[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by memascom

In 2010, an arrogant and abusive ex-AF PIC in Pakistan continuously berated the first officer throughout the flight which caused the latter to not intervene when the captain made wrong decisions during the approach. The result was a horrible crash with no survivors.
https://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=v4JX...eFlightChannel

You have the facts mixed up. The junior pilot i.e. the co-pilot was the one who was ex-Pakistan Air Force who was constantly berated by the older Captain who was, to best of my knowledge, a regular civilian career pilot. There is nothing like an Air Force pilot is a bad pilot or vice versa. All of them are humans and all of them can make a mistake on a bad day, operating under pressure, bad weather or bad attitude. Fortunately my industry dissects its mistakes and reviews the root causes and then works at a global scale to reduce the chances of error in a way that literally no other industry does. Unfortunately, like with a surgeon, in commercial flying a mistake could cause tragic loss of life.

[memascom]

I am sorry, thank you for correcting my post. I saw the video a long time ago and got the people mixed up. Should have re-checked before posting.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by TSIboy

Another thing I've seen in among my colleagues & other pilots is the macho attitude which a lot of us pilots more so those from these countries have.

This resonates with me on a different level. I am but a paying customer who genuinely loves aviation, and despite millions of miles travelled, I do not claim to be even a novice.

However, I find the attitude that some pilots display quite nauseating. There was a member here who claimed to pilot 777s and had 'neither the time nor the inclination' to explain themselves, and didn't 'give a damn' what others thought. I realise that most pilots won't have similar attitudes (AirbusCapt is one of my favourite posters), but I find it frightening that people with a God complex and a lack of accountability can be put in charge of hundreds of lives in a small metal tube ten kilometres up in the sky. If airlines don't already do it, they really should start screening using psych testing methods during hiring.

[AirbusCapt]

Friends, there is one thing I need to say. I am quite disappointed to see certain posts blaming 'airforce pilots' here. I will say that it doesn't matter if you are from the services or not, a pilot is a pilot. Besides airforce personnel have already been evaluated several times for their mental and psychological abilities or the lack of through out their career. Most ex airforce pilots who join civil aviation are in their late 40s/early 50s, have commanded units, are senior trainers in the airforce and come with a huge skill set of both flying and people management.
There may be a few rotten apple airforce pilots as there are a few rotten apple civil pilots, this is true in every profession.
I am a pilot who directly joined a big jet after my cpl, I have been lucky to do so, even luckier to have had several experienced and great teachers along the way, several of them having served long stints in our airforce.
Regarding this unfortunate crash, even though the investigation blames the pilots (rightly so considering the facts), I wish they hauled up the airline management on fatigue management, improper rostering which lead to the pressure to land as well as the AAI for the shoddy airport condition.

[fhdowntheline]

Originally Posted by AirbusCapt

Friends, there is one thing I need to say. I am quite disappointed to see certain posts blaming 'airforce pilots' here. Most ex airforce pilots who join civil aviation are in their late 40s/early 50s, have commanded units, are senior trainers in the airforce and come with a huge skill set of both flying and people management.
There may be a few rotten apple airforce pilots as there are a few rotten apple civil pilots, this is true in every profession.

Regarding this unfortunate crash, even though the investigation blames the pilots (rightly so considering the facts), I wish they hauled up the airline management on fatigue management, improper rostering which lead to the pressure to land as well as the AAI for the shoddy airport condition.

I agree. I dont think a professional Air Force like IAF would train pilots to be cavalier. In fact, I'd reckon more than ever, pilots have a very systemic approach rather than seat-of-the-pants with modern generation miliary equipment.
The bigger question is, can the Government impose some operational restrictions on AIX now that these damning details are out. Does it have the courage to do so at least in public interest?

[V.Narayan]

I'd like to weigh in here. As several have already spoken about the accident I won't offer my views in that department. In my first career I had the opportunity for many years to have hundreds of pilots flow through my fingers as my employees - fixed wing & rotary wing. This included pilots from about half a dozen nations {India, UK, NZ, South Africa, Nigeria, USA, Australia} and it included pilots from the Air forces of UK, NZ, Australia and India {Army, Navy and the IAF}. And my observations are over years, not a few incidents, anecdotes or hearsays. With that background my observations from over the years are-

- A pilot like a surgeon is in a profession where when you are on the job you are 101% mentally focused on the job. The stakes are so high not only for your passengers and machine but also for yourself personally. Too many of us watch Flight Channel's accident videos and assume that all pilots behave that way. Bear in mind accidents while flying are a microscopic minority and an accident is an opportunity to learn from mistakes and not to vilify an entire community of millions who otherwise deliver 110,000 safe flights each day only in the airline world.


- There is nothing like a 'rambo' pilot. There is nothing like 'flying with the seat of the pants' - not any more at least. With today's avionics, aircraft speeds and crowded skies you can neither fly by the seat of your pants or in a rambo fashion nor do you need to and with at least fly-by-wire aircraft nor will the machine allow you to.

- Some pilots like in all trades are arrogant or scratchy - no more or less than in other trades. Trust me I know. I employed some of them. Arrogance does not lead to weak CRM. It is the fault of the management if such a chap with weak CRM is permitted to continue flying. However I have never come across a pilot with a macho attitude. Some of us watch too many movies and videos is all I can say.

