[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by AirbusCapt

The flying coffin is a huge misnomer, mainly due to typical press sensationalism and lack of knowledge. The problem we had in the IAF until recently was the lack of an intermediate jet trainer.

Another factor was the purchase of low quality spares from Eastern Europe after the breakup of the Soviet Union. Also if you fly a 30+ year old airplane something will eventually fail like any other machine.

[VijayAnand1]

What a sensation. A wonderful thread along with fitting diacritical of pilots and enthusiasts alike. Being a fan of aviation and avionics, getting to know the meaner and better of this long known "Toofan" of India, sincerely overwhelms me. I don't know why, there was this merriment of tears sensation till I read every single comment, only to know why this was a feeling for everybody. Never before have I read such a small yet powerful thread that enticed such emotions. Guess, MiG-21s isn't India-spec anymore, it's in every Indian whether he knows or not.

It's time you pave the way and it's time you cool off your back-burn and your feeble old frame, for you've done enough yet still will do more in our memories.

Farewell friend!

Cheers!
VJ

[itwasntme]

Are these still stationed at Srinagar? Pretty sure I saw one in a bunker hangar bang opposite the civilian terminal at Runway 13/31.

No pictures of course as it’s not allowed.

[fhdowntheline]

Originally Posted by AirbusCapt

The flying coffin is a huge misnomer, mainly due to typical press sensationalism and lack of knowledge. The problem we had in the IAF until recently was the lack of an intermediate jet trainer. Trainees would graduate directly from a turbo/piston prop to a rocket with small wings. The reaction times couldnt cope. Also the mig21 is not really aerodynamic as such. You chop the power and you will stall into the ground like a falling leaf. The glide to land techniques that we all pilots practice is out of the window with such a machine.
The approach and landing speeds are extremely high, if i recollect the landing speed is about 340kmph, much higher than a a320 speed of 250kmph.

This coupled with really small flight times, low fuel capacities, lack of fly by wire and all the helpful computers and mach 2 plus speeds meant that a mig21 pilot had to gain proficiency rapidly in order to fly safely.
Its like this..

I think the Lockheed F104 Starfighter (incidentally flown by PAF) , same vintage, was also of a similar nature. Extremely short wingspan, super fast but difficult to master.

[FLYBOYSID]

Originally Posted by AirbusCapt

The flying coffin is a huge misnomer, mainly due to typical press sensationalism and lack of knowledge. ……..If all that you drive are normal everyday cars and i put you into a porche 911 turbo and let you off on a winding ghat road, we all know what may happen.

Totally agree with you. The MiG-21 definitely requires a higher degree of skill, reflexes and Spare Mental Capacity to fly it like you own it. Definitely not for the faint hearted or those with slower processors. Due to lack of better trainer ac in earlier days, it was a quantum jump for rookie pilots from basic, forgiving and relatively slow platforms to MiG-21s. No simulators meant training in actual flight. If I recollect correctly you were expected to go solo in your eighth sortie. Training philosophy did not grant too many chances to those who could not keep up. All of us who have flown the aircraft have definitely scared ourselves at some point or the other at various levels of experience. The aircraft never knows or cares if you are a rookie or an ace. It just sticks to the laws of physics.

The Bison with its better avionics did help reduce the cockpit workload for the pilots as far as basic piloting goes. Aircraft today are definitely more advanced and take away the need for basic piloting calculations to a great extent. Advanced avionics, engines and weapons also make them potent platforms. So it’s a win-win for all. As the last of the Mig-21s start to wind down into the history, an era of aviation with brilliant engineering from cold war days will set. The hues of the brilliance will continue to inspire engineers and pilots alike forever.

A salute to all the brave hearts who ever operated or maintained this mean machine. 🫡

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

I think the Lockheed F104 Starfighter (incidentally flown by PAF) , same vintage, was also of a similar nature. Extremely short wingspan, super fast but difficult to master.

