[shancz]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

- most likely Air Asia will not be a part of the Air India Express. But I could be wrong about that last bit.

- The employee culture gaps between Air India and Vistara are significant; will pose a challenge.

- The next candidate crying for a takeover is Spicejet. Anyone willing to bid?

- All told a very exciting time of fundamental change for Indian aviation not only due to Air India but also the Udaan schemes that are steadily taking passenger air connectivity to smaller towns across the country.

- Just a "feeling" but it would make more sense to end Air Asia India and absorb any owned A320s and crew into Air India.
Air India Express with their 737s should be upgraded separately. Air India Express doesn't enjoy a lot of "status" but they serve some of the most incredible routes due to their middle east workforce oriented approach. I once searched flying between Ras Al Khaimah and Abu Dhabi in UAE (don't ask why) and the only airline available was Air India Express

- This will be the most tricky challenge, if done right will lay the foundation of a strong airline to reckon with. Although the whole Air India - Indian Airlines merger(read mess) makes one wary but the good part today is that the government is out of this.

- Air India Express should find a good use of their resources to fuel an economical upgrade.
Tata Sons should takeover this too and mop up the sector for good

- Couldn't agree more, it seems a bit cloudy, turbulent and unsettling now but we're witnessing history being created IMHO.

Godspeed to Tata Sons and the entire team.

[binaiks]

Originally Posted by shancz

- Just a "feeling" but it would make more sense to end Air Asia India and absorb any owned A320s and crew into Air India.
Air India Express with their 737s should be upgraded separately. Air India Express doesn't enjoy a lot of "status" but they serve some of the most incredible routes due to their middle east workforce oriented approach. I once searched flying between Ras Al Khaimah and Abu Dhabi in UAE (don't ask why) and the only airline available was Air India Express

Air Asia India and Air India Express would merge. Air India Express enjoyed special status while it was with the government - no airline is allowed to operate only on International Routes in India, and IX's domestic operations are close to nil. So, the domestic routes served by I5 would be required to meet regulatory requirements to continue operating IX.

[shancz]

Originally Posted by binaiks

Air Asia India and Air India Express would merge.

I presumed that they used the AI ownership to start their international operations to meet the 5/20 rule or maybe there was something more to it but I am not eligible to comment on that.

My point is purely from a technical and operational perspective that one low cost airline maintaining both the 737 and A320 family in their fleet doesn't sound economical whether its purchase, maintenance or flight crew.

To be honest I would only expect IX to operate because AI as a large airline might prefer to have a 737 fleet too for better balance and bargaining power for their widebody fleet as well as the 737 fleet itself and also catering for some unforeseen eventuality with let's say a new Airbus model/engine which leads to a grounding of some aircraft.
But how much business sense this makes is beyond me and highly qualified professionals with much better info will be taking that call.
So this decision about the future of Air Asia India and Air India Express has me interested


PS : I really hope that someone someday writes a book on it.

[binaiks]

Originally Posted by shancz

I presumed that they used the AI ownership to start their international operations to meet the 5/20 rule or maybe there was something more to it but I am not eligible to comment on that.

Air India and Air India Express operates on two different Air Operator Permits. The Government ownership helped IX to fly only international without deploying capacity for domestic operations (whatever little domestic they operate are purely for operational reasons to shift aircraft from one base to another, and to get them to their maintenance base in TRV)

Originally Posted by shancz

My point is purely from a technical and operational perspective that one low cost airline maintaining both the 737 and A320 family in their fleet doesn't sound economical whether its purchase, maintenance or flight crew.

A lot of airlines already have a combination of 737 and 320 in their fleet - it certainly doesn't sound economical, but when you have sizeable fleet of each of them, it becomes economical in its own sense. Especially considering that production lines for 320 is more or less full, it makes a lot of sense to have a mixture so that you don't get into trouble with monopoly!

[shancz]

Originally Posted by binaiks

- Air India and Air India Express operates on two different Air Operator Permits.

- but when you have sizeable fleet of each of them, it becomes economical in its own sense. Especially considering that production lines for 320 is more or less full, it makes a lot of sense to have a mixture so that you don't get into trouble with monopoly!

- Didn't know that, Thanks a lot for the info

- Makes sense and the A320 lines being full is certainly an important factor second only to the point on monopoly.

