[Jeroen]

A couple of weeks ago, I spend three days in Hamburg during the so called harbour days. Drove up there in my Mercedes W123. My main reason was to take a trip on the gorgeous Cap San Diego, a general cargo museum ship.

I wrote a thread about that trip: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/comme...g-germany.html (Touring the 1961 General Cargo ship - Cap San Diego, Hamburg, Germany)

I managed to visit two other ships in harbour as well. The classic Dutch seagoing tug Holland (thread to follow) and the U- 434. A Russian Tango class submarine! I am fascinated by submarines. Being a former merchant Chief Engineer myself I am interested in anything that sails. Submarines though are a league on their own. The amount of technology packed into these large tubes is phenomenal. Apart from the odd tourist submarine I have never sailed on submarines. But over the years I have visited quite a number of them. I will list a few at the bottom of this article.

The so called U boot museum is located the famous St. Pauli Fishmarket. There is small entrance building, with a souvenir ship. You buy your ticket and walk outside along a ramp and you get your first view of U-434.



On the way you pass one of its torpedoes:



The U-434 carried 24 torpedoes. Each a little over 8 meters long and weighing two tonnes. They ran, when fired, at about 60 knots (about 111 km/h)

I picked up this little brochure that has some general information. All in German I am afraid. I have borrowed some of the below text from the museum website, which is very interesting too and available in English. (https://www.u-434.de/en/u-boat-museum.html

Here you see a side cut away view of the U-434. She was built at the Russian submarine shipyard KRASNOE SORMOVO in Gorki (now Nizhny Novgorod), about 400 kilometers east of Moscow, in September 1975 and took only 8 months to complete Construction period started on April 29, 1976, fully operational. She was on operational service until 2002. Her original designation was B-515 Buki, but her "board nummer" became 434, hence she was known as U-434. Not quite sure about this term “board number”. I took it from their website, the English version is a bit of a wonky translation of the German version. I am also not sure about this U-434. SThe original U-434 was a German sub, that sunk on her first patrol in 1941. The designation U-xxx is typical German as far as I know. So I am not quite sure about the naming convention here. The website, which provides a lot of information, does not really provide an answer. Maybe one of our members has more insight in this?





She is well over 90 meters long and almost 9 meters wide. She can dive to 400 meters and crush depth is 600 meters. She is powered by three 1733 HP diesels when running on the surface and three 1740HP electrometers when running submerged. She has one additional motor for silent running. Surfaced she would make 13 knots and submerged 16 knots (almost 30 km/h). With a full complament of crew she could stay submerged for 3,5 days!



The Tango class is the successor to the Foxtrot class, the first Soviet diesel electric boat with an anti-sonar coating. It was the conventional counterpart to the Victor II-class nuclear submarines and was originally designed and built for anti-submarine combat. For the first time, the following innovations were used in this Soviet submarine type: a sonar complex instead of individual systems, a connection of the sonar complex with a combat command system, automatic data input into the torpedoes before the shot, an automatic ballast control system and automatic depth control incl. Autopilot. In contrast to the Foxtrot class, these submarines had a better streamlined shape, which made them even more useful for underwater use. Due to the cylindrical shape, which extended over the entire hull, the capacity of the batteries could be increased and a further developed electrical system (e.g. bow sonar and fire control system) could be installed. This special rubber coating made it almost impossible for the sonar equipment of the western secret services to locate this espionage submarine.

For this reason, the tango would probably not have been an easy target for submarine defenders in shallow water. The secret military project 641b, the Tango class, was used by the Soviet Navy on long patrols and submarine hunts from 1976. Due to the little concrete information about this ship, almost hardly any photos and reports made it to the public.

Her crew was a total of 84 men, of which 16 were officers.

A particular problem with submarines is the air supply on dives lasting several days. A closed system was therefore installed in the accommodations and on the combat stations, which regulated the air supply and air regeneration in a separate circuit.

U-434 was armed solely to defend the Soviet "bastions". The areas in which Russian submarines armed with SSBN missiles patrolled or waited for America to be shot down were designated as bastions. Due to the long range of these missiles, it was no longer necessary to cross the open ocean and carry them to America's doorstep.