Correct! India purchased MiG 21 in response to US supply of 2 squadrons of F104s to Pakistan. The western world had raised eyebrows when India decided to go in for the MiG 21 as all previous combat aircraft purchased/used by the IAF had been of western origin even though India had started operating non-combat Soviet aircraft like An 12 and Mi4 already. Attempts were made to persuade India not to go ahead with the MiG deal even after initial supplies had already been made. This was done by offering India planes like the British Lightning and the American F5 and F6.

Like the MiG 21, the F104 was also shaped like a dart and was an unforgiving aircraft to fly. It had earned the sobriquet of widow-maker in West Germany where, by the end of its service in Luftwaffe, 292 F-104s had been lost or written off and 120 pilots had been killed in accidents! There were also allegations of payment of bribe by Lokheed to the German Defence Minister Franz Strauss. One of the pilots to die in an F104 crash was in fact the son of a former German Defence Minister!

Lockheed itself had previous experience in designing high performance supersonic fighters…… Much of this previous knowledge boiled down to the thin, stubby wings of the Starfighter. A wing such as this solved the two main problems of pressure shifts at transonic speeds, which caused massive instability and adverse drag divergence at high Mach numbers. The most radical feature of the Starfighter, its wings, was thus formed by a concept that had evolved from several previous projects and was finally incarnated on Starfighter; it was a technological leapfrog. Starfighter’s wing had a thickness ratio of 3.36% and a leading edge of 0.00046mm (almost sharp enough to serve as a knife.) The technology required to do this was insurmountable to any company but Lockheed, who even then had to employ cutting edge techniques such as chemical milling and zero draft forging to make the aircraft production viable. Another technical characteristic of note in Starfighter is the long, high tail. The problem of “pitch up”, i.e. the tendency of an aircraft to rise at the nose when accelerating, was one that had been almost insoluble until October 1953 when the final answer was the creation of a one slab, irreversible tail with an Automatic Pitch Control (ACP) system to compensate for this tendency.

Source: http://www.916-starfighter.de/F-104_...oftheF-104.pdf

Here are some interesting tidbits about the western world's responses to Indian purchase of MiG 21 followed by a picture of F104:

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by directinjection

Correct! India purchased MiG 21 in response to US supply of 2 squadrons of F104s to Pakistan. The western world had raised eyebrows when India decided to go in for the MiG 21 as all previous combat aircraft purchased/used by the IAF had been of western origin even though India had started operating non-combat Soviet aircraft like An 12 and Mi4 already.

It paid out in the end as IAF Mig-21s shot down between 3 to 5 PAF F-104s for 0 losses in the 1971 war.


1971 MiG-21 shoots down a F-104 Starfighter near Jamnagar
This painting of Flt Lt B B Soni in MiG-21FL (C-750), shooting down a PAF F-104 Starfighter was commissioned by Vayu Aerospace Review.

A digital re-enactment of one of this engagement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVQF2pbP0MQ

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by directinjection

Correct! India purchased MiG 21 in response to US supply of 2 squadrons of F104s to Pakistan. The western world had raised eyebrows when India decided to go in for the MiG 21 as all previous combat aircraft purchased/used by the IAF had been of western origin even though India had started operating non-combat Soviet aircraft like An 12 and Mi4 already. Attempts were made to persuade India not to go ahead with the MiG deal even after initial supplies had already been made. This was done by offering India planes like the British Lightning and the American F5 and F6.

Thank you for sharing these historical pieces. Thank God we did not go for the Starfighter which at the time was being positioned as America's top gun and foisted on its NATO allies to their remorse.

Originally Posted by Foxbat

It paid out in the end as IAF Mig-21s shot down between 3 to 5 PAF F-104s for 0 losses in the 1971 war.
1971 MiG-21 shoots down a F-104 Starfighter near Jamnagar
This painting of Flt Lt B B Soni in MiG-21FL (C-750), shooting down a PAF F-104 Starfighter was commissioned by Vayu Aerospace Review.

A digital re-enactment of one of this engagement:

Foxbat, Thank you for sharing this. I was thinking of narrating the MiG-21 kills and you have done that already with this video :-) I read somewhere that Middlecoats daughter (now in her late 50s early 60s) had a video call with B.B. Soni which helped heal her wounds, I read.

