[GTO]

Guys,

Very important to note that all of them were senior citizens. Please do take care of your parents / grand-parents as the heat can be brutal for them. A friend's young dad (51 years old) left for work in a black & yellow taxi as his driver hadn't showed up. 1 hour later, the heat got to him and he died.

Best for them not to travel in the summer months and if they do, it should be either in an air-conditioned vehicle or in the evening / night.

[boniver]

Originally Posted by GTO

Very important to note that all of them were senior citizens. Please do take care of your parents / grand-parents as the heat can be brutal for them. A friend's young dad (51 years old) left for work in a black & yellow taxi as his driver hadn't showed up. 1 hour later, the heat got to him and he died.

My condolences to your friend's family.

The heat has been unbearable this summer. My dad has been going to work only 2 days in a week, and in some cases only 1 day. The rest of the time he's staying at home in the AC. This is the first time I'm seeing this happen, since he usually works even on Saturdays. He's old (58), but physically pretty fit and doesn't look his age, so I never even realized how difficult it must be for him.

Also, it's not just senior citizens. Yesterday, I had an important exam so I took a local train at 12pm (absolutely no parking available near the exam centre). The train wasn't crowded at all, yet I was feeling extremely uncomfortable due to the heat. I was wearing a thin rag of a t-shirt, and it was completely soaked in sweat by the time I got off 45 minutes later. It is extremely important to carry an umbrella, a bottle of water (I carry two), a handkerchief, and shades. Most importantly, don't step out during the day unless it is absolutely necessary. The heat this time is absolutely mad. Will have to go for my next paper today, and I'm already dreading the journey to the exam centre.

[V.Narayan]

This is the hottest summer, in Delhi, by far since 1998. My work required, amongst other weather matters, to be on the tarmac rain, sun or shade for extended periods. Some tips, other than the ones already stated about drinking water.

1. Wear a cap or hat. Wear lose clothes so evaporation of sweat can cool the body.
2. Other than water also drink items like nimbu Paani, coconut water to refill the salts lost through sweat.
3. When moving from 40° to an air-conditioned room give your body time to adjust by waiting a few minutes in a shady but non-airconditioned room. People with blood pressure, heart ailments and respiratory problems are hard hit by this thermal shock especially if it happens several times in a day .

The human body's ability to generate warmth internally is far greater than its ability to cool itself. Once the ambient temperature gets beyond 40° centigrade our system struggles to hold the internal temperature at 37°. And this weakens noticeably after 65 years of age.

Boniver, my friend, at 58 your Dad is a young middle aged man - not old. On Team BHP old age starts when you stop driving. :-)

[srishiva]

This could be more due to heat than anything to do with Railways. I was seeing that in North, the minimum temperature was above maximum temperature in Bengaluru :( Very unfortunate incident. The temperature inside the coach could have been high too with nothing cooling the inside. Not even wind.

Dry heat is really deceptive. People not used to the climate might not take enough precautions. Not sure when all public transport will be climate controlled in our country. The reason govts operate some services is to make sure citizens are given good service irrespective of profit motives.

[libranof1987]

Terrible indeed. Old age and unpreparedness for the harsh dry heat would have contributed no doubt, especially when the "loo" hits the body as the train travels at speed.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Can the experts opine on how much actual cost does air conditioning add to a passenger railway operation. Considering that there are so many factor inputs that make up the total fully loaded cost of rail operation it seems the extra energy cost of air-conditioning 15 passenger carriages seems minor in comparison. If our railways had been privatized would open air carriages still be in use.

To be honest, getting every coach on every train in the country (that number itself must be in lakhs?) should be way lower on the Railways' priority. Very unfortunately, we have an ageing infrastructure: be it bridges or tracks that the Railways are terribly lagging in modernizing. Even more unfortunately, any proposal to increase fares to help the Railways cope up with the urgency necessary to modernize the infrastructure has historically been met with protests and a quick withdrawal.

Imagine the mayhem if the Railways are privatized; safe to say, the country will come to a grinding halt.