Although how the mixed fleet equates over time and size is something quite interesting to me and not just for the economical reasons. Hence the questions and doubts
This decision would be linked to how they see the airline evolving 10-15 years from now, IMHO.

[thanixravindran]

Originally Posted by binaiks

Air Asia India and Air India Express would merge. Air India Express enjoyed special status while it was with the government - no airline is allowed to operate only on International Routes in India, and IX's domestic operations are close to nil. So, the domestic routes served by I5 would be required to meet regulatory requirements to continue operating IX.

Isn't Air India express mostly a Gulf carrier to fulfill and keep the lucrative seats quota to Middle East within Government.

I thought it will be made closed with Tata selloff as all international operations will be handled under Air India brand itself.

[binaiks]

Originally Posted by thanixravindran

Isn't Air India express mostly a Gulf carrier to fulfill and keep the lucrative seats quota to Middle East within Government.

I thought it will be made closed with Tata selloff as all international operations will be handled under Air India brand itself.

Air India would evolve as a premium carrier, taking on the likes of biggies like Emirates or KLM, etc. Air India Express is perfectly what is needed for shorter regional international flights that are mainly intended for the huge NRI population in the middle east, and the south east asia. Sending a premium airline there doesn't make sense.

Air Asia itself has been trying to fly international since long - they were targeting the middle east as well!

[Comrade]

To a layman like me, the only odd machine in TATA's entire fleet (AI+IX+AK+UK) are the 29 Boeing 737 machines. Rest all of the short-medium distance narrow body aircrafts are A319+A320+A321 family, while all of the long distance wide body aircrafts B777+B787.

Coming to 737s, the number of machines in service is negligible compared Tata's A320 fleet (close to 130 machines). There are 24 B737s with AI Express and 5 machines with Vistara, and the latter have been shoved down by the GoI after Jet wound up. Out of 24 machines with AI Express, 16 are owned with age > 13 years, and remaining 8 are leased.

There were news reports that Tata has already planned to move these 5 machines from Vistara to Air India Express. There were also media reports that Tata is leasing 25 A320s to expand Air India's short team capacity but no news of B737 leases. To me, all these moves indicate that only Air India Express will continue with B737 for timebeing while rest of the carriers will use A320 family. I think AI Express will also eventually move to A320 but thats just my wild guess.

[DigitalOne]

AirAsia Sells Its Remaining Stake In India Operations To Tata-Led Air India


AirAsia Aviation Group Limited sold its remaining stake in AirAsia (India) Private Limited, its India operations, to Tata group-led Air India, according to a regulatory filing.

Source

[fhdowntheline]

Originally Posted by Comrade

To a layman like me, the only odd machine in TATA's entire fleet (AI+IX+AK+UK) are the 29 Boeing 737 machines. Rest all of the short-medium distance narrow body aircrafts are A319+A320+A321 family, while all of the long distance wide body aircrafts B777+B787.
Coming to 737s, the number of machines in service is negligible compared Tata's A320 fleet (close to 130 machines). There are 24 B737s with AI Express and 5 machines with Vistara, and the latter have been shoved down by the GoI after Jet wound up. Out of 24 machines with AI Express, 16 are owned with age > 13 years, and remaining 8 are leased.
.

I couldnt help but notice this rather matter-of-factly description of what we aviation buffs give more exalted names like "airplane" or "aircraft" or "birds". They are after all, machines. But perhaps one of the most complex and reliable machines ever made.
But you are right, the 737s do remain as the odd ones out in the fleet. Given Spicejet's present circumstances, and Jet Airways forever delayed comback, I'd say that Akasa Air gave a somewhat new lease of life to the Boeing short-haul family's future in India.

[Comrade]

Interesting Snippets from Hindu: Air India buys balance stake held in AirAsia India by Malaysian group

On AirAsia and Express merger

An operational review process is underway with a view to ultimately integrating AAI fully with Air India Express (AIXL). The full integration through a “possible scheme of merger or otherwise” is expected to take nearly 12 months during which the route network of the two airlines will be synergised. We are excited to initiate the creation of a single Air India Group low-cost carrier.

On Vistara and Air India Merger

In a recent media interaction Mr. Wilson declined to comment on the talks with SIA but indicated that the restructuring strategy could involve a low-cost model for domestic flights, and a full-service model for international ones.

