[HsekarK]

Saddened to see the news of the surviving pilot Grp Captain Varun Singh is no more.

Apparently he was stable till last night but passed away due to MOF today at 1pm.


With him all primary info that could have been received is no more and the only information available would have to be inferred from 'BlackBox'.


Regards

[Moto$apien]

Very sad indeed. He was a HERO, they all were.

May God bless them all and provide exemplary strength to their families.

Hope some concrete learning emerges to prevent such an unfortunate incident in the future.

[condor]

Missing Man Formation, on the ground:

[Rahul Bhalgat]

The investigation of this crash is already going on. Wiki page mentions the cause as "CFIT (under investigation)".

Have the FDR and the CVR recordings been retrieved?

[Rahul Bhalgat]

The tri-services inquiry team formed to probe this crash is expected to submit their report to the government by December 31.

Black box data has been analysed thoroughly. The help of orginal equipment manufacturers has also been taken.

[Rahul Bhalgat]

As per the news by The Hindu, the investigation has found that the accident is a CFIT case, and it happened due to disorientation of the pilot because of poor weather.

As per the news, the report has been sent for legal review, after which it would be submitted to the Govt.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the...84094.ece/amp/



One question for the experts / pilots on the forum:
Can the pilots get disoriented when they have instruments on board? There were two pilots, two sets of instruments and no instrument failure.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by Rahul Bhalgat

... Can the pilots get disoriented when they have instruments on board?

I think V.Narayan has answered this in an early post. It was almost scary just reading his superbly-written description of what can happen. Do look back: well worth reading.

edit. There are two excellent background posts by V.Narayan:

post 1 (Military helicopter crashes in TN, senior officials including CDS, Gen Bipin Rawat on board)
post 2 (Military helicopter crashes in TN, senior officials including CDS, Gen Bipin Rawat on board)

But, apologies to him, the graphic description I was thinking of was posted by stallmaster. You can read that post:

here (Military helicopter crashes in TN, senior officials including CDS, Gen Bipin Rawat on board)

I think there is a heap of education for us non-pilots in those posts! In fact, you might want to read the entire thread. There is probably great information in posts I have not thought of.

[Ankur@VNS]

As per an aviator’s (Group Captain Sivaraman Sajan) perspective:

CFIT is real.
It can happen to the best of pilots depending on contributory factors.
If an aircraft flies into terrain due pilot error, it is uncontrolled flight or UFIT and not CFIT. Therein lies the subtle difference.

Is it ‘Pilot Error’?
Straight answer is ‘No’.

Did the Pilots descend below clouds to keep terrain in sight?
Possible.
All I’m saying is that CFIT is not always HE(A).

Why does CFIT happen?
Many reasons

-Disorientation
-LOSA (Loss of Situational Awareness)
-Subtle incapacitation
-Navigational Aid malfunction

The hallmark of CFIT is that the aircrew is unaware of impending collision with terrain.
The aircraft is very much under control till the final phase of impact.

Is CFIT classified as Human Error (Aircrew) or HE(A)?
It depends. What caused CFIT will have to be pinpointed first. There have been CFIT cases on fast jets due to G-LOC (G induced Loss of Consciousness) or on airliners due to Nav Systems malfunction. So, not all CFIT are HE(A).

Is there a conspiracy angle in this high profile crash?
There’s just one answer to it and it’s a big NO.

Some FAQ has been replied as well ;

(1) Doesn't helicopter fly in clouds?
(2) Isn't helicopter slow enough to avoid/fly round clouds ?
(3) Helicopter pilots usually fly at highest terrain (+1000 ft) in special VFR till landing site is visible in which case helicopter should not have crashed near Katteri etc.


Ex GC Sajan replied :

(1) & (2) Sure they can.
(3) If they had filed IFR, which wasn’t the case here.
Clearly the helicopter wasn’t flying at authorised altitude, if the tourist video is genuine.


https://t.co/eX9uEf2g9l

[TKMCE]

A little off topic but related, there was an article in today's Malayala Manorama online about an air crash at Jorhat where the 5 man crew died but the passengers including the then PM Morarji Desai survived.

Following up, I found a very poignant survivor's account in Bharat Rakshak which is reproduced here.

https://https://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/history/1970s/1364-jorhat-crash.html#gsc.tab=0

[dust-n-bones]

Originally Posted by Ankur@VNS

CFIT is real.
It can happen to the best of pilots depending on contributory factors.
If an aircraft flies into terrain due pilot error, it is uncontrolled flight or UFIT and not CFIT. Therein lies the subtle difference.