Credit where it's due: the Railways have takes massive strides: be it introduction of new and better trains or IT adoption.

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Can the experts opine on how much actual cost does air conditioning add to a passenger railway operation. Considering that there are so many factor inputs that make up the total fully loaded cost of rail operation it seems the extra energy cost of air-conditioning 15 passenger carriages seems minor in comparison. If our railways had been privatised would open air carriages still be in use.

While this may not be a popular statement to make but the arrangement of our railway carriages is a reflection of a fuedal outlook - air-con for the better off and natural ventilation for the hoi-polloi.

My prayers for the unfortunate deceased.

Originally Posted by ani_meher

The difference between AC and non-AC class is significant, it costs some 3-4 times more than sleeper coach for for third AC. So economically challenged will always prefer SL class.

There is more to it than the cost aspect.
What V.Narayan says is sensible that in the total capex cost of setting up rail infra, tracks, basic bogeys, etc. the cost of adding air conditioning is perhaps peanuts.
Similarly in terms of opex the energy/power required for locomotion would be far greater than that required for air conditioning.

However when it comes to pricing, the non-AC coaches are "subsidized heavily" compared to AC ones. Which, I believe, makes all the difference - it is not the carry over from feudal outlook - but it is a way of providing subsidized transportation more comfortable than road.

If all are AC coaches - this segregation of subsidization vs market price will become extremely difficult and also prone to lot of black marketing.

[silvercloud]

This is very depressing on many levels; Death due to heat, that too on a moving train with multiple ventilation points. (~36 windows and 4 doors for 72 people) is hard to digest.

I really hope it wasn't due to overcrowding on the said "reserved" Sleeper coaches. Only goes to show that the Indian railways is woefully under-equipped to handle volumes (legit or otherwise) on such routes. Reserved or unreserved, no one deserves to travel in overcrowded conditions in a metal tube under the scorching sun.

With highways development being planned + a large capex expenditure proposed in 2019 budget; hope issue of overcrowding goes down.

[Thermodynamics]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Can the experts opine on how much actual cost does air conditioning add to a passenger railway operation. Considering that there are so many factor inputs that make up the total fully loaded cost of rail operation it seems the extra energy cost of air-conditioning 15 passenger carriages seems minor in comparison. If our railways had been privatised would open air carriages still be in use.

There is a wealth of information elsewhere about developments in coach building and a nice report below
IRElectricalDirectorate.pdf

Long story short, LHB coaches are the way to go, we would see more LHBs in future, first in premium trains such as Shatabdi and then all common trains will be redesigned accordingly. In general, the German designed LHBs have Air-con but Indian railway is planning to customize LHBs without Air-con for the low cost class.

It may not be significant when it comes to the cost of Air-Con as compared to overall cost of coach building, but A/C coaches generally have better interiors, seats etc., which may result ~ 25 % higher CAPEX than a non-AC coach. The additional energy cost is not very high as compared to total energy required to pull the coach. Furthermore, if electrification of lines are completed we would further save about 40% energy as compared to present Diesel locos.

Originally Posted by alpha1

However when it comes to pricing, the non-AC coaches are "subsidized heavily" compared to AC ones. Which, I believe, makes all the difference - it is not the carry over from feudal outlook - but it is a way of providing subsidized transportation more comfortable than road.

If all are AC coaches - this segregation of subsidization vs market price will become extremely difficult and also prone to lot of black marketing.

I think, the differentiation can still be managed with A/C as we see in European trains. Albeit A/C being standard they still have economy, first class etc. Considering the kind of climate we have in our country especially during extreme summers and extreme winters, we need to pitch A/C as basic necessity rather than Luxury, regardless whether it is a passenger cabin or a freight train driver/guard cabin.

[Sutripta]

In the Gandhian/ Nehruian thinking AC = luxury/ sin.
Still continues. GST for ACs is 28 %.

[RaghuVis]

This news hit too close to my heart when i read it yesterday. Deepest condolences to the family. I can imagine what goes through them.

