[torquecurve]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

Defence sales is a murky world.


Why would IAF place an order for Akash SAM system then? I think Firstpost article is a propaganda piece placed either by Russian or Israeli defence companies.

Interestingly this article came in about 2-3 days after a similar insinuation of the Spike/ Spike ER ATGM where it was said that it would help the army to go with a 4th gen ATGM compared to a 3rd Gen DRDO ATGM that is in testing. I think it is more a paid article as the Akash is in squadron service and deployed already, with more being ordered. Moreoever, DRDO has shown the ability to further improve this system (Seeker in End Game vs being Radar guided throughout and extended range with dual pulse motor being talked about). THis is a serious threat to the SPYDER and SPYDER-ER (similar mission profile and range) with the new under test QRSAM (DRDO) also having proven effective in its initial tests.

Yes there is a possibility of production issues at BDL/ OFB. But as with any thing that is manufactured, there will always be a certain acceptable failure rate. Moreover, there will never be just one missile fired at a target, esp. at these ranges. It is important to understand that the Akash is just a layer in what is typically a multi layered Air defence method. - There will be long range weapons first (S400/S300/ Barak 8), Then a secondary layer of SA6 (Being retired), Then Akash/ Pechora (Being retired), Then SA8 / QRSAM, ManPADS (Man Portable Air Defence Systems) like Igla, then 40mm AA Guns and Rapid Fire Guns. Also, most of the shorter range systems (Akash included) will never be single fired, they almost always will have two missiles aimed at the same target. This is to ensure a higher kill probability as your engagement envelope is very low (a fighter at Mach 0.95 will cover about 20 kms in one min) - meaning you will have to calculate the hit probability, location, azimuth, etc - and launch within a very short time.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I would prefer to belive the person who puts his money where his mouth is. In this case the IAF. The First Post article is too generic . Words are cheap. Indian journalists tend to file criticism without backing it with solid technical analysis and believe that throwing in a some jargon suffices for technical integrity of their writing. And it is not a strategic weapon system. It is a tactical one.

Mind you it is entirely possible that Akash is not yet perfect. The last 5% of perfection in a weapon system only comes after you put it into squadron service.

+1 to that Sir. Also, Akash 1S is deployed and in squadron service. I have also seen the whole system deployed in an airport. Importantly, no system is perfect. Akash being a wave rider (I like calling it that) is dependent on the Radar almost through the whole range. This makes is succeptible to Jamming (if the enemy uses something like a Growler) or even strikes from Anti Radiation missiles (Targetting the radar itself). The Akash NG will have a dual pulse motor (better kinematics in the end, where most missiles lose energy) and also a secondary short range seeker (developed for the QRSAM). Most journalists cant tell the difference between smokeless propellent and RAM jet engines. Or the difference between a 39 cal and 52 cal gun, I could go on! So I will accept that article for what it is - crap.

Originally Posted by comfortablynumb

Reminds me of this conversation between Jim Hacker and Bernard Woolley, from Yes Prime Minister (specifically 1:10 onwards):


Noob question alert - If and when the powers that be give a Green light for taking out terrorist launch pads (whose coordinates are accurately known) across the LOC, why isn't the Army version of the Brahmos used, instead of SFs? Would that be classified as a higher escalation rather than a surgical strike, with more serious ramifications?

Cheers,
Vikram

Detailed answers already given, but my 2cents. Why use a Sledgehammer to kill a fly?

Originally Posted by SmartCat

Mortars - Up to 5 kms
Artillery - Up to 40 kms
Multiple Launch Rocket System - Up to 100 kms
Cruise missile - Up to 1,000 kms
Ballistic missile - Up to 10,000 kms.

Interestingly some 155mm systems have been able to reach as far as 70kms (Base Bleed ER Ammo) with devastating accuracy.

What most people dont realise that these are all systems. All systems have MTBM (Mean Time Between Maintenance), MTBO (Mean time between Overhaul) and MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures). Please note the word 'Mean Time'. Statistically this number means that if the MTBF is 100 cycles, it could fail at 50 cycles or 150 cycles as well of course I am over simplifying it, but you get the drift.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by torquecurve

I think it is more a paid article as the Akash is in squadron service and deployed already, with more being ordered. Moreover, DRDO has shown the ability to further improve this system
So I will accept that article for what it is - crap.

+1 to that. Thanks torquecurve. So nice to see you on the aviation related threads after several months. We all learn something new when you write. Now, what could we do to encourage you to write more often on these aviation/missile/defence threads

Moreover, there will never be just one missile fired at a target, esp. at these ranges. It is important to understand that the Akash is just a layer in what is typically a multi layered Air defence method.

