[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by arunphilip

What I don't get is why a cold launch adds to the complexity of navigation and guidance. Isn't the cold launch just to avoid the need for firing up the rocket motor in the submarine's launch tube (since the thermal energy contained in that propellant can breach the hull if the launch goes awry), and instead just jettison the missile outside the tube, to let it safely fire up away from the submarine?

True that the inertial fix from the sub would be a few hundred feet wrong, but that's something that will be accounted for once the missile starts navigating by itself, wouldn't it?

Yes a cold launch is to get the missile into the air before firing the motors. A cold launch is a fairly complex engineering feat in it self considering it is underwater and you have gases pushing the missile up and water rushing in; the transit from container through 100 feet of water pushes the missile around on all three axis adding one more complexity to the gyroscopes. Ballistic missiles, due to the altitude they fly at have to carry their own navigation not GPS - all navigation is inertial and every toss around adds to the complexity. Hope this helps.

[Sutripta]

Has the Brahmos been inducted into service by the Russians?

Regards
Sutripta

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

Has the Brahmos been inducted into service by the Russians?

Unlikely it will ever be inducted by Russians because they have this - supersonic cruise missile with 800 km range.



Brahmos has been basically developed from Yakhont missile. Reason why India didn't get the 800 km variant is because of something called MTCR (Missile Technology Control Regime) that bans the export of missiles with a range greater than 300 km.

And that's exactly why Brahmos has a range of 290 km

Russians were interested in Brahmos project because of large Indian market and also the possibility of selling the missile to other friendly nations like Vietnam. They cannot sell the 800 km variant because of MTCR.

Other than the range, key differences between Yakhont and Brahmos -

1) Brahmos has 70% Indian content
2) Yakhont is purely a anti-ship missile, while Brahmos can be launched from ground/air/sea against ground targets and shipping targets.

[dhanushmenon]

Awesome thread once again sir. Replete with information and lucidly explained without much swanky military jargons.
Thanks for compiling this.

[Ithaca]

Narayan Sir, your defence related threads are a treat to read.
Thank you for taking the time and effort in compiling this data.
It is a great learning experience for members like me who are fascinated by our military.

[vharihar]

Mods, request you to pls close and delete this thread. I don't think it is appropriate to discuss defence related stuff in a public forum.

As has happened several times in other team-bhp forums (eg. devp of a new car), confidential info like spy shots, engine specs, etc has gotten leaked in these forums before the manufacturing company made it public. If we have a thread such as the present one, sooner or later such an occurrence is bound to happen here too. Surely we don't want that happening.

[SmartCat]

India will be getting the SCALP air-launched cruise missile from France, as a part of Rafale deal.



Key differences between SCALP and Brahmos:

- Scalp is a sub-sonic missile while Brahmos is supersonic
- Scalp weighs around 1.5 tonnes while Brahmos is heavy at 3 tonnes
- Because of its weight, only Su-30MKI can lug around a Brahmos. Scalp can be integrated with Rafale and even Mirage 2000
- Scalp has a 500 kg payload while Brahmos has half that at 250 kg
- Brahmos is suitable for hardened targets like bunkers or aircraft hangars primarily because of its kinetic energy (3 tonnes weight x mach 3 speed). Scalp is suitable all other targets.
- Brahmos is approximately 3x more expensive than Scalp.
- Scalp has a range of 600 km as compared to Brahmos' 300 km

[arunphilip]

Originally Posted by vharihar

Mods, request you to pls close and delete this thread. I don't think it is appropriate to discuss defence related stuff in a public forum.

As has happened several times in other team-bhp forums (eg. devp of a new car), confidential info like spy shots, engine specs, etc has gotten leaked in these forums before the manufacturing company made it public. If we have a thread such as the present one, sooner or later such an occurrence is bound to happen here too. Surely we don't want that happening.

Your concern is appreciated, but I'd think your fears are unfounded. Let me explain why.

I'd say the comparison between car tests and defense work is as diametrically opposite as can be imagined (well, apart from my waistline, that is!)

Leaks or releases of automotive information occurs intentionally and unintentionally. Intentionally, manufacturers leak bits of information to get some buzz about their product generated. Unintentionally, what is leaked is important - I agree - but hardly critical, or something that causes a manufacturer to lose any competitive advantage. Specs, photos of engine bays, etc. are not exactly opaque knowledge.

