[reppy]

Although I am a die-hard fan of the Tejas, I just cannot come to grips with the issues that are pertinent for the IAF to not entrust it's belief in this aircraft. It performed well in Operation Gagan Shakti in 2018 as per BS Dhanoa's own words, and now the IAF again has issues with it's radar and other features. Infact the speed with which MK1A is being developed, with the 1st flight trials already done, might indicate skeletons in the closet of the current MK1 FOC variant. What baffles me more is that why HAL is not scaling up production despite a confirmed order for 83 MK1A's. Even at 16 aircrafts a year, it will take them 5+ years to complete the order!

Thanks to the Tejas delays, the MIG-21bis has its task cutout - perform till you perish.

[windiesel]

On similar lines, in India we have had two aircrafts with the same engines viz. the Gnat (aka Ajeet) powered by one Bristol Siddeley Orpheus engine, and the HF-24 Marut, by two of them.

[JediKnight]

Good riddance !!!

While we are at it why not dismantle HAL as well. An incredibly ill performing public resource hog.

I am out of depth here so please forgive my views if they are superficial/un-informed/extreme.

I am sick of reading talented young pilots lives being lost in these "flying coffins".
If my memory serves me right two top test pilots got killed just after taking delivery of aircraft from HAL.

How is India supposed to become a world power with such extreme incompetence/stupidity in planning.

Why not now use these aircraft to ferry politicians now.
At least some good will come out if it.

[Gypsian]

It apperas that our indigenous Tejas will take on the role of the MIG 21. Would be interesting to see how the Tejas will take up its new role.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/video...099897241.html

[Lalvaz]

Originally Posted by JediKnight

Good riddance !!!

While we are at it why not dismantle HAL as well. An incredibly ill performing public resource hog.

I am out of depth here so please forgive my views if they are superficial/un-informed/extreme.

You're forgiven for being superficial/uninformed/extreme.

But why rant here when you know you're uninformed? HAL is doing an incredible job in creating defence infrastructure. If any nation wants to be strong, it has to build in country capability in defence. Its not easy, and its not cheap, but its essential.

Have a good day.

[Lowflyer23]

Originally Posted by Lalvaz

HAL is doing an incredible job in creating defence infrastructure. If any nation wants to be strong, it has to build in country capability in defence. Its not easy, and its not cheap, but its essential.

Well what the OP said is partially true. I'm sorry to say this but aircraft accidents (on all types) have only increased with increasing localisation of aircraft parts in HAL. A SU-30 catched fire on it's first take off from the HAL runway.

But again, several other factors come into play in large scale deals which most Indians are aware of, so I'll refrain from going there.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by locusjag

In honour of the Mig-21, please do upload those pics here.

Here's the one from Sqdn Ldr P K Bundela MiG-21bis guncam:

Notice the missile plume - the R-60 missile is seconds away from smashing into the Atlantique's port side engine.

On 10 August 1999, Sqn Ldr Prashant Kumar Bundela was a part of two IAF MiG-21bis of No. 45 Sqdn "Flying Daggers"( the same sqdn that went on to be IAF's first Tejas Sqdn) on Quick Reaction/Scramble Alert(the other MiG-21bis was being flown by Fg Offr Sanjeev Narayanan) at Naliya AFS. They were scrambled at 11 a.m. to investigate an "unidentified" aircraft flying in Indian airspace near the Indo-Pak border in Kutch. They identified the intruder as a Pakistan Navy Atlantique Maritime reconnaissance aircraft. After a series of visual warnings asking the intruder to land at the nearest IAF base, the intruder manuevered aggressively against Sqdn Ldr Bundela's wingman. They got the clearance to shoot down the Pakistani plane. Sqn Ldr Bundela fired an R-60 air-to-air missile and shot it down killing all on board. Sqn Ldr Bundela was awarded 'Vayu Sena Medal" on 26 Jan 2000 for his gallantry and exceptional flying skills.

Sadly, Sqdn Ldr Bundela died after a long battle against injuries sustained after ejecting from a MiG-21bis in 2002.

As for the other one with the Chinese IL-18/20 in a MiG-21's gunsight, I promise I will post in the thread as soon as I find it (it is there in one of the books I have in my personal library).

