[nivatakavacha]

Prologue

Last week, I watched Avatar: The Way of Water in a theatre near me and it was in that film during a certain fight sequence that I knew that I had to write this article immediately. This theme had been at the back of my mind for a long-long time and being an expert at procrastination does not help. Anyways, after the film, I finally planted my firm bottom very firmly onto a seat like a leech and did the necessary research for writing this article. It was cathartic in many ways since I had to sift through many childhood memories and forge my way down the rabbit role through endless google hyperlinks. Hope you will like it.

I will come back to that particular film sequence later in the article.

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Right from a young age, I have always been fascinated by the human achievement of mastering flight. What people dreamt about for centuries was made possible on December 17th, 1903 by the Wright Brothers. It was a relatively short flight of 12 seconds but paraphrasing the famous words of Neil Armstrong, it was a “Giant leap for humankind”.



So much has changed over the last 100 years and we now take air transport for granted; often not realizing the extent of technological changes over the years. Today air transport is often called the safest way to travel but it was not the same a hundred years back. I truly am amazed when I think of the initial batch of people who took to the skies chasing their Icarus-isque dreams. The first flyers were pioneers, who often risked their lives and livelihood; financially bootstrapping their own flights with flimsy rudimentary machines either for fame or the adrenalin rush.

Another fascinating topic for me growing up was the evolution of fighter planes. We today talk about the fifth and sixth generation fighter planes but not many people are aware of the initial days of air warfare. Today with the use of modern tech, radar and guided missiles; fighter planes and drones have become more of instruments of “Aerial Combat” where the enemy remains unseen and the fight remains highly impersonal. But back in the heydays of fighter planes, the planes were more machines of “Dogfight” where the enemy plane was often 50 feet away from you and the fights highly personal. I am a big WW1 and WW2 plane aficionado and I hope (by writing this article) that more people get bitten by the same bug.

Note: One of the reasons I fell in love with the topic was because I discovered (in my youth) the novels written by Capt. W.E. James about his famous character Bigglesworth who joins the RFC (Royal Flying Corps) at a tender age of 17 and becomes a flying ace during WW1 over the western front. Please do check out those books if you are interested in the same. (Biggles learns to fly, Biggles of the Camel Squadron, Biggles in France etc.) I used to pour over them when a kid and imagined piloting a Sopwith Camel over marine drive, Cochin back then.



While humans have always since time immemorial, been perfecting the art of slaughtering each other, WWI was a major game changer when it came to art of warfare. WW1 was unique for a few very important reasons:

1. It was the first major conflict where animals (cavalry/pack animals) stopped being relevant with the advent of the battle tanks and trucks.
2. Humans have always fought on water but the introduction of submarines led to major advances in ocean warfare and transport. WW1 was one of first major conflict in which submarines were widely used.
3. The concept of trench warfare. Earlier battles were often huge set pieces.
4. Finally, most importantly, it was the first global war in which planes was used on such a mass scale. Superiority over the skies was an added dimensional in the mastery of war. All the rulebooks and guides, all that was taught at military schools changed overnight. It was the war where people like Oswald Boelcke devised the first rules of engagement in the air.

The first documented use of airplanes in war actually predates WW1. By 1910, balloons and airships were used regularly for artillery spotting, cartography and detecting troop movements. But the disadvantages and limitations were obvious – poor maneuverability and flammability. Countries warmed up the idea of airplanes as military equipment and set about forming their own primitive air forces. France setup its “Armée de l'Air” in 1909/1910. Germany founded its “Luftstreitkräfte” in 1910 and Britain formed its “Royal Flying Core” in 1912.

The first documented use of airplanes was in 1911 during the Italo-Turkish War when an Italian pilot Carlo Piazza flew a sortie over Turkish lines in North Africa in a Blériot XI plane. Over the course of that war, there is more innovation involved when pilots dropped bombs and leaflets over enemy forces. Overall, the number of Italian pilots were about 6 in that entire campaign and even though their influence over the course of the war was negligible, the shock value it provided was immense. They used a mix of aircrafts including the Blériot XI, Etrich Taube and probably the Nieuport II as well.