Is it ‘Pilot Error’?
Straight answer is ‘No’.

Why does CFIT happen?
Many reasons

-Disorientation
-LOSA (Loss of Situational Awareness)
-Subtle incapacitation
-Navigational Aid malfunction

If there is no equipment malfunction, then disorientation, LOSA etc seem to be symptoms of a pilot who is incapable of flying in the given conditions. So the cause does seem to be human error.

If we say neither equipment nor humans were at fault, that is the surest recipe to repeating the tragedy.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by dust-n-bones

If there is no equipment malfunction, then disorientation, LOSA etc seem to be symptoms of a pilot who is incapable of flying in the given conditions. So the cause does seem to be human error.

Accidents never happen for a single reason. It is an unfortunate chain of events that eventually leads to an accident. A pilot in command is just the last link in that chain. But if we want instant noodles instead of a deep inquiry and are looking for someone to pin the blame on, anything goes!!!!

[Rahul Bhalgat]

Here is what I read on how the crash happened:

On the crash details, the sources said the Mi-17V5 was following a railway line in the hills when it entered a thick cloud cover that emerged suddenly.

The chopper was flying at a low altitude and knowing the terrain, it emerged that the crew decided to fly out of the cloud cover rather than land, and hit a cliff in the process, the sources said.

https://m.rediff.com/news/report/gen...h/20220105.htm

[Ankur@VNS]

Originally Posted by dust-n-bones

If there is no equipment malfunction, then disorientation, LOSA etc seem to be symptoms of a pilot who is incapable of flying in the given conditions. So the cause does seem to be human error.

If we say neither equipment nor humans were at fault, that is the surest recipe to repeating the tragedy.

Terms of Reference of this Tri-services inquiry - led by Air Marshal Manvendra Singh, (the country's top helicopter pilot), has basically following questions :

1. What happened?
2. How did it happen?
3. Why did it happen?

although, the entire investigation report is yet to be submitted to the Ministry of Defence, but still, the progress report has been discussed amidst top officials including the minister recently.

Sources based revelations confirms CFIT.

So CFIT answers Q1 (What aspects only)
Clouds/ poor visibility/ disorientation answers Q2. (How aspects only)
Answers to Q3 (Why aspects) is yet to be submitted.

And that would be the most important ones that can prevent future accidents.

Originally Posted by skanchan95

Accidents never happen for a single reason. It is an unfortunate chain of events that eventually leads to an accident. A pilot in command is just the last link in that chain. But if we want instant noodles instead of a deep inquiry and are looking for someone to pin the blame on, anything goes!!!!

That is the key point. Hence the tendencies (sources based media reports) to attribute CFIT as Pilot error or Human Error (Aircrew), is bit too early and may lead to disastrous conclusion.

CFIT is the outcome and not the cause.
It may have been caused by one or many factors including Human.

[dust-n-bones]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

Accidents never happen for a single reason. It is an unfortunate chain of events that eventually leads to an accident. A pilot in command is just the last link in that chain.

Agreed. The intention is not to assign blame for the sake of it, but to identify root cause(s) of the accident and ensure it never happens again.

Originally Posted by skanchan95

But if we want instant noodles instead of a deep inquiry and are looking for someone to pin the blame on, anything goes!!!!

Please refrain from imputing a motive where none exists. A deep enquiry will no doubt be conducted, we should be vigilant against jargon hiding the real problems that may go un-addressed.

It should not happen that there is a high profile accident, and the cause is determined to be a 'complicated sequence of unfortunate events'.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by dust-n-bones

It should not happen that there is a high profile accident, and the cause is determined to be a 'complicated sequence of unfortunate events'.

Exactly! That is why using harsh words like "incapable of flying in certain conditions" for the deceased air crew even before the official report comes out(if ever) is demeaning to the crew.

The Unit CO, who is not around to defend himself, was in command of the helicopter and if he wasn't 'capable', he would not have been the CO in the first place!

Speaking of squadron/unit COs who died in harness, there was Mi-17V5 crash in Uttarakhand in similar circumstances during flood relief operations 7-8 years ago. That ill-fated Mi-17V5 too was being flown a senior pilot of that unit - W/C Castelino and he had flown extensively before in that area. Sadly, it too was a case of CFIT in poor visibility and high terrain (while returning from a rescue mission). Did that make W/C Castelino incapable of flying or did it give the right for anyone to question his flying credentials? It was just a case of being at the wrong place at the wrong time. Weather in the hills can change in seconds and no amount of training or flying skills can prepare anyone for the worst or for flying blind through thick clouds that suddenly appear over high terrain and surround the aircraft's flight path.