[zionite]

Originally Posted by RM Motorsports

Came across this on social media. Not sure how true this is but Air India is being the #1 loser of luggage with nearly 2% of passengers losing their luggage.

Not sure how accurate is the score and there's no period mentioned.

But with all 3 out of 4 major airlines of India mentioned in the list, its more a problem with the airport operator and baggage handling agency than the airlines.

[libranof1987]

Any idea why you almost never complete two legs of a journey in the same plane, if there are connecting flights? Until a few years back, it was quite common for some passengers to continue sitting in the plane as the same aircraft would take them on the next leg of the journey.

I've taken a fair bit of flights, straight to the destination and via a layover, from/to big airports / hubs, and also smaller airports. But I've always had to change planes. More specifically to this question, I've never heard an announcement asking passengers continuing in the same plane on the next leg to remain seated.

Are such journeys not permitted (by the airline or DGCA), or that they've become impossibly rare?

[ajmat]

Yesterday, our gang of 10 arrived at MOPA to take the 1150 flight back to Bangalore. Visibility was poor due to heavy rain and we were tracking the incoming flight which circled 3 times around Belgavi and returned to Bangalore. I understand those passengers were deboarded for 4 hours.

We created our own cluster near the gate and waited. The Indigo folks gave us as much info as they could. When we saw the weather improve, they let us know that the incoming flight had completed boarding and was waiting to take off.

Indigo provided lunch and tea for those with a boarding pass. Cannot really say that Indigo put a foot wrong in these circumstances.

We reached around 8 PM

[DigitalOne]

Originally Posted by libranof1987

Any idea why you almost never complete two legs of a journey in the same plane, if there are connecting flights? ... that they've become impossibly rare?

With the ongoing travel boom, perhaps the airlines are able to fill seats even to Tier2/3 cities without resorting to 'stops' in between. (In the ticketing sense, these are not 'stops', as they still show up when you choose "Non-Stop".)

I had experienced this last year on an Indigo flight (6E 959) from Bengaluru to Indore where we deboarded, and the flight continued onto Jammu.

[pta320]

Some information I would like to share regarding flights which will help clear certain doubts, as I myself work as an airline pilot in India and experience these on daily basis:

Most of the delays these days are causes by external factors beyond airline's control, especially weather and departing in and out of severely infra limited airport like Mumbai. Monsoon conditions take toll on flying aircraft and lot of deviation in skies have to be made to avoid dangerous weather which inadvertently leads to delays. If some weather patch builds up over an airport, almost all the flights are delayed as the aircrafts are forced to hold until weather conditions become favorable to reopen the airport or allow multiple arrivals/departures simultaneously.

There is a fuel policy which needs to be followed as per the regulation laid down by the civil aviation authorities and the airlines. There is a concept of minimum diversion fuel which needs to be followed very strictly which can sometimes lead to diversion to an alternate airport to refuel and then continue flight to destination, this is more common in monsoon conditions. This inadvertently leads to delays. But all these measures are put in place to ensure maximum safety for the passengers and can never be overlooked. Airlines cannot carry full fuel all the time as its neither operationally nor financially feasible hence fuel calculations need to be done judiciously and although most of the times sufficient extra fuel is carried but being a dynamic environment, things can change within a second and all the planning goes for a toss and so does diversion and delays happen.

Delays these days are hardly due to technical reasons unless you fly in some crapshoot airline with ageing fleet and bare minimum maintenance. All major airlines like IndiGo, Air India etc. maintain extremely high level of aircraft maintenance and any technical issue is usually sorted out very quickly.

An increasing issue these days as observed by me is medical problems faced at the gate which can lead to delay as the passenger either needs to be offloaded or has to be checked by doctor to reconfirm fitness to fly. This eventually has a domino effect and all the flights subsequently are delayed.

Coming to Mumbai, its the busiest single runway airport in the world right now. The ATC at Mumbai airport is one of the most efficient ATCs in the world. There is a severe infrastructure shortage in Mumbai i.e it only has one operational runway at a time and traffic these days is way more than what the airport is supposed to handle hence to my experience almost all the flights that I operated out of or into Mumbai are delayed but same has to be kept in mind that the airport is handling the traffic the best it could at all times. Things will improve as new airport opens in new Mumbai.