Coming to WW1, after the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, things quickly escalated due to the complex alliance network between the European powers (a plan which in the immortal words of Blackadder was “bollocks”) and the entire Continent plunged into war. At first, people were skeptical about the uses of the plane in warfare but then through 1914, most of the generals and marshals initially warmed up to the idea of using planes for reconnaissance and artillery spotting.

From what I could research, Britain had about 66 pilots (in 4 airplane squadrons) at the break of WW1 and they used the B.E.2.B plane to fly across the English Channel. France was more advanced and had about 150 airplanes, pilots and used a mix of Blériot XI, Morane-Saulnier L, Farman MF11 and Caudron G3. The German started the war with about 250 planes with a mix of Etrich Taube, Albatros Doppeltaube and Aviatik B1 being the dominant ones.

Getting reliable information from the net seems to be a tough task since there were a plethora of planes and variants used back in those days. The planes were rudimentary back then and our modern cars have more horsepower than the engines used back then for those planes. The planes were a motley mess of metal, fabric, wood and wires. It might seem comical now, but the Farman MF11 was called the “Bird Cage”; the theory being that the biplane had some missing wire connection between the wings if a sparrow managed to escape from it. The average early planes had engine with about 60-70 HP, had a top speed of 60 MPH and a ceiling of 12,000 feet.




In the initial stages of the war, the planes were primarily used for reconnaissance and they did not aim to master the skies above. Enemy pilot often saluted one another when they had encountered each other above the skies. They usually came under rifle fire from the ground and the first documented case of airplane loss due to rifle fire was a British Avro 504 shot down by German troops in Aug 1914. Both the pilot and the observer were killed in action.

When the importance of reconnaissance was recognized by all the participants of the war, the pilots and observer started shooting at each other with pistols when the planes passed each other. This really was not very effective but at times, it did enough to scare of the enemy pilots. The planes were also used for bombing when pilots would drop hand held bombs into enemy formation. One of the more extreme measure some pilots would take was aerial ramming where they would use their planes to ram enemy planes (suicidal in many ways). Russian ace Alexander Kazakov was a proponent of the ramming theory!

The first documented case of aerial victory by shooting is attributed to Sergeant Joseph Frantz who along with his observer Louis Quénault, flying a Voisin Type 3 biplane shot down a German Aviatik with a Hotchkiss machine gun on October 5th 1914.

In the early days of the war, accidents caused more causalities than enemy fire. The squadrons worked out of available fields and takeoff/landings were notorious for causing accidents. Also, pilots would lose their way, their sense of direction when up there (especially the rookies) and it was not uncommon for pilots to land in some field and ask for direction from the local populace.

This brings us to the main technological challenge back then.

Mounting machine guns into planes were a lot easier in pusher type propeller driver planes where the propeller was behind the pilot and gunner. This opened up the field of view up front to the gunner who could fire at enemy aircrafts. But this design had its own aerodynamic limitations and hence, the Tractor configuration was preferred by many where the propeller was ahead of the pilot like the planes we see today.

However, this had a major challenge since guns could not shot through the delicate wooden propellers without damaging it. Hence, at the start of the war, the British still preferred the pusher type while others were experimenting with machine guns mounted over the upper wing. But that was not effective either. The pilots could not aim properly and the early guns were prone to jamming as well.



Little did the early aviators know that their world would completely change in 1915; the rules of aerial warfare were to change forever. And it has a French open Connection as well. I am presuming that many of you would have heard about Roland Garros and the French Open. It is actually named after the famous aviator called Roland Garros and he has an important role to play in this story.



He was born in 1888 and took to flying in 1909. In the prewar era, he was famous for setting quite a few attitude records and he was also the first to make the solo non-stop flight across the Mediterranean from the south of France all the way to Tunisia. He was already a famous person. Once the new of the war broke out, he found himself in a sticky position since he was in Berlin at that moment. It took some planning, a lot of courage but he hopped onto the near available plane and made his way to Paris and enlisted in the French air force.

As described above, the limitations of the current planes that he had was frustrating when he was with the Escadrille MS26 and in late Oct/Nov 1914, he visited the Morane-Saulnier workshop to work along with Raymond Saulnier to find a solution for this problem. They realized that the only way they could solve this problem was by finding a mechanism where the guns would fire synchronously through the propeller blades. This would give the pilots total control and accurate aim for taking down enemy aircrafts.