[Lalvaz]

Originally Posted by Lowflyer23

Well what the OP said is partially true. I'm sorry to say this but aircraft accidents (on all types) have only increased with increasing localisation of aircraft parts in HAL. A SU-30 catched fire on it's first take off from the HAL runway.

An aircraft is an incredibly complex contraption, and its quite possible that mistakes have happened, resulting in increased accidents, once the parts have been localized. Heck, we always say that CBU or imported parts for our cars are far superior to the localized parts, don't we? But we still localize since imported parts are expensive, and part availability is a concern. This is all the more so in the case of defence purchases. Do you want to be at the mercy of a foreign nation who then hikes up the parts just because you've purchased their aircraft? What good is an aircraft if you don't have parts to make it serviceable?

Regarding HAL and other PSU units in the defence arena, I suggest that one atleast goes through their Annual report which is available freely on their website. It will be an eye opener in terms of what they have achieved. More importantly it also throws light on the fact that HAL is profitable and does not depend on govt bailouts to sustain itself unlike what the gentleman thinks.

Enough said, but I hope you get the point.

[FrozeninTime]

It's bit off topic
The first major trouble with MiG 21 started in mid 1980s and first grounding of entire fleet happened in 1985-86.

A link to article that appeared in 1985-86 in India Today
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/d...953-1986-06-15

[ads11]

Originally Posted by GForceEnjoyer

Due to a sudden spate of crashes (6 since January 2021) resulting in fatalities (5), the remaining 4 squadrons of IAF will be retired in 2025.

Source: TOI

As others have pointed out, we've heard this story before. It's hard to take this at face value especially given there's no big programme ongoing or about to initiate to replace the capability or even just airframes..

Originally Posted by dragracer567

In addition, the IAF is also planning to start phasing out the upgraded Mig-29 UPGs by 2027, DARIN - I and II Jaguars by 2030 and DARIN III Jaguars by 2034. Nothing on the Mirages, so I assume these will continue into the 2040s along with the SU-30s.

..coupled with reports like this, it's hard to see the IAF suddenly coming across the huge budget bump to pay for replacements.

Originally Posted by Pacifica

To a layman like me, what I find really bizarre is the sheer variety of different aircraft that the IAF has in its fleet. There seems to be no attempt at all to rationalise the different types of aircraft...

Great comment, just a few errors. The F-15 ironically is taking on a lot of the roles the F-22 was supposed to cover before the numbers were drastically cut by SecDef Gates (there's really only about a 100 or so combat coded F-22s available, a paltry number). But like you said, the high-low mix combining a 5th gen platform with upgraded earlier gen jets is very much the way to go (if the USAF is embracing fiscal reality here you can bet it'll have to be the default for pretty much everyone else). They stopped flying the Aardvark about 25 years ago, think it was only the Aussies who soldiered on with it into the new millennium.

Anyway coming to the main point, you're right. In the 80s the Pentagon looked at the air frame mix in the USAF and decided they wanted to simplify and that was a major decision impacting the way the JSF was structured. India having such a diverse mix of aircraft is a logistical nightmare evident to even the lay person but when you realise that the aircraft orders are sometimes used as diplomatic levers, I guess it's actually fitting in terms of India's larger non-aligned posture that it seeks to have a bit of everything without fully committing to one platform. Shame really because there are instances such as the Rafale could simplify IAF and IN logistics if selected for both service contracts.

Good point about the IAF having no need for a strategic bomber, and well noticed about the risk for the aging Jaguar airframe in an ever more restrictive air defence environment (I've not seen any movement on this front and it has to be a concern given it's a nuclear delivery system).

Originally Posted by dust-n-bones

Another side to this story. The 'standardized' F-35 platform comes at an eye popping 2 trillion USD price tag. Meant to service all of US Army, Navy and Air Force, the project is plagued by delays, cost overruns, snags - you name it.
A story similar to our Tejas adventure , at a superpower scale.