The one area which is safeguarded well is pricing information, and notice how that never leaks? There are hints and guesses all over the internet, of course, but then again, how differently can you price a particular model?

Ever notice how auto manufacturers never issue takedowns against any site, for any scoop? That's because what has been revealed isn't exactly confidential or intellectual property. It's not like the ECU source code has been published far and wide.

On the defence-oriented nature of this thread, rest assured, people in such high security jobs are not picked only for their skills, but their temperament. They understand the secrecy involved. They don't need shares or likes to feel socially validated. We're not going to find the designer of our next battle tank posting selfies with the specs of said tank in the background. Give them some credit. And its not like those of us who are not of that temperament have access to such secret data either.

Bear in mind that TBHP is just the messenger/host, not the originator. TBHP isn't the only place on the internet for someone to post stuff.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by vharihar

Mods, request you to pls close and delete this thread. I don't think it is appropriate to discuss defence related stuff in a public forum.

As has happened several times in other team-bhp forums (eg. devp of a new car), confidential info like spy shots, engine specs, etc has gotten leaked in these forums before the manufacturing company made it public. If we have a thread such as the present one, sooner or later such an occurrence is bound to happen here too. Surely we don't want that happening.

Most of the information is declassified and available in the public domain and in books. If you know where to look, even some classified information and manuals are available on the internet.

There are PC simulators which accurately model various flight models, radars and weapons systems. If it was such an issue, those things would have been banned or taken down first by the govt.

Compilation of such threads by Narayan sir needs a lot of time and research. So relax and respect his work, and let the military enthusiasts enjoy their hobby.

[vharihar]

I beg to disagree. You're just making it easier to cross the line, and a weaker person would cross the line one day without even realising it. And such weak persons exist in all fields. You're giving them too much credit, in assuming that they don't exist.

[nevinfrancis]

Nothing discussed here is classified or sensitive - its all just plain open source stuff. No need to delete anything here. There are many public sites and forums which analyse defense related things in much more comprehensive way. This is just a compilation of plain public stuff and a good one at that

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by vharihar

I beg to disagree. You're just making it easier to cross the line, and a weaker person would cross the line one day without even realising it. And such weak persons exist in all fields. You're giving them too much credit, in assuming that they don't exist.

Why would those 'across the line' tempt the 'vulnerable' or pay for information that is openly available on the internet and other sources? Its not as if weaknesses of such systems are being discussed that would help the enemy(but even such information is available out there).

Even i have some flight manuals and limited declassified documents that were previously classified, the pride of which are a DECLASSIFIED MiG-21bis Russian/English pilot's manual and an A-6 pilot's Manual. In today's world, some of them are worthless or are available on open sources. So why worry at all?

[SmartCat]

There are atleast 10 or 15 India defence forums where military related topics are discussed. Just do a Google search.



However, I do worry sometimes that "car enthusiast" ISI agents might be watching Narayan's threads. But after I heard that RAW has recruited "Tiger", I sleep well.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by PetrolRider

30 years back I used to eagerly wait for monthly subscribed comics to arrive and now I cross my finger when there will be a new article from you on Indian military establishment

Glad to hear I am giving the comic books a tough time

Originally Posted by shantonob

Another great post from you sir.
What happened to our ballistic missile shield?

Good point shantonob. Deserves a post of its own.

The bofors and shilka's won't cut it anymore.

Valid point. If I may add another perspective. For point defence ie the last mile a rapid fire gun with good automatic radar fire control can be invaluable....simply invaluable. Agree, the manually controlled Bofors won't cut anymore. Infact they were outdated even in '71.

Our air defense needs new weapons period, more so with the diminishing aircraft strengths, but again we shouldn't spend fortunes getting them from others at hefty premiums.

Here to a large extent HAL/DRDO failed the IAF and the IAF top brass across two generations failed themselves. I could write an essay on this having followed it live over my working lifetime. Look at the Navy.

Originally Posted by AKTRACK

..

Originally Posted by skanchan95

The SA-3 has this "Peecha Na Chora" tagline with the IAF SAM Squadrons

Originally Posted by arunphilip

..

Originally Posted by Ithaca

Narayan Sir, your defence related threads are a treat to read.Thank you for taking the time and effort in compiling this data.