They solved the issue partially with a crude mechanism and Roland Garros and his mechanic Jules Hue fitted their Morane-Saulnier Type L with this mechanism and took to skies in April 1915. The results were apparent and Roland shot down a couple of German planes in a space of a few weeks. Word soon spread around. The Germans were caught napping and it is said that at that time, German planes flew away when they spotted a single seater Morane-Saulnier Type L back then. The tables would soon turn when Roland himself was struck by ground fire on 18th April and was forced to land in German territory. He could not destroy the plane quickly and the design fell into German hands. Roland himself would become a POW and his story arc becomes one of trial and tribulations.

Antony Fokker augmented this design with an interrupter system and came up with his version of the synchronization gun and this would literally change the war. The German military quickly put this into production into the Fokker Eindeckers and the first planes with the lethal forward firing machine guns flew over the western front by June/July 1915.



The period of July 1915 to early 1916 was called by the Allied as “The Fokker Scourge” since the Allied planes did not have an answer to this new technology and this was a period of German Air superiority. The Fokker Eindeckers were not very superior to the Allied planes but this crucial technology helped them rule the skies.

Thus began the age of the “Ace”. An ace was a pilot who shot down a minimum of 5 enemy planes.

Two Germans, very important to this story got their hands on these new planes and they laid down the rules of modern aerial combat as we know it today – Max Immelmann and Oswald Boelcke.

All throughout 1914, they flew their reconnaissance sorties, took pictures, tried shooting at enemy planes with pistols and rifles. They were frustrated at that time because they could not do more but they became seasoned airmen. The skills that they possessed coupled with the synchronized gun gave them an advantage that not many had.

On 1st August 1915, Max got this first aerial victory when he shot down British Pilot, Lt William Reid who had come over on a bombing exercise in his B.E.2 plane. In the letter that he wrote to his mother post the battle:

“Suddenly, I saw Boelcke going down in a steep dive. As I learned later, his gun had jammed badly and he could no longer fire. I was just halfway between Douai and Arras when I saw a third flier far ahead of me. We were at about the same altitude. I could not see whether it was an enemy or one of ours. I flew towards him. Then I saw him drop bombs over Vitry. Now it was clear: an enemy. I climbed a bit and flew towards him. I was about 80 to 100 meters higher than him and about 50 meters away in a straight line. I could see the French emblem big and clear: blue, white and red rings. Now there was no longer any doubt. The other two came at me now, although they were still a bit higher. Like a hawk, I dived on the one and fired my machine-gun. For a moment I believed I would fly right into him. I had fired about 60 shots when my gun jammed. That was quite awkward, for to clear this jam I needed both hands, without being able to operate the control column. This was new and strange to me, but it worked. In the course of the flight that happened to me twice.
Meanwhile the enemy headed towards Arras. Quickly, I came up alongside him and cut off his way back, in which he was forced to make a left turn, that is in the direction of Douai. We came down about 400 meters. During my respite from firing, I heard only softly the machine-gun clatter of the enemy still above me. I kept myself constantly perpendicular to my victim because no biplane can fire perpendicularly upwards. After 450 to 500 shots, the battle had lasted about eight to ten minutes, the enemy went down in a steep glide. I followed him. I could no longer fire, the machine-gun had broken. When I saw that he had landed I landed near him immediately."

--------X-----------

Max would land his plane beside Lt. William Reid, shook his hand, gave him first aid and told him that he was his prisoner!

As the months ticked along, the Ace race was truly on. The first aces in the war were German. One day it would be Max, the next it would be Boelcke and there were others who joined in the party as well. Boelcke would summarize and crystallize all their learning this his famous treaty called the “Dicta Boelcke” which was shared with all incoming German pilots.