A small point which I would like to bring forward, pilots, cabin crew, engineers, gate agents etc. work tirelessly at all times be it 3am in the morning or 5pm in the afternoon. There is no fixed work and sleep cycle, and they have to stay away from home, friends or family most of the times of the year, hence a small amount of respect from the passengers and cooperation and understanding in case of delays help them a lot to stay motivated and also help the airlines mitigate the delay as early as possible.

Lastly, air travel continues to be the safest mode of transportation in the world which is very highly regulated and every time you fly to your destination, it is ensured that you reach safely. In India, as in most the parts of the world, safety of the passengers is the top-most priority and extremely fool proof measures are put in place to ensure the same. I understand that delays can be very frustrating but at the same time majority of them may simply be unavoidable as cutting corners here will jeopardize flight safety and the same has zero tolerance.

[m8002?]

Originally Posted by libranof1987

Any idea why you almost never complete two legs of a journey in the same plane, if there are connecting flights? Until a few years back, it was quite common for some passengers to continue sitting in the plane as the same aircraft would take them on the next leg of the journey.

I've taken a fair bit of flights, straight to the destination and via a layover, from/to big airports / hubs, and also smaller airports. But I've always had to change planes. More specifically to this question, I've never heard an announcement asking passengers continuing in the same plane on the next leg to remain seated.

Are such journeys not permitted (by the airline or DGCA), or that they've become impossibly rare?

Guess what, I just experienced that last Fri. The Air India airbus 350 flies Bangalore->Chennai->Hyderabad.

People flying to Hyd remained seated in the plane in Chennai while more than 50% deboarded in Chennai.

[parambyte]

Since the last many years, I try and avoid Indigo whenever I can.

Their flights are NOT LOW COST.

Many a time, you would find a regular full fare airline’s price within a tasteless beverage and sandwich distance of Indigo. I might as well go for a hot meal and unlimited tea coffee water.

In fact for the longest, I preferred flying Air India since it had the best leg space.

Delays aside, Indigo also pushes people inside the aircraft too soon, and keeps them there until it is finally about to take off. For most of this grounded time, the AC is switched off and you feel suffocated.

And to add to all this poor experience, they don’t even have a frequent flyer program (If they haVe started, I don’t know about it). Even Blue Tokai Coffee has a frequent coffee program.

[SithDefender]

Originally Posted by pta320

Coming to Mumbai, its the busiest single runway airport in the world right now. The ATC at Mumbai airport is one of the most efficient ATCs in the world. .... Things will improve as new airport opens in new Mumbai.

A small point which I would like to bring forward, pilots, cabin crew, engineers, gate agents etc. work tirelessly at all times be it 3am in the morning or 5pm in the afternoon. There is no fixed work and sleep cycle, and they have to stay away from home, friends or family most of the times of the year, hence a small amount of respect from the passengers and cooperation and understanding in case of delays help them a lot to stay motivated and also help the airlines mitigate the delay as early as possible.

Good to hear from an actual pilot with first-hand experience.

We had been to Mumbai airport only once, several years back. We loved the general setting and felt that all the staff were very welcoming and pleasant. In return, we also made sure to acknowledge them. It only takes a smile to brighten up someone's day, as we never know what they might be going through. Simple things such as looking at the person when you say "Thank you" really makes a difference. I have seen this personally when a person smiles because his job demands it, and when he/she smiles back after I acknowledge their help - it is only human.

It is easy to be cynical and disapproving of everything. However, we must take time to appreciate the airport and airline staff for their sacrifices too.

[srh]

Originally Posted by pta320

A small point which I would like to bring forward, pilots, cabin crew, engineers, gate agents etc. work tirelessly at all times be it 3am in the morning or 5pm in the afternoon. There is no fixed work and sleep cycle, and they have to stay away from home, friends or family most of the times of the year, hence a small amount of respect from the passengers and cooperation and understanding in case of delays help them a lot to stay motivated and also help the airlines mitigate the delay as early as possible.

Most flyers understand the operational dynamics which cause delay. Anyone would be ok with a operational delay provided that the rest of the experience is palatable.

The frustration is generally about lack of transparency and weird policies which are in place either by the airlines or regulators or the security apparatus. Airlines don't give the complete information proactively thus causing immense heartburn. Staff generally know 'how much' delayed a flight is likely to be - but flyers are drip fed the delay in instalments of 30/60 minutes. It is frustrating when you receive a SMS announcing a delay of multiple hours after you have started for the airport - most people will prefer sitting at home and start late for the airport. It is criminal to keep flyers stranded on aerobridges for hours. Its is criminal to keep flyers ensconced in the aircraft for hours without AC, food and water.