The last point is something I always wondered. Is it really important to have a full service carrier for domestic routes? Looks like Air India + Vistara domestic market share is about 15% but what is unknown to me is how many of these passengers are consciously choosing AI or Vistara for their full-service vs choosing the airlines just for route or timing or connections etc. Would these passengers shy away if the stale sandwiches are no longer served in these less-than-2-hours flights!!

[msa.30789]

Recent updates on Air India after being acquired by Tata:

1. They are about to add 27 A320NEOs, 4 A321NEOs, 5 777-200LRs and 6 777-300ERs. They will be on short term lease until new fleet is added. Already one 777-200 has arrived from Delta Airlines.

2. AirAsia will be merged with AirIndia Express and Vistara will be merged into AirIndia. Singapore Airlines will make sufficient investment after the above process, so as to have its stake as 25% in the resultant entity.

3. AirIndia will refurbish its entire widebody fleet of 27 787s and 13 777-300ERs. Premium Economy seats will be added and a new mascot will be designed.

4. Air India close to singing order for 150 737MAX jets as Boeing has assured immediate delivery of these, starting from March 2023. Airbus may not be able to deliver 320NEOs till 2025. These were supposed to go to China Southern Airlines as China is yet to allow supply of Boeing Aircrafts. These 737MAX aircrafts may be added to AirIndia Express fleet. Also, AirIndia expected to add another 150 narrow body ( preferably A320NEOs) and 70 widebody aircrafts.

[V.Narayan]

Air India to sign a very large plane order today for 220 Boeing airliners followed soon thereafter for 275 Airbus aircraft

https://www.livemint.com/companies/n...770823661.html

Air India plans, today, to seal half of an order worth billions of dollars for some 495 jets with Boeing and engine suppliers General Electric and CFM International. Air India is set to place an order for 190 Boeing 737 MAX narrowbody planes as well as some 20 Boeing 787s and 10 Boeing 777X on a day marking one year since Tata Group took control of the former state-run carrier.

The second half of the order which includes around 235 Airbus single-aisle jets and about 40 Airbus A350 widebody aircraft, is expected to be formally wrapped up over the coming days. What has not been announced, to best of my knowledge, is the mix of the single aisle aircraft -A320/A220. The 737 MAX are probably due to long wait times of the A320 and a super attractive deal.

The order, once finalised, aims to put Air India in the league of large global airlines and make it an influential customer for planemakers and suppliers.

I dare say this order and aircraft mix is based on purely commercial & technical parameters without the political influence the bedevilled Air India orders in the 2005 -2010 time frame.

[shortbread]

One of the best things Air India can do is to diversify its main hubs to other regional airports like Amritsar, Kochi, new UP etc.... rather than clinging onto Delhi and Mumbai. Both of the latter are filled with senior legacy sarkaari stereotype employees, for whom it's nigh on impossible to shake of past behaviours/habits. Not all but plenty still stuck with the paan chewing, disheveled look, lazy attitude culture.

All across India there are newer regional airports that's under served and are clamouring for more international routes, plus have a massive NRI diaspora. Also Air India can induct fresh blood to these airports, who will bring more energy and new perspective. Plus these airports aren't served with a lot of direct flights globally, it's an open goalpost. Right now they're dominated by the ME/Gulf carriers.

Gluing themselves to Delhi and Mumbai operations is why Air India is still stuck with senior ex-govt. dinosaurs! I know they're important ports, but AI must desperately look to diversify to other cities.

[moralfibre]

All of Air India's procurement news has been complete speculation. Air India hasn't disclosed any plans of putting forward their orders with either Boeing and Airbus. Unfortunately media houses are running in a frenzy for lack of any news bites pertaining to the order.

Here are news from just one such news agency that hasn't gotten it right despite running multiple articles. Reuters:

1.Air India close to signing deal for 150 Boeing 737 Max jets, Economic Times reports - 09Dec'22

2. Exclusive: Air India nears historic order for up to 500 jets - 12Dec'22

3. Air India jumbo order includes 190 Boeing MAX, 30 787s -sources - 16Dec'22

4. Lessor says Air India to order around 500 jets - 16Jan'23

5. Airbus to win 235 single-aisle jet order under Air India relaunch -sources - 20Jan'23

6. Tata's Air India to seal half of jumbo plane order - sources - 27Jan'23

At this rate, the hedging done by Reuters and other media might strike atleast one news article to a near accurate number by the time Air India actually places their order.