It was May 05 1996. My Uncle, Aunt, my two cousins and my Naani boarded train to Trichur, Kerala from Delhi in same train that changed our lives forever. It was the day I lost my Naani in exact same way in Bhopal, the next station after Jhansi.

Being a government employee, My uncle usually gets allowance every two years to travel in AC compartment. They had just visited us in 1995 utilizing that. Suddenly my Upanayanam (Holy Thread Ceremony, a Hindu Ritual) was fixed in 1996 and my Naani insisted that she attend that function. Since AC tickets for 3 adults and 2 kids were a bit too much in those days, they reluctantly chose to travel in sleeper class. While boarding itself, it was a very hot day. Those days they used to bring water cooler (3-5ltr) and used to fill it in big stations. Since they use to travel in AC coach, they used to fill it only on second day of the journey, so they had no idea about water filling facilities when they reached Agra, the next big station where train stops for more than 5 minutes. Also my uncle has Polio issue in one of his legs so he cannot run/walk fast. They all were very tired/thirsty/exhausted in train already and by the time train left Jhansi, she had suffered heat stroke and had become pale. Some of the fellow passengers noticed and shouted to get help of fellow passengers who could also a doctor. By the time he came and checked she had already passed away. Just like that. She could not even drink a drop of water at her last moment. My Uncle, his family and my Naani's mortal remains were taken out from train in Bhopal. Body was kept in one corner of station along with my Uncle and his family and train continued it's journey towards my hometown, without her. Even now when i write this, my eyes are all welled up.

The real tragedy/horror however had just started for my uncle at Bhopal. I do not wish to elaborate further as to what happened and how Police and Railways "helped". It's just too personal. Let me just say, things are much improved now, be it railways, police or fellow humans. We are fortunate that my uncle, aunt and my cousins are all in good health now though it took them years to put that trauma behind them and that all are in one single piece.

PS: My Nanny's mortal remains reached Delhi after close to 48 hours in a rice bag in the boot of an Ambassador car and was cremated thereafter(well, whatever remained that is).

PPS: I always tell my cousin he should write a book about that fateful 48 hours and the horrors they had to endure. I guarantee you it would be a best-seller thriller!

God I miss her!

[landcruiser123]

My prayers are with the family of the deceased. Such a thing should have NEVER happened.

This incident shows how unprepared Indian trains are to handle an emergency. While I think having all AC is a long time away, Indian railways need to improve its ventilation in the second class to ensure such incidents aren't repeated. Also, stricter penalties should be implemented for ticketless traveling or 'hopping' and enforcement should follow.

Our socialist mindset aside, we're all being keyboard warriors here- the truth is that <5% of the population can afford an AC train ticket. Rather than blaming the trains not having ACs, I think it is law enforcement that matters- ticketless traveling should be discouraged to prevent overcrowding.

Originally Posted by Latheesh

SL class need seat reservation, right? How does it gets overcrowded?

In central and North India, local people who travel from town to town overcrowd the SL class. It is not strange to see 10 people sitting for space meant for 6.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

... it seems the extra energy cost of air-conditioning 15 passenger carriages seems minor in comparison.

Truw that. But we're talking about changing decades of the infrastructure (coaches) and the thought of having non-AC coaches for the common man and AC only for rich people.

Originally Posted by Sutripta

In the Gandhian/ Nehruian thinking AC = luxury/ sin.
Still continues. GST for ACs is 28 %.

I think we've to shed the socialist image. Global warming has caught up. One can barely survive Bangalore summers without an AC.

[Trojan]

It was very depressing and a calamity waiting to happen given the weather conditions.

There was a time when Sleeper coaches was the norm, at present in these conditions it is suicidal. Overcrowding and adjustment are common, heck you see that in 3AC as well, less frequency of trains, less number of trains, too many people - where can they go?

Improving and rebuilding infrastructure should be the top priority - and I certainly don't understand why should that translate to higher fares? Especially when one does not even get the bare minimum agreed comfort and space with the current fare.