1. Always try to secure an advantageous position before attacking. Climb before and during the approach in order to surprise the enemy from above, and dive on him swiftly from the rear when the moment to attack is at hand.
2. Try to place yourself between the sun and the enemy. This puts the glare of the sun in the enemy's eyes and makes it difficult to see you and impossible for him to shoot with any accuracy.
3. Do not fire the machine guns until the enemy is within range and you have him squarely within your sights.
4. Attack when the enemy least expects it or when he is preoccupied with other duties such as observation, photography, or bombing.
5. Never turn your back and try to run away from an enemy fighter. If you are surprised by an attack on your tail, turn and face the enemy with your guns.
6. Keep your eye on the enemy and do not allow him to deceive you with tricks. If your opponent seems damaged, follow him down until he crashes to be sure he is not faking.
7. Foolish acts of bravery only bring death. The Jasta (squadron) must fight as a unit with close teamwork between all pilots. The signals of its leaders must be obeyed.
8. For the Staffel (squadron): Attack in principle in groups of four or six. When the fight breaks up into a series of single combats, take care that several do not go for one opponent.

If any of you have read the Biggles novels that I mentioned earlier, the Sun could be the pilot’s greatest friend or foe up in the sky and these paradigms were set by Boelcke himself based on his experience. The base rules would further be expanded upon by the next generation of pilots including – most notably, the greatest ace of WW1 – Manfred Von Richthofen (The Red Baron) and he, along with the “Flying Circus” would rule the skies in 1916, 1917 and 1918.

The “Fokker Scourge” came to an end in early 1916 with the advent of new Allied planes like the British F.E.2b pusher aircraft, the Airco DH.2 and the French Nieuport 11 planes. The British still preferred their pusher type planes but these were 2 seaters and the gunner could attack the German planes.

The British equivalent of the synchronized machine gun came into service in March 1916 and this helped turned the tide against German air superiority with the Bristol Scouts.

From 1916 onwards, the race was to make better more powerful, faster, more maneuverable planes and the race was firmly between the British and the Germans who outclassed the others in making these weapons of war. The other countries too had their own Aces and Heroes and you can refer to them in this link.

Some of the eminent German planes included the Albatros D.III, Fokker Triplane and the Fokker D.VI.

Some of the eminent British planes included the Royal Aircraft Factory S.E.5 and my favorite plane of all time – the Sopwith Camel.



Ain't she a thing of beauty?

I will not go into details about these aircrafts as I have hyperlinked all of them for reference.

By the end of WW1, planes had become an integral part of the military and all the nations invested a lot of money into development of their air forces. Planes became more safer to fly and many of the technological advancements made were poured back into civilian planes.

The Interbellum period saw more development in fighter plane technology but it was WW2 which again pushed the envelope for fighter plane development and strategy. The jet engine that we use now was developed and used first during WW2 in the plane - Messerschmitt Me 262.

At the peak of the war in 1917 and 1918, the average life expectancy of a rookie pilot was just a few days. The conditions were brutal, they had to run multiple sorties throughout the day. While I might have romanticized those initial cavaliers of the sky in my youth, the sheer brutality of it all sank in as I have become older.

PS: I had talked about the inspiration for this article right? In the climatic fight in the movie, one of the Ikrans make a classic Immelmann turn. That coupled with many of the Ikran sequences all have the marks of classic WW1 and WW2 dogfight maneuvers. Thanks all for patiently reading through this. I would love to read your insights and other significant nuggets of information that I would have missed to mention in this article.

[Aditya]

Thread moved out from the Assembly Line. Thanks for sharing!

[shankar.balan]

@nivatakavacha: Thank you very much for this thread. Like you, I have always been enamoured by aeroplanes and WW1 and WW2. And I love the freedom of flight, have taken a few lessons and may one day take at least the effort of a micro light license.
In my case too, this fascination began with my reading all the Biggles books at the club libraries in Munnar and Anamallais and in school. So much so that starting from age 8, right up until last year, I have managed to collect almost every single Biggles title in various editions from sometimes obscure antiquarian bookshops across various parts of the world. I thus, have 98 of the 103 books. Including a couple of Capt. W.E. Johns Gimlet books. (His style of writing, like Rudyard Kipling’s is certainly ’old-fashioned’ as are some of the expressions used, which have little resonance today. The perspectives can be construed as being quite chauvinistic if viewed with the lens of today, but they are representative of those times!)
Apart from these books there is another very good one called ‘The Unfeeling Sky’. And others by Gavin Lyall ‘The Wrong side of the sky’ and Desmond Bagley ‘Flyaway’.
And lovely films like ‘The Blue Max’, ‘The Battle of Britain’, ‘Those magnificent men in their flying machines’ and the like, all of which are essential reading/ viewing for those interested in this topic. In pursuit of this interest I have traipsed up and down various museums like RAF Hendon, Udvar Hazy, Air Force Museum Ohio, the Smithsonian and all. And have in my small way tried to find and collect appropriate scale models of some of the aircraft that I was enamoured of, like the Sopwith Camel, Fokker Triplane, Messerschmitt Bf 109 and Supermarine Spitfire. Its hard to find an Albatros, Spad, FE2B, Bristol, DH4, DH7 and all. (Am not on the level that our fellow members V Narayan and Foxbat operate at, but much humbler).
We should definitely connect offline soon if you are so inclined. I am in Bangalore but am also deeply connected to Madras.
Till then, Tally Ho!

