[sierrabravo98]

Originally Posted by whitewing

Today, while reading the annual report of Mishra Dhatu Nigam Ltd.
Came across this under its achievements section -
So, it appears the programme is still active, with a repurposed end goal.

Yes, the AURA (now named Ghatak) programme was supposed to use the non-afterburning version of the Kaveri. Good to know that the otherwise shadowy programme (referring to the AURA here) is witnessing forward movement.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by shortbread

Kaveri's issue was it did not generate enough thrust required for modern fighters. Kaveri engines will now power future Indian unmanned fighter drones.

Given how the Chinese have struggled with their WS-10 engines and the fact that had the full weight and resources of their military industrial complex behind it should say all you need to know about how much of an uphill struggle the Kaveri effort would be for India.

The fact the Kaveri just hasn't shown much promise yet, refocusing towards UAV usage is a rare and very welcome bit of pragmatism. High performance turbofans are still the purview of very few and mostly Western dominated manufacturers. With the power issues of the Kaveri, might as well give it a much lower performance criteria to aim for. UAV missions will have much more forgiving engine profiles given a lot of it would involve loitering on station, far less stresses on any components compared to say frontline fighter service (no sudden, rapid maneuvers; less requirement for sprints and dashes so to speak). It's obviously not ideal when the goal was to have it engine the majority of domestic fast jets but for the medium term, this will at least mean there's a stronger likelihood of seeing the engine fielded sooner on smaller UAV platforms.

Basically I guess the question is do you aim for getting a final B spec engine out the gates from the onset or are you happy to start with an interim A spec that you can field and gather usage data on to help refine the B spec? The perils of the concurrent development model right there I suppose.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by ads11

Given how the Chinese have struggled with their WS-10 engines and the fact that had the full weight and resources of their military industrial complex behind it should say all you need to know about how much of an uphill struggle the Kaveri effort would be for India.

That is because the process of reverse engineering is very different from the science of product development. Even Iran with scant resources have a production line of domestic Kowsar jets developed by cloning F5s.

In terms of the Kaveri, I agree with what you said. Thankfully they aimed for the skies and in the end jumped high enough to pluck an apple. The struggles are well documented and history will remember it as a failure. Perhaps a homegrown UAV with the Kaveri engine might be the twist in the tail. (See what I did there! )

[ads11]

Originally Posted by shortbread

That is because the process of reverse engineering is very different from the science of product development. Even Iran with scant resources have a production line of domestic Kowsar jets developed by cloning F5s.

I get what you mean regarding reverse engineering but we can't go off of F5 clones. What I'm getting at is the requirements of modern high bypass turbofans, and I mean both civilian and military usage, you're looking at scant few OEMs who have that. Off the top of my head really you have GE, Pratt & Whitney, Safran and I guess Rolls Royce. Correct me if I'm wrong but those are the only serious players. Even the Russians have had scant luck with their modern engine programme for the likes of the Su-57 (I think till date they're all just slightly tweaked versions of the AL-31 series engines, so an interim solution at best). It almost feels like now you're at the point of chasing marginal gains and increasingly the nuance lies in the materials and metallurgical science capability in house and that just isn't as easy to replicate (ample evidence in that regard) but even do clean sheet.

But yeah, they definitely aimed for the stars with the lofty original goals for the Kaveri.

[shortbread]

I think India pulled a smart one by getting RR to agree on a ToT engine collaboration venture. RR desperately needs some revenue and good news, India on the other hand needs to get its hands on elusive technology.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by shortbread

I think India pulled a smart one by getting RR to agree on a ToT engine collaboration venture. RR desperately needs some revenue and good news, India on the other hand needs to get its hands on elusive technology.