+1 This concept is rarely understood by these pocket and pen journalists. They also don't understand that the theoretical superb-ness or otherwise of one system is but one component of a lot of pieces which include most critically the team, the leadership, the processes, the C3I, the training etc.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by comfortablynumb

Noob question alert - If and when the powers that be give a Green light for taking out terrorist launch pads (whose coordinates are accurately known) across the LOC, why isn't the Army version of the Brahmos used, instead of SFs? Would that be classified as a higher escalation rather than a surgical strike, with more serious ramifications?

Reply to your question by BS Dhanoa himself :

The Air Force had the option of using the far more potent BrahMos supersonic strike missile. The Sukhoi 30-BrahMos combination and surface to surface BrahMos were operational. But the warhead size is large. It was not a military target. It was not a kill all, destroy all mission,'' said the former Air Force chief.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/bs-d...balako-2148986

[V.Narayan]

Defence Ministry Acquires 248 Indigenously Designed ASTRA Missiles for IAF & Indian Navy

https://www.republicworld.com/india-...ra-missle.html

In a major boost to the Indian armed forces, the Defence Ministry has cleared the acquisition of 248 Astra Beyond Visual Range air-to-air missiles, marking the first acquisition of the indigenous DRDO-developed missiles. Of these missiles, the Navy will get 48 Astra missiles for its MiG-29K fighter jets, while 200 missiles have been acquired for its 33 new Russian fighter planes including 12 Su-30 MKIs and 21 MiG-29s.

ASTRA is a Beyond Visual Range (BVR) class of Air-to-Air Missile (AAM) system designed to be mounted on fighter aircraft. The ASTRA Mk-I Weapon System integrated with SU-30 Mk-I aircraft is being inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) and can be launched in autonomous and buddy mode of operation with features for Lock-On-Before Launch (LOBL) and Lock-On After Launch (LOAL). The dual-mode guidance consists of an upgraded mid-course internal and active radar terminal homing systems. It allows the Astra BVR missile to locate and track targets at different altitudes. The weapon system is equipped with a high-explosive pre-fragmented warhead that weighs 15kg. A radio proximity fuse (RPF) developed by HAL activates the warhead. This RPF has a detection range of up to 30m, a detonation range of 15m and a missile target velocity between 100m/s and 1,600m/s. The Astra BVR is powered by a smokeless, single stage, solid fuel propulsion system. It can intercept and destroy enemy targets with a launch speed between Mach 0.4 and Mach 2. Launch range and launch altitudes of the weapon system are 80km and 20,000 metres respectively. The missile can achieve 40 g turns near sea level while engaging a moving target.

[shortbread]

The plan for drdo to transfer technology to the private sector and enable them to supply the defence forces is a masterstroke and long overdue.

Case in point the pinaka rockets.

In a major boost for Make in India, the first ever rockets fully manufactured by the private sector have been successfully test fired by the army, signalling that single source dependency on Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) will soon be a thing of the past.

As part of the Make in India drive and push for the private sector in defence manufacturing, the Pinaka technology was transferred five years ago, with a decision taken to split further orders evenly with OFB.

The armed forces have been looking at creating alternate sources for munitions to reduce dependency on OFB that has had a mixed track record. Industry estimates peg that privately manufactured munitions of different variety would cost 20-30% cheaper than the OFB fixed pricing.

https://m.economictimes.com/news/def...w/77646051.cms

Few years back I did read about the state of rockets and other ammo manufactured by the ordinance board. Rest assured India would have lost most battles in these government factories, well before soldiers on the front line saw actual action.

India's defence forces have been crying repeatedly about the high number of accidents taking place in the field due to poor quality of ammunition being supplied for tanks, artillery, air defence and other guns by the OFB!

The rise in ammunition-related accidents, taking place regularly, were causing fatalities, life changing injuries and damage to equipment.

What is stunning is the scale and size of the OFB, its absolutely massive. How long does the public have to foot the bill for such an inefficient organisation?

On paper the ofb is Asia's second largest defence manufacturer. It comprises of 41 ordnance factories, 9 training institutes, 3 regional marketing centres and 4 regional controllerates of safety, which are spread all across the country, with an annual budget of over Rs 15,000 crore. It employs 80,000 people!

[SmartCat]

DRDO's hypersonic missile vehicle test video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C13R4Lagp9E

This tweet by Brahma Chellaney is interesting - hypersonic missiles do not need to carry explosives because targets can be easily destroyed by kinetic energy of Mach 6 missile.