- We cannot compare pilot & cockpit culture in say India with say Pakistan or Colombia {in South America}.

- A pilot from an Air Force comes with a different basket of experiences. To some extent an unlearning phase has to be put in place as operating protocols are different in commercial flying. But they are not any more or less likely to make mistakes than a commercial career pilot.

- And finally the pilot is that last tip of a long arrow. A faulty landing often starts many hours or nautical miles or management decisions behind the actual point of impact.

The world of pilots and flying is one where thanks to social media every one is an expert!

[itwasntme]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

With today's avionics, aircraft speeds and crowded skies you can neither fly by the seat of your pants or in a rambo fashion nor do you need to and with at least fly-by-wire aircraft nor will the machine allow you to.

Well said! Off-topic (from the current theme), but curious to know your thoughts on the 9W332 B739 incident from 2009:
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ow/5290059.cms

[no_fear]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

We cannot compare pilot & cockpit culture in say India with say Pakistan or Colombia {in South America}

A bit off topic but I am curious why you highlighted Colombia. I have travelled extensively in Colombia and rest of central and south America and used Avianca Colombia for several flights. Found the airline and the pilots to be quite professional and competent. Would like to get an industry insider's perspective.

[A350XWB]

Originally Posted by AirbusCapt

I am quite disappointed to see certain posts blaming 'airforce pilots' here. I will say that it doesn't matter if you are from the services or not, a pilot is a pilot.

Absolutely. One name that immediately comes to mind is Sully Sullenberger. He was a ex-USAF pilot. What happened in the cockpit of US Airways Flight 1549 defines professionalism.

Sullenberger said later: "It was very quiet as we worked, my copilot Jeff Skiles and I. We were a team. But to have zero thrust coming out of those engines was shocking—the silence." Sullenberger was the last to leave the aircraft, after twice making sweeps through the cabin to make sure all passengers and crew had evacuated.

Originally Posted by AirbusCapt

4) there appeared to be a complete degradation of CRM , almost a single pilot flight deck.
The classic decision making checklist for any failure is as follows:
1) is my aircraft safe?
2) safety of my pax, crew and cargo
3) aircraft limitations
4) company SOP and requirements
5) fuel saving
I guess the captain here directly went for point 4 and disregarded everything else.

Agree with the above. There might be secondary reasons which influenced that decision making. I don't know how AIX reacts in case of a diversion, but I've heard that some airlines are not so kind.
I have a few other doubts. Even as we tell about Mangalore and Calicut being dangerous airports, they are not the most dangerous airports in the world, which sees regular traffic. No idea about Mangalore, but Calicut used to see regular wide-body service from Saudia, Air India and Emirates, before the COVID crisis. And even when we check the accident history of the airport, all incidents happened to airlines based out of India. I know that conditions are different from one landing/take-off to another, but question remains on how other airlines are managing to operate without incidents from this airport? After the Mangalore crash, I thought that there were some strong recommendations provided, especially regarding changes in SOP to these airports and CRM. Is there a system in place to ensure that the lessons learnt from an accident doesn't just remain on paper?

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by itwasntme

Well said! Off-topic (from the current theme), but curious to know your thoughts on the 9W332 B739 incident from 2009:
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ow/5290059.cms

Deeply deeply and shockingly incorrect and dangerous. If this had happened on my watch I'd walk that check pilot home with some very serious reporting to DGCA. Today these checks and training are done on a simulator. Years or decades ago it was done on a live training flight without passengers. And even then the pilot being tested was informed before hand of the kind of system failures {e.g. engine out} he would be tested on and that it would occur on say the take-off. To pull this as a surprise wit h180 passengers is criminal. I do not know what happened to that check johnny but I do know, in my ex-professional capacity and direct experience, that Jet Airways was not as tightly run on technical issues as Indigo or Vistara. And DGCA those days was a lot worse than today.

Originally Posted by no_fear

A bit off topic but I am curious why you highlighted Colombia. I have travelled extensively in Colombia and rest of central and south America and used Avianca Colombia for several flights. Found the airline and the pilots to be quite professional and competent. Would like to get an industry insider's perspective.

Thank you for your question. I highlighted Colombia only as an example. I could have picked anyone of 25 other countries across Africa and Latin America. A national flag carrier is only one segment of aviation in a market. Regional carriers, charter operators and other general aviation are in the mix too. Generally speaking when operating into Latin America one has to be extra careful outside the big 12 odd cities and be well prepped on homework at all levels, flying, ATC communication, ground support etc. Hope this clarifies

[McLaren Rulez]

Mentour Pilot, a truly excellent YouTuber, analyses the crash

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqZlKUO8Mmc

[libranof1987]

A recommendation off of the investigation into the Kozhikode crash.

Acting on the recommendations of a sub-committee constituted after the Air India Express accident in Kozhikode in August 2020, the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) has sent an advisory to all airlines to implement a child restraint system (CRS) to protect infants while onboard.

According to DGCA, CRS is a device, other than a seat belt, that is designed specifically to protect and restrain an infant or child during all phases of flight. It typically has an internal harness and belt combination. The device needs to interface with the aircraft seat.

This includes devices that are secured using the aircraft seat belt as well as systems that secure the device to the aircraft seat.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india...351440059.html