Wasn't aware there was a deal inked with RR. If so, canny move indeed. RR have been falling behind GE and P&W in the civil engine market with the issues with the Trent series, and I can't imagine the picture is any rosier in the defense divisions. They'd definitely welcome any largesse coming their way and they'd still have a lot of in house expertise worth tapping. Anything that can kickstart a bit of a stagnant programme (ie, Kaveri)

[saikarthik]

Just saw an incredible display of maneuvering of a LCA Tejas and presumably LCH (crazy vertical climbs and what not) near HAL, Bangalore. We were having a tea- break and we got lucky to see the high speed maneuvering on LCH and Tejas with a smoke trail and loud sounds.

No sonic booms though!

Anyone knows why this was done today? Was it a demo to some one?

[shortbread]

Dr.Kota's child like excitement is infectious, nice interview and looking forward to Part 2. For the time starved one can skip the first 4 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rjt5gdEBlw

[for_cars1]

Originally Posted by ads11

... Anything that can kickstart a bit of a stagnant programme (ie, Kaveri)

They could start by coming up with a better(more inspiring or relevant) name for a jet engine. They can't name it after a river and be inspired enough to make it fly.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by for_cars1

They could start by coming up with a better(more inspiring or relevant) name for a jet engine. They can't name it after a river and expect it to fly

Naming aero engines after rivers is an old British tradition which we have adopted. see nothing out of place with it.

Originally Posted by saikarthik

Just saw an incredible display of maneuvering of a LCA Tejas and presumably LCH (crazy vertical climbs and what not) near HAL, Bangalore. We were having a tea- break and we got lucky to see the high speed maneuvering on LCH and Tejas with a smoke trail and loud sounds. No sonic booms though! Anyone knows why this was done today? Was it a demo to some one?

I'm a bit confused. The LCH (Light Combat Helicopter) and the LCA (Light Combat Aircraft) could barely be maneuvering together given that the top speed of the helicopter would be just above the aircraft stalling speed. Or do you mean they demonstrated their flying in succession. A sonic boom would not be indulged in over a populated area.

[saikarthik]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I'm a bit confused. The LCH (Light Combat Helicopter) and the LCA (Light Combat Aircraft) could barely be maneuvering together given that the top speed of the helicopter would be just above the aircraft stalling speed. Or do you mean they demonstrated their flying in succession. A sonic boom would not be indulged in over a populated area.

In quick succession sir. We saw the LCH doing an insane vertical climb, following some right turns and a loop bearing the smoke pod. While the LCH moved out of the sight for landing the Tejas started demonstration, again intense maneuvers. We sporadically see some flight tests on Dhruvs, Tejas but this time they were flying then like they were showcasing it in an aeroexpo with potential customers.

The sound was too high, we didn't expect a supersonic transition but thought they might push it.

[dragracer567]

It seems that the HAL Tejas Mk 1A has been selected as the top pick for Malaysia's fighter jet program. For the initiated, Malaysia is running a competition to purchase light fighter jets for their air force. The competitors include the Tejas, JF-17, Korean FA-50, Russian Mig-35 and Yak-130. The JF-17 was a late entrant and apparently the cheapest though technically weaker than the Tejas. One of the aspects that strongly favor India is the offer to setup an MRO facility for the Malaysian Su-30s that are having operational issues due to Russian sanctions, I believe these Su-30s are actually based on our own Su-30 MKIs. Apart from that, the Tejas also share the same engine as their F/A Hornets - the GE F404s.

India has also offered to setup a Tejas production line in Egypt if they purchase the Tejas for their requirement of around 70 jets. It will interesting to see how Egypt responds, they already have more Rafales on order than India and now if selected, will field almost as many Tejas Mk1As as India itself which has ordered only 83.

It shows that the Tejas program has matured when foreign players show confidence on the product, especially in comparison to other more established players.

[lancia_fanboy]

2 Pilots killed in Mig 21 Aircraft Crash
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/air-...report-3203690

I don't understand that every year or so, we lose our brave Pilots, yet the Air Force seems to be moving so slowly, and if I may say so, in a hugely disinterested manner, that it is nothing short of criminal.

I don't know the exact specifics, but from an ordinary layman's perspective, why can't we order Tejas in way more significant numbers than the paltry amount we have asked for right now?