The U-434 stood inn the service of the Russian Navy until April 2002. After a brief contract negotiation by Russian standards, it was bought by the U-Bootmuseum Hamburg GmbH. The U-434 is one of the last Tango-class submarines in the world. There were probably 20 of them, 3 of which belonged to a special series, including the U-434.

Let’ s go onboard!

This is an image taking standing on the forward hutch. A couple of relevant items; Look at that hull, it looks very “iffy” what with all the tearing and so on. What you actually looking at is the 10 cm think rubber coating on top of the metal hull. The rubber coating was to make the submarine more stealthy and more difficult to detect. You can also see the two large forward diving planes. Normally, when at the surface these would be retracted, you can see the outline of the doors.

You can also see the red/white emergency escape hatch. There is another one at the rear of the boat. In case of an emergency a support submarine could attach itself to the hatch and the crew could be rescued. It was supposed to work till about 60-80 meters depth.



Through the hatch you find yourself in the forward torpedo room. The torpedo rooms on these old sub are usually the largest open spaces in any sub, for obvious reasons. They would have to store all the torpedo tubes and associated machinery, pipes, and so on.

Very often on older subs, crew would sleep here as well. Simple hammocks hanging underneath, the torpedo storage racks. The U-434 could load two torpedos at the same time, which meant faster turn around time in port.

You can see all six torpedo tubes here, she did not have aft torpedo tubes.



Not sure whether they carried torpedoes in the tubes all the time. I know sometimes they do. It makes sense from a storage point of view.

In order to fire a torpedo, the command “flood the tube” would be given. The respective torpedo door at the bow of the sub would open. On the command “fire” compressed air would “push” the torpedo out of the tube, once in the water its own drive would engage. Many torpedos have a sort of mechanical trigger on the outside that would “strike” against a hammer as the torpedo would leave the tube, starting the torpedo own propulsion.

Here we are still in the torpedo room but looking aft. Notice the red emergency hatch that connects towards the red hatch on the hull as shown earlier.



Each submarine (and most ships) are divided in different water tight sections by bulkheads. On each bulkhead you will find this water tight doors. These are the only way in/out a particular section. The diameter is probably about 90 cm. You don’t want to suffering from claustrophobia on a submarine. Being small and agile helps a lot too!

We are looking at the main accommodation area.



On submarines only the captain has his own cabin. (I wanted to type his/her, but I don’t think there are female captains yet, though females are now serving on submarine services of various countries)

Officers were 2-4 to a cabin. As you would expect in those days, separate mess room for officers and crew. Mind you mess rooms would also serve as operating theatre, when required!

Even inside cabins you can’t get away from the pipes and the valves!



Toilet facilities are pretty minimum and you need to dive and duck here as well!



Next we get to the command section. I must be honest, either I somehow missed the actual command space, or probably passed underneath it. Because you can see the periscope tube here on the right.



Wherever you go, every centimeter on this boat is crammed with machinery, valves, pipes, levers, indicators etc.



Through the next section, across the battery space, whole section packed with all kinds of stuff we reach the engine room.



There are two distinct parts to the engine room. The diesel space and the electric space. Initially you come through the control room. A completely bewildering collection of dials, buttons and levers.





It appears all of this is thrown together, in an utterly random fashion. As all the dials, indicators, buttons and levers are labelled in Russian (Cyrillic) it is difficult, even for a former Chief Engineer, to figure out what is what. You can see the telegraph indicator, at the top/middle of the panel. Hugely impressive to look at this old technology.





Next you enter the Diesel engine space. There are three 6 cylinder "turbo diesel direct injection" engines, each with an output of 1733 HP. At its time these diesels were pretty much state of the dirt. Very compact design, pretty power full. Diesels are used for propulsion when running at the surface, or at periscope depth by means of a snorkel.

The diesel drive the electric motors, which also act as generators.



Notice that most of the engine is below the steel plates here, we are effectively looking at the cilinder heads. Pretty roomy, relatively speaking here. I assume they left sufficient space above the cilinders so the could pull a piston out.