In hindsight, the big pitfall of the JSF idea of having one airframe fit all 4 service requirements was accommodating the damn USMC - everyone, even LockMart will quietly admit now, that having the A & C platforms share an airframe whilst keeping the VTOL B variant separate would have been vastly the better plan. Sure enough you can see that in the approach the Chinese have taken with their FC-31 (it's no secret looking at the thing that the jet drew heavily from the F-35, no doubt helped by the huge industrial espionage by the Chinese military). They've gone and added an extra engine in place of the complex lift fan and voila, you have the jet the F-35A and F-35C could have been if they weren't held back by the USMC digging their heels in on the one engine and VTOL requirement.

The Tejas in comparison I'd say hasn't been helped by moving goalposts from the customer and poor management from the vendor.

Originally Posted by Lalvaz

Regarding HAL and other PSU units in the defence arena, I suggest that one atleast goes through their Annual report which is available freely on their website. It will be an eye opener in terms of what they have achieved. More importantly it also throws light on the fact that HAL is profitable and does not depend on govt bailouts to sustain itself unlike what the gentleman thinks.

While it's excellent that HAL is financially self sustaining, for me at least a major gripe I have with them is that they're always overpromising and underdelivering. I just wish they'd be a bit more pragmatic about what they can practically achieve in house and just set about quietly getting what they have on their current docket completed first before asking to take on more work. I know it's been mentioned before but I'd second the fact that I think the onus is on HAL at this point to force the IAFs hand when it comes to the Tejas - HAL needs to up production of the Tejas, ramp up their capacity and throw the ball in the IAFs court when it comes to the fact there are no orders incoming. Hopefully given the manufacturing and jobs boost having a major line running would bring, you'd get the political impetus then to force the IAF to blink. It would also help if the IAF made up their mind in what they want out of the Tejas, establish a better two way customer-supplier relationship to iterate the platform.

[Lowflyer23]

Originally Posted by Lalvaz

An aircraft is an incredibly complex contraption, and its quite possible that mistakes have happened, resulting in increased accidents, once the parts have been localized. Heck, we always say that CBU or imported parts for our cars are far superior to the localized parts, don't we? But we still localize since imported parts are expensive, and part availability is a concern. This is all the more so in the case of defence purchases. Do you want to be at the mercy of a foreign nation who then hikes up the parts just because you've purchased their aircraft? What good is an aircraft if you don't have parts to make it serviceable?

I'm not against localisation but the technicians and workers there need to understand that even slight bit of casualness in assembly could result in loss of lives. Such a sensitive workplace needs disciplined workers, often it's the man who makes the mistake while building and not the part itself is faulty. We all are aware of the casual "chalta hai" attitude which follows in the sarkaari offices. Though I do respect these institutions, few people bring bad name to them.

[chandu]

There are a few factual problems here in your post.
1. The US does not use the F-111 anymore, it was retired many years ago after the first Gulf war.
2. They have many more fighters F22, F15 (several versions that are similar in name only - C, D, E etc), F16 (A,B,C,D,E,F several blocks with various capabilities, once again similar in name alone), F35 (A,B), They have 2 engines for the 15 and 16, one by GE and one by P&W.
3. If you consider the USN then you will have to add the FA-18A,B,C,D,G and the F35C
4. What is the P9 Neptune? if you are talking about maritime recon, the plane is the P8 Poseidon.

India has many more types because of its history of procurement and the fact that we had very little choices due to lack of money prior to the 2000's.
The Mig 21 was our first multi role jet, India was pretty much the first country to actually use the Mig21 as a multi role jet (ground attack as well as Air to Air).
The Tejas was developed as a replacement for the Mig21 but unfortunately due to various reasons (which will be a whole another story in itself, you should read the BR forums for that information) it has not been purchased in large quantities. We hope that finally the IAF will wake up and order a boat load of them at least now.
The saga of the MRCA is famous among any Indian Mil Av enthusiast. At a time when we should have shut our eyes and taken the French offer of the M2000-5 with the production line and ToT, our politicians who were so afraid of corruption allegations after the Kargil Coffin Scam decided to open up the MRCA competition to everyone who was interested, single engine, multi engine, light weight, medium weight etc etc. And we all know how that ended.
Ideally we would have a Heavy weight fighter that can take the fight to the enemy and a light weight fighter in numbers to defend against attackers but that is not going to happen anytime soon.
What we need right now is for the IAF to issue orders asap for the Tejas in large numbers to replace the Mig-21 and Jaguar and eventually the M2000. The heavy weight class is already taken care of with the Su30 and the Rafale.
What has always been left unsaid is that the reliability of the Russian jets has been poor and that the IAF has wanted western jets to upgrade its technology but what they fail (or refuse to understand) is that we have to develop our own tech just like the chinese have done. Nobody will give us their crown jewels just like that. The faster the top brass and decision makers understand this, the better it will be for the nation. Solid long term support is required for Indian products, backed with money for R&D and orders so that companies will invest to produce these.
With regards to the transports, the IAF has been wanting a western solution for ages and purchased the C130J and the C17 but unfortunately dilly dallied on more C17's and the line closed after which we could not order more of them which we really needed.
the Awacs is a whole another story, I could go on for a few more pages but I think you get the gist.
As many IAF chiefs have said many times, the 21 is not a flying coffin, it is a beautiful and capable jet, but, it is unforgiving to fly, specially during landing which is why so many accidents have happened, but, then again, it was 80% of our air force at one point so it will, by numbers, have the max number of crashes too. Ask any pilot who has flown the 21 and a majority will say that it will always be their first love.