[MinivanDriver]

Originally Posted by parambyte

Since the last many years, I try and avoid Indigo whenever I can
.

Agree with the points on fare, leg space and loyalty.

However Indigo is my go to airline because I find them the most reliable of the lot. Being from a related industry to airlines, I tend to keenly observe airline operations. Indigo seems to have a process in place which feels safe and reassuring to me.

I don't mind making me board quickly. They seem to want sufficient time to complete all their checks and be ready to push back and taxi as soon as the ATC clearance comes in.

When an airplane is cleared for push back and taxi is beyond the airlines control. Operationally, I feel comfortable with an airline that tries to complete boarding of passengers and baggage as well as other things like fuelling as early as possible so that they are ready for taxi as soon as ATC clears them. It is much more preferred than running late, missing your slot for takeoff and causing cascading delays.

Accidents happen when things are rushed. Indigo also has the largest fleet and average age of their fleet is very less as far as I know.

[Brumby]

Originally Posted by pta320

Some information I would like to share regarding flights which will help clear certain doubts, as I myself work as an airline pilot in India and experience these on daily basis:

Thank you for the detailed info.

I have a few queries though:

1. The actual flying time to destination is always about an hour or so less than the schedule given in the tickets. Probably delays are considered here, how to justify further delays.

2. Why the information about delays is provided in parts, e.g., the airline knows that the flight is delayed by say 3 hrs, but they announce delays multiple times as "half hour delay".

3. If there is a delay, and a customer decides not to fly, as it might be a waste of time due to missed timelines, why not provide a full refund, isn't fairness expected from the so called best airlines.

4. Airlines are here to make profits and run a business, so it's a relationship between a customer and a service provider. Customer pays for services and what is promised should be provided, if you fail please provide refund.

No customer has ever asked for cheap airlines, it's a business operator who saw an opportunity to make money by manipulation and operating no frills airlines.

Hypothetically speaking, if there were no such airlines, does anyone think there will be no passengers for full fledged operators.

5. Compliance to safety regulations is a requirement by the law of the country to be in this business. If any airline wants to cheat on that, they can probably do it once or twice, for sure they will loose the licence to operate.

6. Why airlines make passengers suffer by keeping them in aircraft without air-conditioning, probably no empathy. The flight staff has the privilege to be near the gate during such times but the passengers suffer. Saying this out of my personal experience. If you try to get out of your seat in such situations, everyone knows what happens.

7. In present times, to me, travelling by air seems like the most difficult way to travel. The scariest part is that a pessangers cannot complain even for genuine concerns, because he/she will be blacklisted and may be he/she will be deplaned or airport security will be at the arrival to give a grand welcome. The female staff has to just say that the passenger mis-behaved.

I personally do not feel safe while travelling by air and travel only because there are no other options available. Air travel is just the quickest way to travel over long distances. An individual can travel much faster from Mumbai to Baroda by road than by air (factoring in the time you leave your home and the time you reach your destination).

No doubt there are unruly passengers, but so are the flight crew and airline employees, however for each incident if we look at ratios of incidents to passengers travelling and a same ratio for airline employees, then I am sorry to say that the ratio is much higher for airline employees.

Being in customer service is a choice by an individual, and some incidents of bad behaviour by customers are expected, so dealing with patience is what the way is.

The standards of comfortable flying, even in economy class have degraded all because of these so called no frills airlines.

It sounds like a rant but that's what the truth seems to me in present times.

Cheers

[xenon0025]

Originally Posted by libranof1987

Any idea why you almost never complete two legs of a journey in the same plane, if there are connecting flights? Until a few years back, it was quite common for some passengers to continue sitting in the plane as the same aircraft would take them on the next leg of the journey.

I have travelled in this fashion in India. Erstwhile Jet Airways used to operate a Mumbai - Diu flight. The flight used to travel from Mumbai - Diu - Porbandar - Mumbai.

During onward journey, they announced that passengers de-boarding to Diu can proceed and passengers travelling to Porbandar be seated on their seats. Our boarding passes were verified during de-planing.

On the return leg, I boarded from Diu and the passengers travelling to Porbandar were already seated. At Porbandar, the respective passengers de-planed and we also took on new passengers travelling to Mumbai. It was an ATR-72 aircraft if I recall correctly. During de-planing and taking on new passengers, it used to get really hot inside as it did not have external power source to run the AC. On humanitarian grounds they allowed folks to stand near the plane staircase for whoever asked until the new passengers arrive. Meanwhile 4-6 CISF personnel used to stand guard around the plane.