They had taken one of the valve covers off and replaced it with this perspex cover. So we can see the rockers and fuel injector.



Next we come to the various main electrical panels.

As I mentioned, the diesel drive the E-motors, which themselves are connected to an individual propellor, so three in all. When the diesels are switched on they drive the E-motors, acting as generators, charging the batteries and driving the propellor. I did not see any evidence, or read about any type of reduction gear and or couplings. So it looks as if each pair of diesel and E-motor was directly couple to the shaft/propellor. At the rear there is also a small E-motor. In German the Schleichmachine. Which translate roughly as “sneaking up” or “creeping” engine. Only 180 HP, it was used for ultra quiet running. Not sure how it connected to the shaft/propellor. Apparently it powered the middle shaft only. Notice the telegraph?



One of the main compressors. Compressors and compressed air are vital in a submarine. Compressed air is used to blow the ballast tanks, so the submarine can submerge. Compressed air is also used to launch the torpedo’s.



Another valve-galore image. No idea what these valves are for. If the Russian navy uses the same colour coding for its valves and pipes as all of the merchant navies, the blue valves control fresh water circuits and the red ones are for fire extinguishing, (which tends to be just sea water).



And then you climb the final ladder and find yourself at the stern of the submarine. We travelled all the way from that large dome on the front of the sub through 8 different watertight sections absolutely crammed with machinery, dials, valves, pipes and lots of other stuff. These submarines were not very big on creature comfort. Modern submarines are roomier, have better facilities. Still, as a crew member, no matter what, you find yourself locked up in a small metal tube for weeks, if not months!



I came across this very cool Panorama viewer on the inside of the U-434, have a look:

https://panoviewer.toolforge.org/#20...rine_B-515.jpg


As I mentioned at the beginning of this thread I have visited a number of (museum) submarines around the world over the years. There are many more, but to give you an idea, if you ever find yourself near these locations, you might want to visit them. Even if you know nothing about submarines, it is a truly unique experience.

In my home country, the Netherlands, there is an excellent Dutch navy museum, which features, very prominently, one of the earlier Dutch submarines. I visited it some years ago and wrote about it:

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/comme...vy-museum.html (The Dutch Navy Museum)

There used to be an old Russian Foxtrot submarine as well, but that has long gone unfortunately.

The UK has a great Royal Navy Submarine museum in Portsmouth. https://www.nmrn.org.uk/visit-us/submarine-museum. As with the Dutch navy museum they have one of their old subs open to the public.

In the USA there are many submarines, open to the public. I visited one in San Diego and in San Francisco you will find an old Russian Scorpio sub!
You can visit the USS Growler in NewYork, combine it with a visit to the USS Intrepid, an old US carrier! Member Foxbat recently visited it, have a look at this great thread: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/comme...one-place.html (A visit to two aircraft carriers, a space shuttle, a nuclear submarine and an airliner at one place)

As we speak an old Russian submarine is being readied to be opened up to the public in the famous Speyer Technic museum in Germany.

So lots of submarine to see and visit. Most, if not all of these, are older types. It is very very difficult to get on board a modern, operational, submarine. The Dutch navy has annual open days and they allow the public into (parts) of one of their operational subs. You actually get to visit to command centre. But on a modern sub, it is all digital displays and all of that will be turned off for public visiting days.

Still, it makes for an interesting visit!

Jeroen

[Chetan_Rao]

Thread moved from Assembly Line. Thanks for sharing!

What's Russian for 'Dive, Dive, Dive!'?

[locusjag]

This is a sub that had been in service till 2002! This makes it all the more interesting, considering that it's not that obsolete.

The USS Nautilus submarine museum at Groton, Connecticut is also a must-see, for those in the US. I've written about it before - https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/comme...ticut-usa.html (Visiting the first of its kind - The USS Nautilus @ Groton Submarine Museum (Connecticut, USA))

There's also the retired Indian Naval submarine INS Kursura (Origin: Soviet Foxtrot class) in Vishakapatnam in India and I am yet to visit this one - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Kursura_(S20)

[srini1785]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

As I mentioned, the diesel drive the E-motors, which themselves are connected to an individual propellor, so three in all. When the diesels are switched on they drive the E-motors, acting as generators, charging the batteries and driving the propellor. I did not see any evidence, or read about any type of reduction gear and or couplings.

