[itwasntme]

Originally Posted by vevck

Not sure why IAF's C-17 Globemaster wasn't pressed into service for transporting the payload. The C-17 Globemasters can carry 75 tons in a single sortie. The aircraft, weighing over 128 tonnes and having a wingspan of 52 m can land at any Advanced Landing Ground (ALG).

https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-She...obemaster-iii/

No way IAF is going to 'rent' out their gleaming new Globemasters unless it is a national security matter.

[audioholic]

I have these two curiosities with respect to the pullers being used. Would be glad if someone can sort it out:
1. When multiple pullers are used, like one at the rear and front, or two pullers at front how are they synchronized? Do the drivers manually need to do this or is there some manufacturer or third party solution to this?
2. What makes the powertrain of these pullers? I have seen a few options from Volvo with a ~500HP output, with crawler gears and I shift AMT. But wont a clutch based system wear out in no time? I imagined some sort of fluid coupling to exist.
3. When hydraulic trailers are used arent these powered axles? Where is the power derived from? And how is this synchronized with the puller?

[Mad Monkey]

I am not sure about how accuracy of the timeline that is being highlighted by the Media .

What i can assume is that ISRO must have issued a tender/reverse bidding for purchasing an autoclave and that would have also put delivery till ISRO in the scope of the Manufacturer/ Supplier .

The manufacturer/Supplier seems to have gone with the cheapest transporter they could find without verifying experience or capability to reduce their over all cost price and be competitive in the bidding process.

Ideally ISRO should have specified the methodology and timeline for transportation instead of trying to reduce the workload of their procurement department .

TIME is MONEY and the Heavy Lift business is about TIME

As pointed out by AriesSonu the transporter has used a Lowbed trailer instead of hydraulic axles/trailer which have major steering and suspension compensation limitations . Also hydraulic trailers allow flexibility in the number of axles which results in much lower axle loads and that allows less ground preparation work and a more direct route to the final destination .

Originally Posted by ariesonu

Some vocabulary, that we use for such cargoes are:
Li-Lo = Lift-ON & Lift-Off: This is when cargo is LIFTED using cranes & loaded/unloaded on/from the ships

Ro-Ro: Roll-ON & Roll-OFF: When cargo is rolled using SPMT (Self-propelled Module Trailer) or Multi-axle trailer, as shown in my previous post. Mostly such method is used for loading cargo on Barges OR Car-Carrier ships, which have dedicated RAMP for such things.

Si-So: Slide-ON & Slide-OFF: When cargo is SLID-ON to the trailer or SLID-OFF from the hydraulic trailer. We cannot & should not do this from low-bed trucks.

Regards-Sonu

PS: Cost of one day hire of a 8 axle hydraulic-trailer is about 25-30K per day.

Apologies for being a nitpicker but ;

Lift-on/lift-off or LoLo are mostly cargo ships with on-board cranes to load and unload cargo and are also termed geared vessels.

Si-So: Slide-ON & Slide-OFF is not a term i am familiar with. I am assuming you are referring to when the cargo is loaded/unloaded onto stools using the trailers hydraulic suspension . The same can also be done for not hydraulic trailers using externaly positioned hydraulic jacks placed on stools .

8 axle hydraulic-trailer for about 25-30K per day is ridiculously Low. i am Assuming you are referring here to local manufactured Tratecs.

Originally Posted by abhaysinha58

I work on RORO vessels and what I know is our vessels can handle cargo of 7 meters height and 12 meters width and the ramps can take 500 Tonne of weight. The cargo is loaded on a rolling platform called Mafi and loaded on board. I'm not sure of port restrictions and exact dimensions but looking at the equipment it could have been shipped by sea.

I am assuming the type of RORO vessel you are referring to are also sometimes called car carriers or multi deck Bulk carriers with RORO ramps .
These type of vessels make loading/unloading with RORO type cargo very easy and economical but are not always suitable for ODC/SODC and specifically very Heavy oversized cargo .

There can be a few Constraint's like the ramp angle with regards to the draft and tide variation at the port
The square meter capacity of the ramp and Deck .
Access to the stowage position .

This cargo is to small and light for a dedicated dumb barge operation and dedicated liner operation wouldn't be economical .

An experienced professional heavy lift transport company could have easily accomplished this task easily in less than a month not considering the lock-down .

[ariesonu]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

If I may ask, why Kolaghat and not Haldia? Haldia would have had all necessary infrastructure. And is just 50 Km from Kolaghat. And with proper road connectivity. Sutripta

Hi Sutripta,

At Haldia, they cannot "BEACH" a barge to do RO-RO oeprations. Most Heavy-Lift companies, prefer RO-RO, operations over LI-LO.
LI-LO requires use of cranes, lifting gears, special port permissions and will involve jetty/berth costs etc. Also LI-LO is much more risky because many such cargoes have off-centered Center-Of-Gravity (COG) and hence may require spreaders, longer & shorter wire slings, sometimes have multiple cranes doing "TANDEM" operations - which increases the RISK to multi-folds.