All,

Starfighter vs MiG-21 vs Mirage III vs Lightning - the whole story of every aircraft is the wing. Followed by the engine - power loading and fuel consumption. Followed by the fuselage - drag, radar cross section, volume inside to fit what is needed - avionics, guns, hardpoints, cockpit workload. Looking at the wings of these 4 tells the whole story.

The 1950s was an era of rapid change in aviation knowhow, speeds, engine technology etc. There was a lot of confusion on what sort of fighter was needed for the next 30 years. Air Force leaders thought fighters would zoom around at Mach 2.0, others thought missiles would make manned machines obsolete, others felt guns were not needed anymore, and all struggled to marry thin sharply swept wings for speed with low and slow flying and manageable landing speeds.

The Mirage III at least tried to make something of the know-how of the day with its all delta wing which gave it superbly low wing loading*, very good low altitude high speed flying due to the long chord (front to back length)** reasonable maneuverability, good acceleration but speed bleed off in sharp turns and poor landing speeds with very high angle of attack at landing (pilot can't see the runway on short finals). MiG-21 did the best by being a tailed delta. Lightning and Starfighter actually, in hind sight, botched up the whole wing design in all this confusion. Each generation of fighters design wings based on the knowhow, engines and specs of that generation. The 1950s was the age of thin delta wings. By building a wing almost too small (to further acceleration) to carry the aircraft and thus also a high wing loading (rotten maneuverability); then with minimum wing span (for super climb rates & acceleration***) forced it to be too thin which in turn gave high and dangerous landing characteristics, terrible low altitude handling and weak turn rates. All this mixed up really messed up the Starfighter. The fault was not of Kelly Johnson the brilliant Lockheed designer but that of the USAF whose specs focused only on climb rates, acceleration and maximum top speed at the expense of all else. In these three the F-104 excelled at the expense of all else. And it showed.

* low loading = greater maneuverability.
** distance from front to back of the wing at the root determines flying stability at low altitudes below the radar.
***long wing spans add disproportionately to drag and reduce speed and acceleration

PS: The British Lightning was the poorest of the 4 and it showed in its sales record. It lacked an internal gun, carried unreliable missiles, had limited air to ground capability, lousy maneuverability, and absolutely nightmarish maintenance needs. Yet if you read/watch the internet one would think it was the best aircraft designed in the history of motion pictures - the power of youtube!

[ksmrsm]

Originally Posted by AirbusCapt

The flying coffin is a huge misnomer, mainly due to typical press sensationalism and lack of knowledge. The problem we had in the IAF until recently was the lack of an intermediate jet trainer. Trainees would graduate directly from a turbo/piston prop to a rocket with small wings.

Sir, having lost my uncle in 1978 to a mid flight air crash during a routine sortie, we don't know what else to call it except a "Flying Coffin". It has claimed the life of rookies and also experienced pilots. My uncle was part of the Battle Axes and was to be promoted as a Squadron Leader when he lost his life leaving behind a 1.5 year old son.

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by ksmrsm

Sir, having lost my uncle in 1978 to a mid flight air crash during a routine sortie, we don't know what else to call it except a "Flying Coffin". It has claimed the life of rookies and also experienced pilots. My uncle was part of the Battle Axes and was to be promoted as a Squadron Leader when he lost his life leaving behind a 1.5 year old son.

ksmrsm, sorry to learn about your uncle; my condolences to the family and prayers for your uncle's soul!

Military aviation by its very nature is an inherently risky occupation. IAF pilots have lost lives during peacetime while flying other aircrafts types also - Jaguar, Su 30, Mirage 2000. Would they be considered flying coffins too?

Military aircraft accidents occur and pilot lives are lost in the US and other first world countries also, although they use the most modern equipment which, unlike in India, is never flown beyond the best before date.