At this time I got to know that an airline can have this arrangement as well. It was an unique experience.

I am not sure if there is a change in rule after that and if there are routes currently which operate in this fashion.

[xenon0025]

Originally Posted by srh

Most flyers understand the operational dynamics which cause delay. Anyone would be ok with a operational delay provided that the rest of the experience is palatable.

The frustration is generally about lack of transparency and weird policies which are in place either by the airlines or regulators or the security apparatus.

True that. People understand that things can go wrong. What matters is how the situation is handled.

Once we were waiting at the gate and got the text message on phone that the flight is delayed. On checking with the gate agents, got the standard response that it due to operational reasons. I did some digging online based on the flight number and got to know that the previous flight itself was delayed from Delhi due to bad weather.

Frustration builds up when there is lack of transparency.

[fhdowntheline]

Originally Posted by pta320

Some information I would like to share regarding flights which will help clear certain doubts, as I myself work as an airline pilot in India and experience these on daily basis:

Most of the delays these days are causes by external factors beyond airline's control, especially weather and departing in and out of severely infra limited airport like Mumbai. Monsoon conditions take toll on flying aircraft and lot of deviation in skies have to be made to avoid dangerous weather which inadvertently leads to delays. If some weather patch builds up over an airport, almost all the flights are delayed as the aircrafts are forced to hold until weather conditions become favorable to reopen the airport or allow multiple arrivals/departures simultaneously.

There is a fuel policy which needs to be followed as per the regulation laid down by the civil aviation authorities and the airlines. There is a concept of minimum diversion fuel which needs to be followed very strictly which can sometimes lead to diversion to an alternate airport to refuel and then continue flight to destination, this is more common in monsoon conditions. This inadvertently leads to delays. But all these measures are put in place to ensure maximum safety for the passengers and can never be overlooked. Airlines cannot carry full fuel all the time as its neither operationally nor financially feasible hence fuel calculations need to be done judiciously and although most of the times sufficient extra fuel is carried but being a dynamic environment, things can change within a second and all the planning goes for a toss and so does diversion and delays happen.

I think everyone purchasing an airline ticket need to acknowledge this information before completion of the ticket purchasing process, scrolling through all the content, like they do for software license.

We have too many ignorant fools posting on social media, exaggerating their unpleasant experiences while flying.

[AlphaKiloPapa]

Originally Posted by pta320

Coming to Mumbai, its the busiest single runway airport in the world right now. The ATC at Mumbai airport is one of the most efficient ATCs in the world. There is a severe infrastructure shortage in Mumbai i.e it only has one operational runway at a time and traffic these days is way more than what the airport is supposed to handle hence to my experience almost all the flights that I operated out of or into Mumbai are delayed but same has to be kept in mind that the airport is handling the traffic the best it could at all times. Things will improve as new airport opens in new Mumbai.

Thanks a lot for acknowledging this. An Air Traffic Controller has one of the most underrated jobs, at least in India. They come into the picture only when there is an incident like a runway incursion or a near miss at an airport, whether or not the ATC is responsible for that. Due to a lack of proper PR, we are mostly portrayed in a negative image by the media, dramatizing the events, misguiding the gullible public which is already unaware of the SOP's and the rules of the air.

Recently, I came across a news article in a reputed newspaper, where a plane spotter was claiming fame by observing that an aircraft had crossed a runway holding point while an aircraft was given take off clearance, while in reality, as soon as the ATCO had observed the runway incursion, he had instructed the aircraft to cancel take-off. Such is the plight, that the ATC found no mention in the article while it is the ATCO's duty to ensure safety. Social media is full of people blaming us, creating memes. Also, the portrayal of ATCO's in movies such as Dhamaal and Runway 34 doesn't help either. Common public thinks we are the sarkari babus responsible for delaying their flights. Only a fraction of the common public knows what we do. The only people who actually acknowledge our work are the Pilots- the people we communicate with.