Since these are always loaded on dumb (flat-bottom) barges for inland waterways or coastal voyages, it is easier for them to create temporary jetty at Kolaghat & do RO-RO operation. Also the local authorities at Kolaghat understand the dynamics of these movements and leave it to expertise of these logistics companies.

In fact this practice is PREFERRED all over the world.

Originally Posted by vevck

Not sure why IAF's C-17 Globemaster wasn't pressed into service for transporting the payload. The C-17 Globemasters can carry 75 tons in a single sortie. The aircraft, weighing over 128 tonnes and having a wingspan of 52 m can land at any Advanced Landing Ground (ALG).

If you look at the LINK provided in my previous post, you will realize the volumes of such movements in India. Hence using AIR route is not feasible, even if shipment is for a Govt. agency. Also costs will be prohibitive and logistics is one sector, where everyone becomes penny wise pound foolish.

Take an example of this morning, when a certain entity was contemplating to send 80 tons boiler (with off-centered COG) on a Low-Bed trailer whose carrying capacity is capped at 55 MT on its registration book. After almost half a day's arguments & convincing they have agreed to hire an 8 Axle hydraulic trailer.
Now pls note that if the intended transit had been done on low-bed trailer, it would have costed about 8.5 lakhs but the hydraulic axle is going to cost them about 13.5 Lakhs. For mere 5 lakhs saving, they were ready to put this 28 odd crores (ODC as well as Heavy) cargo at risk. Not even realizing that the movement is happening in monsoons, when unknown risks are abound.

Originally Posted by audioholic

I have these two curiosities with respect to the pullers being used. Would be glad if someone can sort it out:

1. When multiple pullers are used, like one at the rear and front, or two pullers at front how are they synchronized? Do the drivers manually need to do this or is there some manufacturer or third party solution to this?

Ans.: Every Puller has a loadmeter fitted on dash, that gives the pulled weight in Kn on screen. The driver keeps driving but a tech-escort keeps the other drivers aligned. However most drivers are so much in sync by themselves that they have an unknown "CONNECTION" among themselves. Even we leave it their expertise on turn angles & over-draws.

2. What makes the powertrain of these pullers? I have seen a few options from Volvo with a ~500HP output, with crawler gears and I shift AMT. But wont a clutch based system wear out in no time? I imagined some sort of fluid coupling to exist.

Ans: This shall interest you:
https://www.volvotrucks.in/en-in/tru...x4-puller.html

3. When hydraulic trailers are used arent these powered axles? Where is the power derived from? And how is this synchronized with the puller?

Ans.: Nope, the hydraulic axles are NOT powered, they require a PULLER for that. However every hydraulic trailer does have a hydraulic machine at one end, which maintains pressure on hydraulic-axles so that the bed remains FLAT even when tyres are going over bumps & pots.
The powered hydraulic-axles are called SPMT (Self Propelled Module Trailer/Transporter) and are like wired remote control toy. The biggest combination of multiple SPMT's known to me compromised of 800 axles.
https://www.mammoet.com/equipment/tr...nsporter/spmt/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-p...ar_transporter

Regards-Sonu

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by ariesonu

Also LI-LO is much more risky because many such cargoes have off-centered Center-Of-Gravity (COG)

How is the off centre COG handled on the barge? Counterweights?

RORO - the hydraulic pallets (layman's description) are also loaded onto the barge?

A year back there was an attempt to reintroduce transport to Assam through Bangladesh. Three vessels IIRC. Did not go well primarily because of draft problems.

Sutripta

[guru_max]

Originally Posted by ariesonu

That is when the smallest of Brahmaputra tributaries are full of water & we can make use of them to beach the barges as close as possible to the destination in Assam or other N.E. states.
So as we talk, four of such units are on their way from Kolaghat, right now. (see pic below)

I am very curious about your operation to Silchar via water. Does these barges enter the delta of Jamuna into Bangladesh. then branch off into Barak river and onto Silchar? This is quite amazing since Barak river is not exactly wide, around 200 metres in width. And don't these operations get affected by the floods in Bhramaputra every year, which i assume will have effects in downsteam Jamuna too.

[vharihar]

I also don't buy the cargo weight or height reasons if the reference is being made to the completed highway sections. I have seen equally large cargo being ferried on Indian highways.