This infographic on flight path of hypersonic missile (compared to ballistic or cruise missile) is an eye-opener:



Essentially, ballistic and cruise missiles can be tracked and shot down (under certain conditions). But hypersonic missiles are much more difficult to track and shoot down.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

Essentially, ballistic and cruise missiles can be tracked and shot down (under certain conditions). But hypersonic missiles are much more difficult to track and shoot down.

I really don’t know or even begin to understand much about military stuff. But I am very interested in it from an engineering point of view and general understanding what makes these people tick.

My understanding is that as of last year the USA has actually started budgeting for developing defence systems to hypersonic missiles. The Chinese are known to be developing their own hypersonic missiles too. If they can, and their adversaries are developing them, I would bet they are thinking of finding defence mechanism too.

Even so, I imagine there is a big difference between being able to intercept an actual hypersonic missile and detecting its launch. I imagine both American and Russian satellite and system are perfectly capable of detecting such a launch? What about the Chinese? If they can’t intercept the damn thing, but can detect its launch they might put all sort of other hardware in the air, before this hypersonic missile hits its target? So not being able to intercept sounds a bit academic to me. What are we going to do, cheer because we destroyed one tiny target whilst all of us get nuked 10 minutes later?

So interception might be a bit of a moot point in all. As long as you can make sure who shot at you, and you can hit that guy back even harder, what is the point of marketing the concept of “not tracking and intercepting”. As long as the other guy outguns you, you’re going to die if he so chooses.

Back to these hypersonic missile. How big a punch do they deliver? It’s down to old Newton again: 1/2mV(squared). Obviously the speed is high, but no so much on the mass. How would a hypersonic missile compare to conventional or nuclear bombs in terms of impact?

Is this more of a surgical/precision instrument (e.g. destroy one building) or more brute force (e.g. destroy a city)

I have been doing some reading on intercepting ballistic missiles. Makes for interesting reading. They way I read it, is that quite a few countries have some form of capabilities. However, that is all based on a single launch or a few at best.
And it might succeed.

If we ever find ourselves in a situation where a large number of ICBM are launched none of the existing counter measure and or intercept system would be adequate.

Have a look here: https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/20/1...defense-review

So why are the military pursuing yet another toy, whereas the existing toys we have are more than capable of wiping out whole nations?

I guess its progress, or staying ahead on the curve. But in the greater scheme of things and current missile capabilities and quantities I don’t see where this hypersonic fits in. What strategic problem is it solving?

Jeroen

[V.Narayan]

Hypersonic vehicle -- The speed of a ballistic missile with the manoeuverability of a cruise missile. That's what this seems to me.

Of course this thread is not the place for this alternate discussion but I wonder how many generations will it take for humankind to understand that if we invest in child & mother healthcare and child education we will reduce the need to spend so much to defend ourselves.

A note worthy achievement for DRDO/ISRO nevertheless.

[blackwasp]

India on Monday conducted a successful test flight of the indigenously developed hypersonic technology demonstrator vehicle (HSTDV), joining the elite club of the US, Russia and China who possess such technology.

The HSDTV has a range of uses, including missiles for air defence, surveillance and reconnaissance, besides aiding the development of energy-efficient, low-cost and reusable satellite launch vehicles.

Monday’s test also comes at a time when ties between India and China are frayed due to intrusions by Chinese troops into Indian territory.

The success of Monday’s flight test of the HSTDV was confirmed by India’s defence minister Rajnath Singh and the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). “The @DRDO_India has today successfully flight tested the Hypersonic Technology Demonstrator Vehicle using the indigenously developed scramjet propulsion system. With this success, all critical technologies are now established to progress to the next phase," Singh said in the first of two posts on Twitter.

India first tested the HSTDV last year in June. Monday’s test was also conducted from the Dr APJ Abdul Kalam Launch Complex at Wheeler Island, off the Odisha coast.

The statement said the hypersonic cruise vehicle was launched using a previously tested solid rocket motor, which propelled it to an altitude of 30 km where the aerodynamic heat shields separated at hypersonic speeds.

“The cruise vehicle separated from the launch vehicle and the air intake (channel) opened as planned. The hypersonic combustion (was) sustained and the cruise vehicle continued on its desired flight path at a velocity of six times the speed of sound i.e. nearly 2 km/s for more than 20s. The critical events like fuel injection and auto ignition of scramjet demonstrated technological maturity. The scramjet engine performed in a text book manner. The parameters of launch and cruise vehicle, including scramjet engine was monitored by multiple tracking radars, electro-optical systems and telemetry stations," the statement said.