[nivatakavacha]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

@nivatakavacha: Thank you very much for this thread. Like you, I have always been enamoured by aeroplanes and WW1 and WW2. And I love the freedom of flight, have taken a few lessons and may one day take at least the effort of a micro light license.

Thanks a lot Shankar for your reply and your recommendations of books and films. You have an amazing library my friend and I would love to collect books from that era for my son who is all of 4 now, so he can read up on all this when he grows up.

Going to England and visiting the various museums across the country has been on my bucket list for a long time; will connect with you when I get the opportunity to make such a trip. Thanks again for your response and the pictures. And yes, we should definitely connect offline on this topic.

[fhdowntheline]

One can write multiple PHD papers on the subject of evolution of airplanes between the two World Wars and it will still not be enough. Suffice to say that the quantum leap achieved between say, 1914 and 1945 is perhaps unparalleled. More so, the evolution of the jet aircraft under the constant barrage of war. How the Germans kept their innovation and research going especially after 1941-42 to come up with Me 262, FW 190 and the V rockets is just incredible. The trajectory of development of aviation post the war is also equally interesting, but most of the real wonders of manned flight, barring the breaking of the sonic barrier, had been achieved. Everything that followed was an improvement on the numbers and scale.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by nivatakavacha

I would love to collect books from that era for my son who is all of 4 now, so he can read up on all this when he grows up.

And yes, we should definitely connect offline on this topic.

Good idea! All too few youngsters these days have the reading habit. You may want to get him started on some of the Commando picture books and Biggles picture books to begin with so as to catalyse the interest.
I can give you some pdfs of Commando books if you like and unfortunately the Biggles picture books have become rare and expensive though the regular Biggles books are available both in paperback and on Kindle. You will also find old pre-owned Biggles books in two places - 1. Very likely along Luz corner in Madras where they sell old books. 2. Definitely in Blossom book shop on Church Street in Bangalore.
England and the US are full of interesting museums with plenty of artefacts especially the machinery and vehicles relating to the War years.
And we do have the excellent HAL Aeronautical museum in Bangalore near the old Airport/ Marathahalli/ Yemalur stretch. Easily accessible and well maintained.

[V.Narayan]

A big thank you to you @nivatakavacha for putting together this useful article on the early history of aerial warfare and its evolution. This period of a century ago is not studied much at least in India except by a few enthusiasts. I am sure many readers will learn a lot from your thread - I certainly did - I did not know about the first use in the war of 1911 between Turks and Italians :-) As @fhdowntheline states an equally exciting period lay between the two world wars when the role of the aircraft in war matured. And it took the next 25 years after WW2 for the role of aircraft in commerce to get fully matured. Thank you for adding to the rich repertoire of aviation threads on Team BHP.

[nivatakavacha]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

One can write multiple PHD papers on the subject of evolution of airplanes between the two World Wars and it will still not be enough. Suffice to say that the quantum leap achieved between say, 1914 and 1945 is perhaps unparalleled. More so, the evolution of the jet aircraft under the constant barrage of war. How the Germans kept their innovation and research going especially after 1941-42 to come up with Me 262, FW 190 and the V rockets is just incredible. The trajectory of development of aviation post the war is also equally interesting, but most of the real wonders of manned flight, barring the breaking of the sonic barrier, had been achieved. Everything that followed was an improvement on the numbers and scale.