[ads11]

Originally Posted by lancia_fanboy

2 Pilots killed in Mig 21 Aircraft Crash
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/air-...report-3203690

I don't understand that every year or so, we lose our brave Pilots, yet the Air Force seems to be moving so slowly, and if I may say so, in a hugely disinterested manner, that it is nothing short of criminal.

I don't know the exact specifics, but from an ordinary layman's perspective, why can't we order Tejas in way more significant numbers than the paltry amount we have asked for right now?

Primarily it comes down to money and where the focus lies on how to spend it. The procurement budget is a sliver of the overall defence budget, IAF leadership and the decision makers in South Bloc essentially prioritise other areas. To a lesser extent I'd also say there's a production constraint at HAL (this is a bit chicken & egg - in the sense without a huge order book, they won't scale up production and without large capacity I think IAF are put off the low hanging procurement fruit, turning instead towards the high end of the matrix - think Rafale orders, AMCA, etc).

You also need impetus from decision makers. A lot of the big indigenisation push came under the late defence minister Parrikar, and to an extent the late CDS Rawat backing domestic projects too.

I have my criticisms of HAL and the Tejas programme but I do think at this point with attrition losses to the Mig-21 fleet, you might as well commit to the domestic option. I mean if the overseas interest in the Tejas really pans out (see dragracer's comment above, which by the way is hugely promising if true), then it's kinda damning if the IAF is still on the fence here. It's another chicken & egg situation in that the export orders would probably have a better chance if the customers saw a strong vote of confidence order from the IAF. I still think the impetus is on HAL, given their historic propensity to overpromise and underdeliver, to just scale up their capacity to meet a large scale order and then leave the ball in the IAFs court. Someone needs to make a move otherwise it's this interminable game of non-committal from both sides.

[dragracer567]

It's funny how this discussion comes up every time there is a Mig-21 crash. The Mig-21 was outdated 20 years ago (remember Rang De Basanti?), at this point it is practically vintage - even with the upgrades. I read somewhere that in the past 2 years, all but one IAF crashes have all been Mig-21s - let's please stop pretending it's a coincidence I seriously think it is time to ground the Mig-21 fleet even at a possible compromise of our defense capabilities. What angers me most is the unnecessary loss of valuable human life (+highly trained and experienced fighter pilots who can't be replaced) because politicians couldn't make a decision for the past 20 years. These are children, life partners, siblings, best friends etc. who gave their lives, not due to enemy action but political and bureaucratic ineptitude.

I think the primary reason the IAF doesn't want to commit to more Tejas aircraft is because of a culture of only accepting fully finished aircraft - a legacy of being used to imported aircraft that have already finished their development cycle in their respective home countries. As Ads11 points out, it's a chicken and egg situation but in most other countries - US, France, China etc, it's the Air Force of the respective countries that collaborate with the manufacturers to ensure that the final product is a success even if half-baked at first. Recently, when Boeing showcased tested the F/A-18s in India, it was flown by US Navy pilots, same as the French. Another problem is that the IAF wanted a perfect aircraft and the perfect one in their eyes is either the Tejas Mk-2 or the AMCA. The IAF would rather wait to induct these in large numbers rather than induct the Tejas Mk-1A that is available now in large numbers and end up without space to induct the newer aircraft. That said, the IAF's numbers are so anemic due to the decommissioning of a large number of various Migs in the last 20 years, that it could increase the Tejas Mk-1A order by another 100 (so total 183) and get 114 (total 150 then) more Rafales through MRFA just to replace these numbers, so there certainly is space for atleast 100 more Tejas Mk-1As. On top of this, the Tejas MK-2 and the AMCA have to arrive in time to replace the Jaguars, Mig-29s, Mirages and the early SU-30s. This is a tall order.

On the one hand, the IAF pilots are giving their lives while on the other hand the squadron numbers keep dropping - feels like a cruel practical joke.