Source

The Defense Research and Development Laboratory's Hypersonic Technology Demonstrator Vehicle (HSTDV) is intended to attain autonomous scramjet flight for 20 seconds, using a solid rocket launch booster. The research will also inform India's interest in reusable launch vehicles. The eventual target is to reach Mach 6 at an altitude of 32.5 km

The HSTDV is an unmanned scramjet demonstration aircraft for hypersonic speed flight. It is being developed as a carrier vehicle for hypersonic and long-range cruise missiles, and will have multiple civilian applications including the launching of small satellites at low cost. The HSTDV program is run by the Indian Defence Research and Development Organisation

On 7 September 2020 DRDO successfully tested the scramjet powered Hypersonic Technology Demonstrator Vehicle (HSTDV). Cruise vehicle was launched at 11:03 IST from Dr APJ Abdul Kalam Launch Complex at Wheeler Island atop a solid booster. At 30 km altitude payload fairing separated, followed by separation of HSTDV cruise vehicle, air-intake opening, fuel injection and auto-ignition. After sustaining hypersonic combustion for 20 seconds, cruise vehicle achieved velocity of nearly 2 km per second. This test flight validated aerodynamic configuration of vehicle, ignition and sustained combustion of scramjet engine at hypersonic flow, separation mechanisms and characterised thermo-structural materials. The HSTDV is set to serve as the building block for next-generation hypersonic cruise missiles.

Source

[fhdowntheline]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Of course this thread is not the place for this alternate discussion but I wonder how many generations will it take for humankind to understand that if we invest in child & mother healthcare and child education we will reduce the need to spend so much to defend ourselves.

I guess humans like all species must necessarily have conflicts in order to evolve. Universal ‘peace’ is antithetical to the natural order.

[SmartCat]

Nirbhay cruise missile has been deployed in Ladakh - operational clearance & user trials will be done later!

India deploys long-range missile Nirbhay to counter Chinese threat at LAC
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/stor...255-2020-09-28

In a major boost to India's long-range defence, the security forces have rolled out homegrown subsonic missile Nirbhay to counter China's missile deployment along the Line of Actual Control. The surface-to-surface missile has a reach of up to 1,000 km. The Nirbhay missile is capable of low-level stealth strike on targets. It means it is capable of flying between 100 metres to four km from ground and pick up the target before engaging it.

The Nirbhay missile has been developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The missile has been in the testing for seven years. This is Nirbhay missile's first deployment. According to sources, the new missiles have been deployed in a limited number for now. The missile is likely to get full op clearance later.

[AlphaKilo]

It is a very big deal that DRDO has done a flight test of the hypersonic body and this puts India into a extremely elite group of nations. Factually, what we see there flying is just the combustion chamber and nothing else that was flight tested. The solid stage propels the payload (top black portion) to super sonic speeds from where the hypersonic combustion chamber (SCRAM jet engine) is ignited and let to glide down and simultaneously accelerate to hypersonic speeds.

Just a small technical insight into the hypersonics. The speed or achieving the hypersonic speed (above Mach 5 or over 5 times faster than sound)is not the hardest part rather sustaining it is. The SR-71 at triple the speed of sound has issues of its surface melting, control surfaces are ineffective and buffeting etc. As far as missiles are concerned, if they are going to simply cruise or drop (exospheric missiles or reentry missiles like the ICBMs), the job is relatively easy. Let gravity take care of the speed and ensure that the payload fairing is strong enough to withstand the friction heat.

But to cruise within the atmosphere or to accelerate from tri-sonic to hyper sonic, needs something called as "supersonic combustion". In conventional jet engines, the air at the tip of nacelle/entry point into the engine is usually supersonic but once it enters, it is slowed down to subsonic before entering the combustion chamber. In Ram jets or SCRAM jets (Supersonic Combustion Ram jets), the air is allowed to enter the combustion chamber at super sonic speeds and ignited/explosion is triggered. This is achieved purely by aerodynamics and shock wave generation. Tried to explain it in simple terms so that everyone can understand the basic working and the complexity of hypersonic flight. Experts, please feel free to correct me and/or add more technically correct details.

For many years, a lot of researchers around the world have been struggling to achieve a sustained super sonic combustion which is the base for hypersonic flights. There are only handful of wind tunnels all around the world that can simulate hypersonic conditions, making the testing even more hard. The order of magnitude of supersonic combustion achieved were around milliseconds during the initial stage of development. Pioneers in this field are russians, as with every other missile technology. We had a professor at our univ who was an ex USSR scientist and was the subject matter expert.