I'm a total noob when it comes to naval propulsion systems but I think that the subs propeller is driven almost entirely by the electric motor + battery combo. The diesel engine is used only when the sub is close to the surface so it can direct all the exhaust gases out through some sort of snorkel.

Happy to stand corrected.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by srini1785

I'm a total noob when it comes to naval propulsion systems but I think that the subs propeller is driven almost entirely by the electric motor + battery combo. The diesel engine is used only when the sub is close to the surface so it can direct all the exhaust gases out through some sort of snorkel.

Happy to stand corrected.

You are correct in the sense that diesels are used when the sun is close to the surface or at the surface. However, this particular sub had the arrangement as I pointed out.

The diesel is connected to the e motor which is connected to the propellor. I did not see it, because I did not look for it, but there must have been some clutch between the diesel and the e motor.

Running on diesels at the surface or snorkeling, the py would drive the e-motors as well as the propellor. Essentially, bar the clutch, all the same shaft. So the Diesel would turn the motor, which would act as a generator and charge the batteries, and it would also turn the propellor.

When diving the diesels would be shut down, the air inlet and exhaust valves would close. The clutch between diesel and e motor would be disengaged and the emoter would drive the propellor.

On most submarines the diesel would drive an electric generator which would charge the batteries. There would be a separate e motor connected to the propellor shaft. This U-434 has a somewhat different design.
Hope this makes sense.

Jeroen

[enj0y_ride]

Thanks for sharing. Me too am fascinated with Subs ( as a novice ) and every now and then I google for submarine movies and have pretty much watched all of those. The pictures you posted takes it to an all new level. I always think, why they don't make the interior of space stations and subs more aesthetic/ ergonomic ( though that might be the area inviting least investment ).

[OffRoadFun]

Wow! Very interesting thread.

Such detailed information. Thanks so much.
Hats off to the courageous people who stay in these submarines for weeks! Resolute!

I am somehow fascinated by submarines, especially the nuclear ones. How it is to stay inside for months under water in closed spaces, preparing for that one day when a second (nuclear) strike will be needed (or may be not!)?

I have taken a ride in submarine once (in a retired submarine now used for tourism) off the coast of California, wading through a kelp forest. It was an amazing experience. That was around a 45 minutes trip.

My wife backed off right at the last moment (after buying tickets) when it was time to enter the submarine due to claustrophobia. And people submerged there for months!

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by OffRoadFun

?

I have taken a ride in submarine once (in a retired submarine now used for tourism) off the coast of California, wading through a kelp forest. It was an amazing experience. That was around a 45 minutes trip.

My wife backed off right at the last moment (after buying tickets) when it was time to enter the submarine due to claustrophobia. And people submerged there for months!

My wife grew up in Barbados and for the last fourth years we visited her family at least once a year. I have take a couple of trips on Atlantis. A purpose build submarine. You will find them all over the Caribbean and other touristy places. It is still a real submarine, even though it doesn’t dive very deep.

https://youtu.be/9vgeZsR0gAg

Jeroen

[V.Narayan]

Thank you Jeroen for sharing this and all those photographs. You delivered as promised. A pity to see her hull is not being maintained well by the museum management. Fund shortage maybe.

All,
The Tango was the largest conventional submarine till the Japanese JMSDF Soryo class entered service. In WW2 though the Japanese had a few larger submarines. As Jeroen said these were built to protect the SSBN bastions and attack enemy SSNs/SSBNs at natural choke points. For this the Soviets married the proven propulsion of the Foxtrot with the sonar & weapon suite of the Victor class SSN into a 3800 tonne hull. To enhance its quietness, it was coated with a rubber compound that dampened the active sonar pinging of the enemy while muffling the sounds from within the boat exceptions being the propellor and hull-water friction sounds. It featured, quite unusually knort nozzles on all three screws {a knort nozzle is a cylindrical sheath around the propeller}. This improves thrust and therefore endurance. But is quite unusual for a submarine. It is more common in tugs and utility crafts. They had exceptionally long ranges in excess of 14,000 nautical miles snorkeling at 7 to 8 knots i.e. ~26,000 kms. It was I think the first class of submarines anywhere in the world to sport the rubber coating {I could be wrong; maybe the Victor SSN introduced it earlier} In Navy International and other journals in the 1970s it got written about quite a bit at times with the derision that was a common trend in those days. A decade later the Trafalgar class adopted rubber tiles too.