So True @fhdowntheline. The interbellum period is just so full of technological advancements. Maybe we should continue this series to research more

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

A big thank you to you @nivatakavacha for putting together this useful article on the early history of aerial warfare and its evolution. This period of a century ago is not studied much at least in India except by a few enthusiasts. I am sure many readers will learn a lot from your thread - I certainly did - I did not know about the first use in the war of 1911 between Turks and Italians :-) As @fhdowntheline states an equally exciting period lay between the two world wars when the role of the aircraft in war matured. And it took the next 25 years after WW2 for the role of aircraft in commerce to get fully matured. Thank you for adding to the rich repertoire of aviation threads on Team BHP.

Thanks a lot @V.Narayan Sir. The more I research on this topic, I more I realize that I know very little! Need to read up more on this early period.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

A And it took the next 25 years after WW2 for the role of aircraft in commerce to get fully matured. Thank you for adding to the rich repertoire of aviation threads on Team BHP.

Some wonderful planes to add to the garnish on this thread.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by nivatakavacha

Thanks a lot @V.Narayan. The more I research on this topic, I more I realize that I know very little! Need to read up more on this early period.

:-) The more we read, the more we learn. My first book on aircrafts was gifted to me at age 4. I still have it. And after 58 years of reading I'm still learning.

It is a credit to those pioneering designers such as Anthony Fokker, Thomas Sopwith, A. V. Roe, Raymond Saulnier, Louis Béchereau etc that they actually made these machines fly. Due to engine development being in its infancy and materials being only wood, tarpaulin, steel and wires these machines were marginal on power, aerodynamic lift and aerodynamic room to manoeuvre even. And yet they made something out of it by managing to carry a pilot and a machine gun with ammunition. That is why they needed two (bi-planes) or three (tri-planes) wings to get enough left.

The design advances spurred by WW-I solved the first steps of wings that could lift, engines that developed enough power to lift something more than their own weight, structural strength that did not cause a break up on landing, aerodynamic stability that did not send the aircraft into a tailspin at the drop of a coin and so on. In the 1020s and 1930s other complex issues such as navigation, night flying, determining altitude & speed over the ground, airport management protocols, radio communication in the air & air to ground, safety in the air etc

The fighters of WW-I were not all comparable as the evolution was so rapid that a machine of 1918 was two generations away from a machine of 1914. Of the final fighters that fought in WW-I the three top in my opinion were:-


Fokker D.VII - German entering service in 1918 this aircraft in terms of dog fight capability and steadiness in flight was so much better than any other that the Treaty of Versailles required that all D.VII's not confiscated by the Allies be destroyed. This was in most respects the apogee of WW-I fighter aircraft design. It had what was probably the most advanced wing in WW-I which improved its stalling behaviour and ability to stay stable at very high angles of attack enabling German pilots to get behind and below the enemy, angle up and shoot from below. Gross weight, 906 kgs; Engine, 160hp; Speed, 189 kmph


Sopwith Camel - British Designed in 1916 and entered service in 1917 this is the oldest of the three. Aircraft design jumps in WW-I were counted in months not years. By end of the war in November 1918 the Camel was outmatched by the other two here. Though a notoriously difficult aircraft to fly its maneuverability outclassed anything else in the sky for a year in 1917. Gross weight, 659 kgs (!!!) Engine, 130 hp; Speep, 182 kmph


Spad. XIII - French.The best Allied design of WW-I. And the most sought after fighter by foreign air forces after WW-I. Other than an advanced wing it had a high compression engine that gave better power at altitude and in climbs. Gross weight 857 kgs; Engine, 200 hp; Speed, 211 kmph

Compare the horse power figures with our cars. Are our cars way over powered?

While fighters stole the show in WW-I the real path breaking work where design went was achieved by the early bombers - the Sikorsky Ilya Muromets, world's first 4-engine aircraft and the British Handley Page & Vickers Vimy 2-engine bombers



Igor Sikorsky of Russia successfully designed the world's first 4-engine aircraft and Russia used it as both a bomber and a transport aircraft. For its time, 1913, this was a superlative technical achievement and it was a successful aircraft. In an era where other designers were struggling to carry a weapon payload of 2 machine guns weighing less than 60 kgs and achieve a range greater than 200 kms this machine carried a weapon load of 500 kgs and could fly 500 kms. Igor sikorsky left Russia for USA when the communists took over and became the father of the modern helicopter.