Post independence, MiG 21 has been the aircraft inducted in IAF in the biggest numbers; it's only natural that more crashes have involved MiG 21. It may be relevant to compare the number of peacetime crashes with the number of aircraft in service and the result is very interesting, as shown by the author of this study:

Ouragan lost, on average, 2.4% of its original numbers in every year that it served in the IAF. This is the highest attrition rate. And interestingly, the MiG-21 comes at the bottom of the list as the safest and least accident prone type, with a peacetime loss of just 0.55% of the total number of aircraft per year in its 58 years of service. This may come as a surprise to many. Prima facie, the MiG-21 has been lost at the rate of 4.67 aircraft a year for 58 years, while the Ouragan was lost at the rate of 2.71 aircraft per year for 14 years. Simply multiplying these numbers for the respective aircraft will give you the numbers lost in peacetime accidents in the service life of each type. Clearly the MiG-21 comes out as one of the safest aircraft in the IAF inventory. Only IAF pilots must know how many hundreds of sorties the MiG-21 has taken them up and brought them back safely. No wonder they love it. The MiG-23, Mystere and Sukhoi trail behind the Ouragan. A pleasant surprise is the HF-24 sitting right next to the MiG-21 as an aircraft whose peacetime attrition was lower than all the others.

Complete analysis here:

https://airpowerasia.com/2021/01/23/...-iaf-aircraft/

[Jeroen]

There were also allegations of payment of bribe by Lokheed to the German Defence Minister Franz Strauss.

It was a whole lot worse in the Netherlands. His Royal highness, Prince Bernard, husband of then Queen Juliana, was found actually taken bribes from Lockheed!

At the time it was a huge scandal that almost brought the end of the Dutch monarchy. Unfortunately, it did not and we are still stuck with it!

Jeroen

[ksmrsm]

Originally Posted by directinjection

ksmrsm, sorry to learn about your uncle; my condolences to the family and prayers for your uncle's soul!

Thank you. It has been close to 45 years now and we have managed to come over it, though dad still feels bad when remembering him.

Originally Posted by directinjection

Military aviation by its very nature is an inherently risky occupation. IAF pilots have lost lives during peacetime while flying other aircrafts types also - Jaguar, Su 30, Mirage 2000. Would they be considered flying coffins too?

Military aircraft accidents occur and pilot lives are lost in the US and other first world countries also, although they use the most modern equipment which, unlike in India, is never flown beyond the best before date.

Post independence, MiG 21 has been the aircraft inducted in IAF in the biggest numbers; it's only natural that more crashes have involved MiG 21. It may be relevant to compare the number of peacetime crashes with the number of aircraft in service and the result is very interesting, as shown by the author of this study

I understand and agree to what you are mentioning, my point being that in the 70's and 80's, the number of life lost on the MIG 21 is far more than the other aircrafts. I also understand that when a rookie moves from a basic training aircraft to the 21, the chances of errors and crashes are a lot higher.

What I fail to understand is when an experienced pilot with a lot of flying hours behind him in this aircraft loses his life for no fault of his. If I remember right, the eye witness accounts said that the aircraft exploded mid air giving him no time to eject.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by directinjection

Correct! India purchased MiG 21 in response to US supply of 2 squadrons of F104s to Pakistan.

Correction - one squadron of 12 single seat F-104As and 2 twin seat F-104B trainers.

These are from my notes I made long ago.

The F-104s served with PAF's first ever fighter squadron - No. 9 "Griffins".

Other than the short assignment of aircraft to the ROCAF (Republic of China/Taiwan), the first overseas customer for the F-104 Starfighter was Pakistan. Following the withdrawal of the F-104A from service with the USAF’s ADC, a batch of 12 F-104A aircraft (plus two F-104B dual-control trainers) was supplied to the PAF under the US Mutual Defence Assistance Programme. They entered service during 1961 and continued to fly until 1972 when dwindling spares support forced their early retirement.

Twelve F-104As were delivered, these being 56-803 to 807, 868, 874, 875, 877, 879, 773 and 798, plus two F-104B trainers 57-1309 and 1312. In response to Pakistan’s requirements, all of the F-104As were refitted with the M-61 Gatling 20mm gun that had previously been removed from most F-104A airframes because of reliability issues. Pakistan had considered the exclusive use of the aircraft’s Sidewinder missile armament but the decision to re-fit the cannon system proved to be a wise move, as the aircraft were soon being used in actual combat. The improved J79-GE-11A engine (designed to be stall-free and to deliver a maximum thrust of 15,800lb) was also installed in the aircraft. This made the Pakistan F-104s somewhat unique in that despite carrying cannon armament, they were still the lightest of the F-104 series whilst being equipped with a more advanced J79 engine, thereby enjoying an excellent thrust-to-weight ratio.