Cheers... and sorry for the rant.

Originally Posted by Pacifica

To a layman like me, what I find really bizarre is the sheer variety of different aircraft that the IAF has in its fleet. There seems to be no attempt at all to rationalise the different types of aircraft.

Fighters (multi-role): 36 x Rafale, 272 x Su-30, 69 x MiG-29, 51 x Mirage 2000, and 31 Tejas.
Deep Interdiction bombing: 130 x Jaguar
Fighter (interceptor): 127 x MiG-21
(All data from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...itary_aircraft)


For tactical bombing there is the F-111.

Strategic bombing is handled by the B-52, B-1, and B-2.

Shouldn't the IAF structure really be:

A heavy, twin-engined, air-superiority fighter: either the Su-30 or the Rafale, not both.

A cheaper single-engined fighter-bomber that we can buy a lot of: Tejas or Gripen or something in that class. Even better if the light and heavy fighters use the same engines, cannons, ammo, and weapons for commonality and cheaper weapons costs.

A deep-interdiction bomber: the Jaguar is really old now and needs to be replaced by something that can carry a heavy payload a long distance, flying low and through heavy air defences.

A long range patrol bomber for ocean coverage - the P-9 Neptune is perfect.

A tactical transport and a heavy transport.

Force-multipliers, such as aerial refuellers and AWACS, preferably based on a common airframe as the long-range patrol bomber or the heavy transport.

We clearly don't need strategic bombers.

When even a rich country that can afford an expensive air force can standardise on two classes of fighters, why does the IAF need six different types of fighters alone? Our economy is a fraction of the size of the US, can we really afford such a bloated force structure?

[fhdowntheline]

My biggest gripe on this is fact that mainstream media rakes up the issue just because its immediate and convenient and can be used as a bashing stick. My view is that media should not be exposed to so much information about military and strategic affairs. If by extension that includes social media like ours , so be it. No one from the media is making any serious enquiry about the ecological impact of hundreds of km of multilane highways under construction. They will wait until the next natural disaster strikes.

[Lalvaz]

Originally Posted by ads11

I know it's been mentioned before but I'd second the fact that I think the onus is on HAL at this point to force the IAFs hand when it comes to the Tejas - HAL needs to up production of the Tejas, ramp up their capacity and throw the ball in the IAFs court when it comes to the fact there are no orders incoming. Hopefully given the manufacturing and jobs boost having a major line running would bring, you'd get the political impetus then to force the IAF to blink. It would also help if the IAF made up their mind in what they want out of the Tejas, establish a better two way customer-supplier relationship to iterate the platform.

So If I understand you correctly, you expect HAL to ramp up their capacity by setting up production lines and expedite the production of Tejas without any confirmed orders from the IAF ?

Just in case that's really what you meant, may I ask you to show me one country which manufactures fighter jets like that?

[apachelongbow]

Mig 21 is a tough aircraft to fly. Takeoff and landing speeds in excess of 340 kmph (civilian airliners takeoff and land at about 250kmph). The tail delta wing is like a rocket. The glide is almost non existent and the airplane willl stall and fall like a leaf if one is a bit careless. The endurance is all of about 20 mins once airborne.