The only reason I can buy, is if there are un-negotiable diversions along the way due to highway construction work in progress. I did a Bangalore - Mumbai trip recently (see https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/route...ml#post4836751 (Bangalore - Pune - Mumbai : Route updates & Eateries)), and saw quite a few short diversions due to active 6-lane work in progress esp on the Chitradurga - Hubli stretch (especially at overpasses under construction); and these could well be un-negotiable for large cargo (from width perspective as well as road surface perspective as well as possibly height/overhead wires perspective)

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[abhaysinha58]

Originally Posted by Mad Monkey

I am assuming the type of RORO vessel you are referring to are also sometimes called car carriers or multi deck Bulk carriers with RORO ramps .

Just to give you an idea on RORO Cargo capabilities:

https://youtu.be/0lmjgb3waj8

As for Ramp angles, they can be altered depending on draft and change in tide and depending on cargo requirement.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

How is the off centre COG handled on the barge? Counterweights?

If it floats, of course basic stability must be maintained. Typically on these sort of heavy lift jobs, you need to calculate a variety of loading conditions and their impact on COG. It is not just when it is loading. What happens to your COG when loading is equally important. The COG will shift continuously and might need continuously compensating.

For those interested; a simple, yet pretty comprehensive overview of the maths behind stability on a barge.

http://www.heavyliftspecialist.com/F...guidelines.pdf

Large barges, to my knowledge have at least ballast tanks. They are used to maintain COG, but are also used to keep the barge level during loading and unloading operations.

Just about all ships have ballast tanks of course. Ships with crane, let alone heavy lift type of capability tend to have sophisticated ballast tanks. Relatively short tanks, on the outer edge of the hull and pretty high too. They might have a number of these tanks 2-5 along the length of the hull.

One of the very first ships I sailed on as an engineer had a crane that could lift considerable loads. We had an automatic ballast system. The crane operations would slow down to match the speed at which the ballast system would pump water port/SB, vv. An absolutely massive pump to pump the water back and forth.

Technically I guess you can use counterweights, but it present at least two challenges I would say. How do you get them inside the barge? (You don’t want them on deck!) and it is very cumbersome to shift them around.

Although I seem to recall I have seen something like a mechanically moved counterweight on a ship a long time ago.

Would be interested to hear what the real experts have to say.

Here an interesting example where things go wrong on a barge (In the Netherlands some years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j83Euldj75I

Jeroen

[Sutripta]

^^^
Crane mishaps (esp when multiple units are involved) are regular enough, as are small boat capsizes where for whatever reason passengers rush to oneside to see something. Together, now that's unusual!

The 'dumb barges' I've seen (inland waterways only) seem to be nothing more than pontoons. Certainly these will have ballast tanks, but a sophisticated trimming system - doubtful.

Let alone ballast tanks, for tankers, loading/ unloading is a fairly sophisticated process.

Waiting for the experts to chip in.

Sutripta

[ariesonu]

A pictorial of barge operations

Barge beaching





Preparing "RAMP" to/from barge




Approach RAMP as seen from Barge-end


Barge preparations for loading 210 & 130 Ton Transformers


First UNIT being RO-RO'ed on to barge



First UNIT placed on pedestals & secured - The trailer has been removed.



Second UNIT approaching




Puller approaching PEDESTALS for placing secund UNIT


Rear Puller keeping the trailer in straight line - between pedestals


Second unit placed on pedestals & secured


Pedestals & lashings



Ready for sailing



Desktop workings:
Lashing Calculations


Load-out plan


Regards.

[Sutripta]

^^^
The front puller remains on the barge, or the barge is turned around, and the puller driven off?

The vertical wheeled load bed - how much of vertical travel is possible?

Sutripta

[Jeroen]

thanks for that detailled information.
Couple of more questions. If you operate under Noble Denton rules there is a whole set of documentation required to proof and check all safety aspects are covered, including stability requirements.

Anything you can share on the stability calculations?

Are these barges ballasted to start with? How about when you move the load from the ramp onto the barge. How do you keep the deck flat enough for the load to moved onto it. Or does it simply not move much. Its a relative large and wide barge I guess.

Thanks, very interesting.

Let me share my one personal experience with a heavy load.

In the late 80s I worked for a small Dutch/American company and we specialised in oil and gas metering fiscal custody transfer system. The measurement system were often build on on what we called large skids. So they could be transported easily. We had a huge contract to provide an oil custody transfer system for the Rabbi Oil field in Gabon. Operated by Shell at the time. It was the largest we ever build. Four parallel measuring streets as we called it, each with its own flow turbine meter, pressure, temperature, density sensors, It has a Brooks Instrument calibration unit build in as well, which was massive too. In all it was not that heavy but it was very wide.

So I needed to get specialist to help out, bringing it from our subcontractor factory to Rotterdam harbour. We contracted out to Stoof/Mamoet at the time. They came with two large hydraulic cranes, a low loader and the necessary paper work and a police escort.