More trains are needed, the govt will certainly earn the additional revenue with the ticket sales so ROI is certain - whats the challenge - investment.
An express train costs only around 50Cr (approx cost from Google) but... alas trains don't vote.

This route from Agra to Jhansi crosses the Chambal region with its harsh topography and temperatures are searing H O T this side. That the landscape is barren would be an understatement.

Another such route is the Bhopal - Khajuraho Mahamana express train, the entire route of this train lacks even basic facilities like water and shade leave alone food.

Wonder when will we start taking climate change seriously, what constituted of forests and farms have been replaced by concrete jungles, mines and industries. We are surely trying our level best to wipe ourselves out and succeeding too.

Wonder what is the health of the passengers who survive this ordeal (read general class) they are not even treated like citizens, herded inside the train by GRP wielding sticks using them at hapless individuals who just want a seat to get home.

Maybe the next few days the trains will be the focal point of all our news channels.

[su1978]

Feel extremely sorry for the departed souls. May they rest in peace.

There are many issues that we are discussing here. What i could figure out from the article is railways infrastructure, entry of unauthorized persons in reserved coaches, uninformed senior citizens about oppressive heat conditions in north etc. The tragedy is a combined effect all these factors put together.

If railways cannot convert all their non-air-conditioned coaches to air-conditioned ones, then like the way railways have water sprinklers on stations, they can very well have a similar type of setup for coaches as well. That would at-least help keep temperatures in control.

Second point is to control the entry of unauthorized persons in reserved coaches. For this, they can have RPF officials in every coach. Third point is of uninformed senior citizens which the tour operator should have informed.

Last week my father, 64, had a ticket of 3-tier while on a return journey from Patna. But when the train pulled into the platform, this particular bogie was replaced by a sleeper stating the reason as technical issue. There was an option of either to get a refund or travel by sleeper coach. He had no other option. Add to that the fact that trains travelling towards Delhi from east are compulsorily delayed. Only exception is Rajdhani. Thank god for his strong genes and his internal strength that he reached safe and sound. But that also raises a question about the mismanagement at railways end. What would have been the condition of someone who is either a patient or is not used to travelling by sleeper coaches.

It's for all these reasons that i have completely stopped using trains for my longest journeys even. My companion on such long route is my trusted mobilio for past 4 years and prior to it, it used to by my Ritz. If there is a group of 4 people who are travelling from Delhi-Patna, then the costing is lesser than the cost of travelling through 3-tier Rajdhani express. My point to point travel time is approximately similar.

[Rahul Rao]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Can the experts opine on how much actual cost does air conditioning add to a passenger railway operation. Considering that there are so many factor inputs that make up the total fully loaded cost of rail operation it seems the extra energy cost of air-conditioning 15 passenger carriages seems minor in comparison. If our railways had been privatised would open air carriages still be in use.

I am in the Air-Conditioning industry and also have worked in Bus and Rail Coach Ac manufacturing company many years ago.
A railway coach needs about 160 KW balancing power to maintain its mps of 110kph. The electrical load from Fan and internal lights in a non Ac coach are 4.5 kw, while for an Ac coach they vary from 6kw to 20 kw depending on number of compressors engaged, and ambient temperature.
Cost wise the transfer cost per coach is about 1.7 Cr for N Ac coach and 1.9 Cr for Ac coach.
Open windows in N Ac coaches also add to aerodynamic drag which is not calculated by me.

Considering both these facts operational cost difference between Ac and N Ac coach should be 20%. We should also consider that Ac coaches have one bay less, so seat about 10% less passengers as compared to N Ac coaches. This should push up per seat cost by less than 35%.
The govt mindset is what makes ac tickets costly.
Also note that SL class in trains only recovers about 45% of real ticket cost where as the AC3 class is the only profit generating class for IR.


Rahul

[mpksuhas]

Originally Posted by paragsachania

I am even imagining the working conditions of the Loco Pilots who also have to bear oven like conditions inside the cabins.

Add to that, they do not have a restroom even.