Coming to the point of delays, I can add a few points here. It will be slightly technical and it is specific to the Mumbai Airport, although a few points maybe applicable to many other airports as well. The Airport handles close to a thousand movements in roughly 23 hours of operation, averaging to 43 movements per hours. There are two runways crossing each other, thus enabling use of only one runway at a time. It is the busiest single runway operation in the entire world. The primary runway has a maximum declared capacity of 46 movements per hour only during peak traffic, for a duration of 6 hours per day, otherwise it is 44. The secondary runway, on the other hand has a declared peak capacity of 38 movements per hour only, since it involves the crossing of the active runway along with landings and take-offs.

As you can see here, the operation of the secondary runway means that the average number of movements cannot be achieved. The best way to achieve the runway capacity is if there is a 1:1 movement of arrivals and departures. Also, movement of wide body aircraft or slow-moving turboprops/helicopters decreases the hourly capacity. Only accommodating arrivals/departures would also decrease the runway capacity. Also, there are a lot of hours in the day where there is a lack of demand- there aren't enough scheduled movements, thus leading to more traffic during the peak hours. Slots have been distributed, but still, it cannot prevent the accumulation of traffic.

As an end result, there is a lot of Demand especially in Morning and evening hours extending up to 1:30 in the night, which exceeds the runway capacity. As a result, the departures end up expecting Delay on the ground, and Arrivals end up holding in the air. Most of the times the runway ends up handling upto 50 movements in an hour (max achieved is 54 movements in a single hour). But the demand here is such that there are more than 30 departures and 30 arrivals scheduled in some hours, thus leading to delays and creating a domino effect, due to which subsequent arrivals/departures face further delay.

A system called as ACDM (developed in house by fellow ATCO's) is used to generate slots for departures, so that there are only a few departures at the holding point at a given time. This ensures that there are not too many aircraft holding at the Holding point waiting for their departure, burning unnecessary fuel. A lot of departures are ready for pushback before their slot, and therefore have to take a delay for start-up. In case of non peak hours, departures are given startups as soon as they are ready.

The arrivals are sequenced by an approach controller for landing, and they are sequenced in such a manner that there is sufficient spacing between two arrivals so that the Tower controller can plan a departure in between any two arrivals. This spacing has to be very precise, it cannot be below a certain level, and it cannot be too much since that would decrease the runway capacity. All of this taking into consideration the aircraft performance, speed, wind intensity and lot of other factors into mind. Such is the level of efficiency that we are able to handle movements more than the declared peak capacity (more than 6-10 hours in a day) while following all safety standards and SOP's 'to the T').

Thus, we can expect delays even during normal operations during peak hours as there is a huge demand-supply mismatch. Even if a single slot is missed, it will add to the delay. Events such as a missed approach, bird hit, aircraft not ready for departure, VIP movements, non-availability of NAV-AIDS or supporting infrastructure like taxiways, aircraft emergency/priority etc add to the subsequent delay creating a domino effect. Many a times Air Traffic Flow Management measures are undertaken to delay an aircraft startup on the ground itself so that they don't end up burning a lot of fuel while holding in the air. Thus, there are a lot of factors due to which there are delays at the airport from the point of Air Traffic Control.

During bad weather such as Rain, low visibility, gusty winds etc., the inter arrival spacing has to be increased for safe operations. Aircraft are unable to take headings or fly on a desired route because of bad weather, and this severely hampers the runway capacity. This may sometimes cause huge amount of delay as operations are even suspended during adverse weather conditions.

Therefore, please understand that there are a lot of reasons for the delays caused at Airports. I am sure that there are a lot of constraints from airlines point of view as well as they have to ensure a lot of things from their end (such as to ensure optimum turn around time). There is a lot of pressure on the crew as well- to ensure minimum runway occupancy time, carry out all the checks in a limited time frame and prepare the cabin ready for departure before reaching the holding point. It is a combined effort from all stakeholders to ensure smooth functioning while maintaining optimum safety standards.

I know this might not be the best place to rant, but I am fed up of people and media making a mockery of my profession without even having basic knowledge. We are already working with outdated automation amid shortage of manpower. There is no definition of sector capacity here in India and people are working at almost double the sector capacity in the West, sometimes even more.

I have seen people unable to even take a sip of water while working during peak hours or during bad weather for two hours. The allowances are peanuts when compared to our global counterparts. Still, people work silently like a dark knight, without making any fuss. Having worked at Mumbai airport for the past 8 years, I can definitely say that Air Traffic Controllers are one of the most professional people you will find in this country, if not the best. There are barely single digit incidents that happen (out of a million) where the ATCO is at a fault, and whatever comes out is blown out of proportion by the media.