My dad at the time was a lawyer, specialising in international transport. I knew he was the author of the Stoof/Mamoet terms and conditions. So I had him check our supply contract to Shell versus the Stoof/Mamoet T&Cs.

Our delivery condition was FOB, Free on Board. This is what my dad told me.

Make sure you are present when they start loading the skid onto the ship. If it drops from the crane here is what is relevant.

If it drops and falls into the ships hold, you’re good. Even if they drop it and it lands on the free boards of the ship, you’re good. That will be considered a FOB delivery. It’s their responsibility and liability from there on.

BUT, if it falls in between the ship and the pier, or on the pier, its still yours!

IF it falls from the crane, initially lands or hits the ship and still falls of the ship onto the pier, it is becoming a bit questionable. But you might make a case that you had met your FOB delivery conditions as it hit the ship before hitting the pier!

Oh well, ask a lawyer!

Nothing happened, these guys were real experts. But it was a cool experience.

I got to drive along with one of their escort vehicles that drove ahead of the low loader. Interesting to see how my driver, the driver of the low loader and the two motor cops talked over the radio. It went so smoothly, very experienced. a complete non event, just another job for them.

Jeroen

[Mad Monkey]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Are these barges ballasted to start with? How about when you move the load from the ramp onto the barge. How do you keep the deck flat enough for the load to moved onto it. Or does it simply not move much. Its a relative large and wide barge I guess.

It seems here they have beached the barge and i say that due to the absence of Ballast Pumps in the picture . Looks like the operation is being carried out on a river so the bed should mostly be soft clay and will not damage the bottom of the barge .I dont think this particular barge has ballastable tanks ..

Originally Posted by Jeroen

So I needed to get specialist to help out, bringing it from our subcontractor factory to Rotterdam harbour. We contracted out to Stoof/Mamoet at the time. They came with two large hydraulic cranes, a low loader and the necessary paper work and a police escort.

My dad at the time was a lawyer, specialising in international transport. I knew he was the author of the Stoof/Mamoet terms and conditions. So I had him check our supply contract to Shell versus the Stoof/Mamoet T&Cs.

Jeroen

When i was in University during my freshman Summer break i got the opportunity to work at Mammoet in schiedam .This was just after the Mammoet and Van Seumeran merger . Got a chance to experience most of the departments from Stores , engineering to project sales .

Originally Posted by Sutripta

^^^
The front puller remains on the barge, or the barge is turned around, and the puller driven off?

The vertical wheeled load bed - how much of vertical travel is possible?

Sutripta

Ideally they should have removed the front(pulling) prime mover just before crossing the steel plate/ramp and only used the rear prime mover to push onto the barge . Then Lower the axles (hydraulically) transfer the load onto the stool and reverse the trailers off the barge .

The trailers shown in the picture are Tratec and unfortunately I am not that familiar with them .Commonly worldwide hydraulic axles have a compensation of ±300mm .

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Mad Monkey

When i was in University during my freshman Summer break i got the opportunity to work at Mammoet in schiedam .This was just after the Mammoet and Van Seumeran merger . Got a chance to experience most of the departments from Stores , engineering to project sales .

Nice, I hope you enjoyed it, close to Rotterdam it is an interesting and lovel, lively little town. Lots to see and do.

Both my boys live in Schiedam! And I know the Mamoet HQ well, used to cycle past them whenever I went underneath the cycle tunnel. It’s an interesting design, depicting a ships bolder.

And in true Mamoet fashion it was transported on a barge to its current position!

https://www.dutchengineering.nl/Nede.../pm/83/ms/114/

Both Stoof and van Seumeren were traditional family companies originally. Stoof from early on specialised in heavy lifting. In those early days they designed their own cranes. No hydraulic cranes, Just a 100-150 meter boom. Would be put together horizontally in section and they would pull it up, under its own power. Very impressive. My dad was invited to witness a few demo’s/ trial and I came along when I was about 10-12 years old.

Van Seumeren, originally was just road transport and they began to specialise in heaven haulage over time. Eventually via several mergers and acquisition they became all one under the name Mamoet. Mamoet itself was split into separate parts again over the years, the marine division being one.

Mamoet is most known for it’s salvage of the Kursk of course. In those days the company front man was Frans van Seumeren. He got a lot of PR for Mamoet out of this salvage job. Truth be told, it was a huge risk for them. They had zero experience with salvage. The number one salvage company in the world Smit Tak (for whom I worked) would not touch it on the condition the Russian demanded.

But Frans managed to sign a contract. All the tricky salvage work, including the design of the salvage and a lot of the special equipement came from Smit Tak. He subcontracted a lot out.

Jeroen