Of the 12 F-104As, two F-104As were lost in the 1965 war:
- 56-877 flown by S/L Amjad Hussein was shot down by S/L Devayya flying a Mystere IVA on 07/09/1965 (56-877 also had a "kill" "claim" - IAF Gnat flown by S/L B S Sikand(landed in Pasrur)
-56-868 was lost in a landing accident

56-805 and 56-807 were lost in 1968 in accidents.

Due to the poor economic situation and Western arms embargos post 1965 war, the condition of the PAF F-104-fleet by the early 1970s was so poor, that most of the aircraft were non-operational and No.9 Squadron, was provided with old F-86Fs to keep pilot hours up. The situation improved significantly in March 1971, when the USA channeled a shipment of spares to Pakistan, enabling the PAF to make five of the surviving eight F-104As and two F-104Bs operational again.

No 9 Squadron moved to Masroor AB from Sargodha AB on December 6, 1971 with a total of 7 F-104s (5 F-104A, 2 F-104B).Commanding Officer was W/C Arif Iqbal. These were supplanted by 9 F-104As of RJAF No. 9 Sqdn F-104s( No.9 Sqdn PAF was affiliated as a 'brother squadron' of the Royal Jordanian AF's No 9 Squadron - flying F-104A/Bs - there were pilot exchange programmes much before the 1971 war).

Nine F-104As of the RJAF arrived at Masroor (Mauripur) Air Base on December 13, 1971. The Jordanian pilots who ferried them were all operational pilots and they flew many air defense missions on these fighters within the Pakistani air space. The PAF did not allow them to fly cross-border offensive missions over the Indian territory.

Royal Jordanian AF F-104As in Pakistan: 56-767, 56-774, 56-775, 56-777, 56-789, 56-799, 56-839, 56-843, 56-845.The Royal Jordanian AF aircraft were painted with PAF roundels during the 71 war.

The Pakistan AF lost five F-104As(3 confirmed + 2 claimed/probable) during the 1971 war including three RJAF F-104As . RJAF F-104A tail number 56-767 was shot down on 17/12/1971(F/L Samad Changezi shot down (KIA) by 29 Sqdn's F/L Arun Kumar Datta flying a MiG-21FL). Two RJAF F-104As(Tail numbers unknown) were "claimed" to having been shot down by MiG-21FLs flown by 29 Sqdn's S/L Iqbal Singh Bindra & F/L Niraj Kukreja on 17/12/1971.

PAF F-104A 56-773 flown by W/C Merwyn Middlecoat was shot down by 47 Sqdn's MiG-21FL flown by F/L Bharat Bhushan Soni. PAF F-104A 56-804 flown by S/L Amjad Hussain was show down by Indian Anti-aircraft Artillery fire(S/L Amjad Hussain was shot down by AAA over Amritsar while attacking a radar installation. He is the only pilot who was shot down in both 65 and 71 wars. It was during captivity in 1971 war that he is said to have confessed to having got shot down by S/L Devayya's Mystere in the 1965 war)

Originally Posted by directinjection

It had earned the sobriquet of widow-maker in West Germany where, by the end of its service in Luftwaffe, 292 F-104s had been lost or written off and 120 pilots had been killed in accidents! There were also allegations of payment of bribe by Lokheed to the German Defence Minister Franz Strauss. One of the pilots to die in an F104 crash was in fact the son of a former German Defence Minister!

Lt. Joachim Von Hassel, a Marineflieger( the then West German Navy) F-104G pilot and son of Kai‐Uwe von Hassel, president of the Bundestag or Lower House of parliament and former Defense Minister,.