Gentlemen, thank you for your compliments. Your readership makes the effort worthwhile for this [not so]old man. I like writing on subjects that will help our younger generation know more of the good and great that is also happening in India and help us all appreciate that the aches and pains of India, which we rightfully grumble about, is not all there is to us. I clearly recall the Doordarshan coverage, in 1975, of Aryabhatta, our first satellite put aloft by the Soviets and in 1980 Doordarshan covered live the first successful launch of the first SLV - Dr. APJ Kalam was the project Director. And from there in less than a life time we are testing the Prithvi Air Defence - a missile to shoot down a incoming ballistic missile !!!

Originally Posted by sandx

Specific to the Akash missile system, it has earned praises from its end users and the public sector units have a order backlog to equip the regiments coming up while more orders are on the anvil.

+1 to that. Akash was not perfect to start with. But step by step it has improved a lot and can still go a long way. The American Sidewinder and Sparrow [called ASPIDE by some] were not perfect to start with either. They evolved over time and took over 10 to 15 years and the experience of Vietnam to get both to being truly effective. I am pleased that here due to some influence from the Army the IAF did not insist on make it perfect first which in my opinion [I may be wrong] is happening with Tejas. Akash NG looks very hopeful.

Somewhere in the mid 80s the government botched up the purchase of fighters for the air force in a knee jerk reaction to our Neighbor acquiring F-16s. We have never been able to clear the shortage since.

You seem like someone who knows his onions on this subject.

Originally Posted by Lone Ranger

I have what could possibly be a very stupid question, but I have to ask.

Better to be dumb once than be dumb forever.

In a full scale theater of war, when these systems are actively engaging the enemy, how does one reload them after they use their payload? Do they have to return to a base of some sort where new missiles are loaded or can they be equipped right there on the battlefield itself?

Regretfully I too am dumb on this matter at least where the S-400 goes. So that makes two of us. In case of other SAMs re-loads are carried with the Regiment/Squadron into the field what we deploy are re-loadable in the field. Those deployed by the IAF by definition will be close to an asset being protected and therefore close to re-supply facilities.

It is not hard to imagine 200 years into the future, the 'solider' might very well be a group of men and woman at the controls of an AI system (I don't think they will be called computers anymore!) hundreds of kilometers from the actual battlefield, controlling drones, andriod bots and whatnot!

or stones and sticks...!!!

Originally Posted by Sutripta

Has the Brahmos been inducted into service by the Russians?

As smartcat said no they have not. Partly they already have too many systems and missiles and partly budgets. They may in the future though given BrahMos will get developed into Version 2.0 and 3.0.

Originally Posted by dhanushmenon

Awesome thread once again sir. Replete with information and lucidly explained without much swanky military jargons.Thanks for compiling this.

Thank you dhanushmenon. Coming from you this has special meaning. Thank you for appreciating the simplicity of the narration. That is the hard part.

Originally Posted by vharihar

Mods, request you to pls close and delete this thread. I don't think it is appropriate to discuss defence related stuff in a public forum.

Thank you for your comment and concern. It is only natural to feel that way. As a patriotic fellow countryman I would not want any confidential defence and security matters on a public forum either. The data and photos shared here, while they may be new to some, are all in the public domain on official GoI sites, Wikipedia etc. I hope this addresses your concern. Thank you for reading the photo essay.

Originally Posted by smartcat

India will be getting the SCALP air-launched cruise missile from France, as a part of Rafale deal.

Thank you smartcat for adding more meat to the thread.:-)

Historical Photo below of SLV-3 - first successful launch 1980. It took us 25 years to get to this point. This launch was the birth of our modern missile programme. 14 years later Prithvi-I was in service. Jai Hind


Photo Source: GoI

[sandx]

Originally Posted by vharihar

Mods, request you to pls close and delete this thread. I don't think it is appropriate to discuss defence related stuff in a public .

Wow, did I read this for real. Believe me when I say, that there are far better places someone would go to check up defence related stuff rather than a team-bhp forum. This thread is just an interest induced discussion.

Just as an example. If we you were to read up an RFP or a request for proposal that’s usually released before the evaluation process starts for the actual procurement of defence equipment, the exact requirements are laid out in public for vendors to respond. That would be far more interesting for “interested” entities than the actual buy later.

Since the announcement of the deal, even the average joe is sharing an infographic of the full spectrum capabilities of the S-400 system in social media thinking its some fighter aircraft that India bought .