The other was the British Handley Page Bomber. Its 900 kgs weapon payload and 1100 kms range was so good that it wasn't till the late 1920s that newer bombers substantially improved on these figures.


And most famous was the Vickers Vimy, 2-engine bomber that was used to complete the first Atlantic crossing by air in 1919, the first UK to Australia flight and several other aerial route proving flights that laid the foundation of passenger services in the 1930s.

[lapis_lazuli]

I am not sure if this is totally off topic but out of curiosity, this Indian gentlemans' flying machine (claims) predates Wright Brothers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shivkar_Bapuji_Talpade

How true is this? Is it so easy to completely drown the story of a groundbreaking invention to the extent that absolutely no documented record, whatsoever, exists? Request OP, our resident expert DBHPian Mr. Narayan and others to shed light.

This was happening around the same time or somewhat before the other flying machine experiments elsewhere.

https://htschool.hindustantimes.com/...first-aircraft

[nivatakavacha]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

:-) The more we read, the more we learn. My first book on aircrafts was gifted to me at age 4. I still have it. And after 58 years of reading I'm still learning.

Wow, thanks for the comment. Many of these machines were introduced late in the war and had negligible impact on the war. Another example would be the Sopwith Snipe which was introduced as an upgrade to the Sopwith Camel.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by lapis_lazuli

I am not sure if this is totally off topic but out of curiosity, this Indian gentlemans' flying machine (claims) predates Wright Brothers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shivkar_Bapuji_Talpade

How true is this? Is it so easy to completely drown the story of a groundbreaking invention to the extent that absolutely no documented record, whatsoever, exists? Request OP, our resident expert DBHPian Mr. Narayan and others to shed light.

This was happening around the same time or somewhat before the other flying machine experiments elsewhere.

https://htschool.hindustantimes.com/...first-aircraft

Dear @lapis_lazuli,
Thank you for calling me the resident expert. Just by way of clarification there are several on Team BHP with far greater knowledge and insights. I merely write the most.

All,
There are several fake claims from several countries of folks who claim to have flown before the Wright Brothers. Interestingly most of these claims were not known till social media got invented and we entered a world where any one could write anything without a shred of factual back-up and stake a claim and throw a spanner of doubt into the minds of the lay man. We live in a world of fake claims buttressed by journalists who themselves don't do any homework, publishing these in their newspapers, and giving false claims credibility. Then to claim that the British rulers crushed the design begets questioning. If indeed it was even half an aircraft the rulers would have confiscated the design and the prototype to enhance their own efforts. No record of this exists in the annals of Indian Govt records, the Indian Army or anywhere in any aviation research journal except this self written article in Wikipedia. Unfortunately fake claims get repeated on social media and start to gain credibility. For example there was an Indian stowaway who joined the Royal Flying Corps as a mechanic in WW-I and after returning to India started claiming he was a pilot and had bombed Berlin! And his descendants harp on this claim in social media. Fact is no Allied aircraft could even fly to Berlin let alone bomb it. The technology simply did not exist then. Similarly social media invented the incorrect claim that VT (India's suffix for aircraft registration) stood for Viceroy's Transport. I would advice we not pay attention to every knave who types.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/comme...leaders-2.html (Air India One : The new official airplane of India's leaders)
Post #22 in the link above addresses the VT issue, a fake news created by social media, that even got raised in Parliament by ignorant politicos looking to earn mileage

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

How the Germans kept their innovation and research going especially after 1941-42 to come up with Me 262, FW 190 and the V rockets is just incredible.

Care to recommend any books that cover the innovation aspect; especially on how it underwent the different stages (before or during WW2)? I'm quite the buff interested in WW2 but most cover the innovation as a side note or the resultant impact of those weapons (e.g. V1 & V2 rockets) during the war.

[skanchan95]

Nicely compiled thread about the first Dogfighters. Got to learn a lot about a topic that I was always too lazy to read in books and on the internet.