In the 1980s for a year or so I was a paying guest with one of India's senior most submariners. He regaled me with umpteen tales of his sailing days. One thing he said that in USSR as a part of their training each crew man had to learn nay master operating all the controls by memory in total darkness. Also, every crewman, right down to the cook, had to know how to operate the emergency levers & controls and do it in total darkness. This kind of stuck in my head.

Alas the Tango is now but a distant memory of a nation that does not exist anymore.

[aravindb_0711]

Sorry if I'm asking a dumb question, but don't engines need air for combustion? Where do they get air if they are deep, under water?

[locusjag]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

One thing he said that in USSR as a part of their training each crew man had to learn nay master operating all the controls by memory in total darkness. Also, every crewman, right down to the cook, had to know how to operate the emergency levers & controls and do it in total darkness. This kind of stuck in my head.

I read the account of a newly trained US naval officer who served onboard the ill-fated USS San Francisco (in 2005, it struck an underwater hill in his first trip when he was on watch at the helm). He wrote a detailed account of how he was trained in everything that a lay sailor would do. Surprisingly, he had to perform what I view as menial jobs for an officer-in-training and often he had to bear with evaluations written on his task execution by his would-be subordinate sailors! And in summary, he ended up learning everything there was to know about operating the sub. Finally, the captain had to step away for some reason and he had the helm for a brief period of time when disaster struck...

The point I'm trying to make is that even the US navy seems to follow a similar method of training its men/women aboard its subs.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by aravindb_0711

Sorry if I'm asking a dumb question, but don't engines need air for combustion? Where do they get air if they are deep, under water?

They only use the diesel when they are running on the surface or just below the surface. In which case they have a so called snorkel that sticks out above the sea and draws in the air. Once they dive deeper the diesels are shut down, air inlet and outlets are closed, snorkel retracted (like the periscope) and they switch on the e-motors.

Originally Posted by locusjag

The point I'm trying to make is that even the US navy seems to follow a similar method of training its men/women aboard its subs.

That has been my understanding as well, for other navies. E.g. the Dutch, Swedish and British submarine service have a similar approach to training.

Jeroen

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Her original designation was B-515 Buki, but her "board nummer" became 434, hence she was known as U-434. Not quite sure about this term “board number”. I took it from their website, the English version is a bit of a wonky translation of the German version. I am also not sure about this U-434. SThe original U-434 was a German sub, that sunk on her first patrol in 1941. The designation U-xxx is typical German as far as I know. So I am not quite sure about the naming convention here. The website, which provides a lot of information, does not really provide an answer. Maybe one of our members has more insight in this?

Great thread and probably the most modern submarine open to the public. I have visited 4-5 submarine museums but none so modern as this one.

This usage of "U" in U-434 for a Russian submarine is puzzling and after reading the title I thought it was a German submarine from WW2.

U-boat stands for Unterseeboot in German(under-sea boat), though the German term refers to any submarine so maybe being located in Germany they added the U in front of it. I think it might be a marketing ploy to get more visitors as people will relate to U-Boat (especially in Deutschland) more easily.

[Turbosailor]

[quote=Jeroen;5563804] U- 434. A Russian Tango class submarine! I am fascinated by submarines.

Much appreciated for taking so much effort and sharing all these valuable details. I used to follow most of your threads, which are all pretty informative. Being a seafarer I was fortunate to get access to various warship, merchant ships and offshore drilling platforms but never had a chance to gain access into a SUB. Awaiting more such beautiful and informative threads. Special mention, your photography skills are commendable.