P.S: Our university is the only civilian organization in the whole world to have not one but two hypersonic wind tunnels and the two of the total 4 in Europe. (just showing off!)

[SmartCat]

Gents, what could possibly be the use case of this missile - Supersonic Missile Assisted Release of Torpedo (SMART)? From what I understand, there is a torpedo placed inside a ballistic missile to take out enemy submarines.

India successfully tests ‘game changer’ SMART torpedo system for anti-submarine warfare
https://theprint.in/defence/india-su...arfare/517354/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2l-1D9eR3Y

However, to detect an enemy submarine in our waters, you need another submarine or warship or an aircraft like Boeing P-8 Poseidon. Now all these are equipped with torpedoes to take on submarines at detection ranges.



Now this infographic suggests that SMART torpedo has a range of 500+ km. Can an enemy submarine be detected by other submarines/ warships/ aircraft from a distance of 500+ km?

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

Gents, what could possibly be the use case of this missile - Supersonic Missile Assisted Release of Torpedo (SMART)? From what I understand, there is a torpedo placed inside a ballistic missile to take out enemy submarines.

However, to detect an enemy submarine in our waters, you need another submarine or warship or an aircraft like Boeing P-8 Poseidon. Now all these are equipped with torpedoes to take on submarines at detection ranges.

Now this infographic suggests that SMART torpedo has a range of 500+ km. Can an enemy submarine be detected by other submarines/ warships/ aircraft from a distance of 500+ km?

Thank you for sharing. When I read it last night I was scratching my head - 650kms ??! - supersonic??! - whatever for. Without taking away anything from DRDOs achievement I am still scratching my head.

I suspect, though I might be wrong, that the infographic is incorrect - journalistic bo-bo or conscious misinformation. Also the launch or carrier missile is not a ballistic one - there is no need for it to be especially when being ballistic versus a simple low altitude flying one would add multiples to cost. When your target is 20 kms away, at the very most, no point firing a missile 180 kms up into the air and then bring it down next to you.

Further ranges for today's ability to detect + track + identify is still measured in a few nautical miles not hundreds of kms. The need to get a torpedo out silently to the point where you believe the submarine is has persisted since WW-II. The Americans have their ASROC currently in service, the British & Australians had the Iskara, the French used to have the Malafon and the Soviets may still have their SS-N-14 systems - all subsonic missiles flying low carrying a torpedo to the expected point and then releasing it to the water. This way the enemy submarine does not get several minutes of warning time listening to the torpedo coming at it. This system by DRDO is probably similar to ASROC only faster. Maybe if they integrate the sensors of several platforms searching over a large area then any one can be the firing platform. A system like this serves surface warships best.

The American ASROC for example has a range of 22 kms. It reflects the reality of detection ranges. At that range getting to the target at a firmly subsonic & cost effective 400 knots {~740 kmph} takes 107 seconds. At a supersonic & more expensive 700 knots {~1300 kmph} it will take 61 seconds. Given that this is a submarine track & kill mission and not an aerial dogfight you really don't need to save those 46 seconds at huge extra cost.

Without taking away from DRDOs achievement the key in the whole chain of sinking an enemy submarine is detecting it in the first place, being able to identify the friend or foe or neutral (!!!) and then being able to track it long enough to achieve a firing solution. Only then do we get to the point where a weapon is launched.

IMHO the helicopter carrying a passive and active sonar remains the best weapon system to tackle a submarine. But every extra improvement counts. What does make me happy though is that we are developing our own weapon systems today. Till as recently as 1985 these seemed a complete impossibility. I used to wonder if I'll ever see India develop its own weapon systems in my life time. But the day has come. Now let's sort out the wretched Ordnance Factory Board.

[ads11]

Dear smartcat, thanks for asking a question I had in my head too when I saw the announcement, and as ever thank you v.narayan for clearing all doubt. Honestly at first I was baffled as to why you'd need to launch a torpedo in this manner but like you point out it makes sense. To the best of my knowledge, anything that stays above water for as long as possible before dropping in close to the target, robs the targeted boat of the time taken to hear it coming. So in that sense I totally get how this system would work. I take it though that it'll likely be launched either from surface vessels or aerial platforms?

Coming back to the issue alluded to, it's well known that a good ASW helicopter routinely dipping it's passive sonar in and out of the water is enough to ruin a boats day. Above the water air interface, just how blind are subs operating? I can imagine that sounds of say a helicopter would be hard to discern below the water line and especially so with a high flying Orion or Poseidon. Do subs have any sort of small (even to be discrete) and expendable buoy type devices that can be reeled out to the surface to give them ears above water so to speak?