The Marinefliger had employed it's F-104Gs in anti- shipping role using Kormoran missiles - one of the many roles that the F-104 was unsuited for!!! There was even a song by the German band Welle Erdball on Lt. Joachim Von Hassel and the F-104G(The thumbnail of the video shows a picture of Lt Von Hassel sitting in a F-104 cockpit):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn5pIY-j2To

The lyrics went something like( translated from German to English):
My name is Joachim von Hassel
I am a pilot of the Bundeswehr
And send you out of my plane
The radio message that nobody hears

Desperately I press the buttons
But the chassis does not extend
Caught in the world of technology
Caught in a steel casket
This is my last flight in my eternity
But I'm not afraid, because you are with me

My name is Joachim von Hassel
And my father will be proud of me
Because I'm faster than the sound
And I'm taking you all with me now

My name is Joachim von Hassel
I am a pilot of the Bundeswehr
To fly around the world
I don't need an airplane anymore

I desperately control the thrust
But the engine stops responding
Caught in the world of technology
Caught in a steel casket
This is my last flight in my shitty eternity
But I'm not afraid, because you will be with me

And also the ejection seat only breaks my neck
I am not afraid because you are, you are with me
You're with me

[robby0707]

Originally Posted by AirbusCapt

The flying coffin is a huge misnomer, mainly due to typical press sensationalism and lack of knowledge. The problem we had in the IAF until recently was the lack of an intermediate jet trainer. Trainees would graduate directly from a turbo/piston prop to a rocket with small wings. The reaction times couldnt cope. Also the mig21 is not really aerodynamic as such. You chop the power and you will stall into the ground like a falling leaf. The glide to land techniques that we all pilots practice is out of the window with such a machine.
The approach and landing speeds are extremely high, if i recollect the landing speed is about 340kmph, much higher than a a320 speed of 250kmph.

This coupled with really small flight times, low fuel capacities, lack of fly by wire and all the helpful computers and mach 2 plus speeds meant that a mig21 pilot had to gain proficiency rapidly inorder to fly safely.
Its like this. If all that you drive are normal everyday cars and i put you into a porche 911 turbo and let you off on a winding ghat road, we all know what may happen.

Is it??
Take the last 10 mig 21 crashes and you will find that none of them were flown by rookie pilots.
It has served our nation well. Its time we say good by to it. We cannot let sentiments take anymore life, be it civilian or military.

[skanchan95]

No. 4 Squadron "Oorials" on the MiG-21 Bison got numberplated on October 30, 2023.


With this, only two MiG-21 Bison squadrons remain operational with the IAF - Sqdn Nos. 3 & 23.

IAF MiG-21 Bison Squadrons
Active
No. 3 "Cobras"
No. 23 "Panthers"

Numberplated
No. 4 "Oorials"
No. 21 "Ankush"
No. 32 "Thunderbirds"
No. 51 "Sword Arms"

All MiG-21 Bison (MiG-21bis UPG) squadrons were formerly HAL built Type 75 MiG-21bis squadrons. However, there were a few MiG-21bis squadrons that did not "upgrade" to the MiG-21 Bison.

MiG-21bis squadrons that did not "convert" to the MiG-21 Bison:
-No. 15 "Flying Lances" - flew the MiG-21bis from 1975 to 2009, after which the sqdn was numberplated. In 2012, the sqdn was re-raised on the Su-30MKI.
-No. 24 "Hawks" - flew the MiG-21bis from 1981 to 1997, before becoming the IAF's first Su-30(K/MK) squadron in 1997, and is an Su-30MKI squadron now.
-No. 26 "Warriors" - flew the MiG-21bis from 1977 till it was numberplated somewhere between 2019 & 2022. It was the only IAF squadron that continued to fly the legacy MiG-21bis fighters till the end.
-No. 45 "Flying Daggers" - flew the MiG-21bis from 1982 to 2002. The squadron was numberplated in 2002 before being resurrected as the first Tejas squadron in 2016.


*No. 20 "Lightnings" - an Su-30MKI squadron, inducted a few MiG-21 Bisons in 2004 for a period of nine months and operated the two jets side by side developing tactics to fully exploit the capabilities of both aircraft types.
*TACDE also has a few MiG-21 Bisons