation and gave me a decent salary. Not surprisingly that employer was not from India!

[m8002?]

It is only right that the law has caught up with him. Even during the hay days of Jet, there were rumors about his link with the underworld and questions on funding. He is just paying for all his past actions. Also remember, he was arrested in the airport ( or in the runway?) when he was trying to flee the country. NG was just not as lucky as Mallya, Modi(s), Choksi and others who are well settled abroad. How I wish those guys are also with him in the stands today.


Having said that, jails should have decent medical support for all inmates irrespective of the history of the person. That I think is a top for another thread.

[bmw_lover]

Originally Posted by TKMCE

If you have not gone through the pain the employees of people like Mallya or Goyal have gone through, you may of course feel you have to sympathize with sob stories of these tycoons.

Also not to forget that Naresh Goyal was caught from the airport when he was trying to escape from country and the judicial process just like VM and NM.

[lazy]

The criminal must pay his dues, his own age, own illness, wife's illness, daughter's illness notwithstanding.

When one takes a path of crime, they are implicitly agreeing to pay the price of that choice when the time comes - why then cry, tell sob stories, gain sympathy?

With his ill gotten wealth he indeed lived a fabulously luxurious life for so many decades - a few years of pain is nothing.

Calling such people (vijay mallya, naresh goyal etc) entrepreneurs is an insult to the real entrepreneurs - these are con men and outright criminals who should be skinned alive.

regards
lazy

[RollinWheels]

Originally Posted by TKMCE

Especially in Kerala some people are happiest when they see others suffering!

I relate so much to this. The pleasure some take on others misfortune is truly despicable.

[IamNikhil]

How easy it is for business tycoons to shed crocodile tears post a fall-from-grace! Mr. Goyal and his cronies have indulged in siphoning-off money from the business, systematically over two decades.

Why should the employer get the benefit of doubt, if he leaves scores of employees in the lurch? Personally know some employees of Jet Airways (including 2 of my very close family members) who are running pillar-to-post just to get their dues cleared since many years now; some are still in search of a worthy job.

Be it Goyal, or Mallya, the government must not fall prey to their theatrics and move ahead with the investigation/punitive action in full steam. One just cannot be allowed to play with the lives and future of lakhs of helpless employees and their families in such criminal fashion.

[Ays7]

It is obvious that this issue has evoked so many strong emotions, and it is only natural. My intention was never to comment on the guilt of Naresh Goyal, but lot of people have made up their minds.

Anyways, the backbone of any judicial process is that we always start off with "Every person is presumed to be innocent till proven guilty." However, that is very hard to determine in practice, and this discussion has been a stellar example of that, where educated people, presumably from all walks of life have strong opinions and conclusion about his guilt, even before courts have pronounced the same. A huge part of those opinions come from lost faith in our over worked and over burdened judiciary and that is completely understandable, if not a iittle disturbing from the point of view of being a practitioner in the field of law.

The update is that the Court has allowed Goyal temporary and partial relief in the form of allowing him to visit his wife every Saturday as well as consult Private team of doctors on that day. Here is the link to the issue:

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...2.cms?from=mdr


On a completely different not, I spoke earlier about almost all Bails in PMLA Act at the moment are in nature of Medical Bails or Interim Medical Bails. This one is classic example.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india...950658194.html


This fellow is a politician of Maharastra and has switched recently to ruling disposition. No comments on whether that was a factor in him being granted bail. But yes, even among rich, there is always first among equals.

[PearlJam]

Originally Posted by Ays7

Anyways, the backbone of any judicial process is that we always start off with "Every person is presumed to be innocent till proven guilty." However, that is very hard to determine in practice, and this discussion has been a stellar example of that, where educated people, presumably from all walks of life have strong opinions and conclusion about his guilt, even before courts have pronounced the same.

As a lawyer, definitely your professional comments cannot be disputed, so no disagreements here.

However, from the common layman's point of view, sometimes the evidence is so overwhelming, and the proofs are so absolute, that there's extremely little doubt about the guilt. For example, 26/11 - lots of videos captured by different people, lots of eye witnesses, conclusive forensics, etc. At least from what people read in the media (which again may be biased, but that's a separate topic - where do we draw the line).

So when due processes of law have to be followed (rightfully so), and it takes years (as you said), then people get extremely impatient as to why it's taking such a long time to pronounce the verdict, especially when things look so clear to them. The time gap between the "innocent till proven guilty", and the verdict - gives the accused a very long rope of flaunting an "innocent" tag, trying to gain sympathy in the interim, etc. I think that's the main issue here.

In this specific case, I'm not familiar and don't have an opinion myself - but many eminent members here who are intimately familiar with the industry, have given their opinions, for whom it looks like the guilt is conclusive (just like 26/11). So I don't think we can assume politics every time, but just knowledgeable opinions from close quarters.

[airguitar]

I have zero sympathies for business tycoons (and I'm not specifically talking about any particular case here). They are in a high-risk, high-reward(or high-loss) setup and they know it all. My personal experience is that a good majority of these fellows act absolutely boorishly when they wield power. They will try everything - connection, influence, number torturing, soft-lying, hard-lying, inducements - everything that they tell their own employees not to do. Look at the number of tycoons misusing personal data of their users without obvious disclosures and routinely pulled up by governments and how these tycoons respond to grave questions in silly ways.

While I try to be patriotic wrt who I purchase products or services from, I will never support anyone that lacks basic ethics. Businessmen create jobs yes, but they also receive a fair share of tax benefits and waivers ( I don't have the right word TBH ) as companies vis-a-vis salaried people. They have better legal support and they know the loopholes, none of which most common people possess. There was a case where I had to get a refund of x lakhs from a company and they made me run around for months before I got back my dues. Their excuse was that they were not doing well financially to refund my due ( a salaried person denied his due by a company that deals in hundreds of crores!)

Separately, while big conglomerates are not saints, some startup "tycoons" have taken the lack of ethics and fibbing to new levels.

Let the law take it's course!