[dust-n-bones]

Originally Posted by handsofsteel

There are challenges at sea and this incident highlights the biggest of them.

A ship is one of the most complex designs that defies most logic. It has ammunition, fuel, mammoth amounts of electric cables, coats of paint, high temperature and other flammable materiel. You would be hard pressed to name similar platforms anywhere else with all these in such close proximity. The crew keeps her taut, shining and proud. They wear their ship's name not only on their chest on the ship's T-shirt, but proudly in their hearts and they breathe the ship's name.

However, like everywhere in life, accidents happen. There are mechanisms in place, methodologies adopted, personnel trained and regularly sensitised, SOPs in place. But, accidents happen.

I'm sorry but this is of a script whenever there is bad news about our military. Whether its an incident involving aircraft, misfiring missiles, exploding submarines or, in this case a ship, we use the 'its a tough job' argument to shove the problem away, and condemn the ones who actually serve in these platforms to repeated tragedies.

You only have to go back a few pages to how the helicopter crash of CDS Vipin Rawat was defended, till a 'No one killed Jessica' moment was arrived at. And then its business as usual.

There not one report which has been made public that shows the root of the problem, and how it was addressed.
There may be sensitivity in the immediate aftermath, but why the secrecy after 5 years? Or 10? Why not make senior heads directly accountable for repeated accidents which points to a failure of culture of safety?
Why not force the refitter and navy in this case to publish their report in a timebound fashion to at least a privileged committee of the Parliament who can steer a course correction? And make a redacted version public?

Unless there is more transparency, the people who by omission and commission had a role to play can always find convenient scapegoats, and we blunder on.

[handsofsteel]

Originally Posted by dust-n-bones

I'm sorry but this is of a script whenever there is bad news about our military. Whether its an incident involving aircraft, misfiring missiles, exploding submarines or, in this case a ship, we use the 'its a tough job' argument to shove the problem away, and condemn the ones who actually serve in these platforms to repeated tragedies.

You only have to go back a few pages to how the helicopter crash of CDS Vipin Rawat was defended, till a 'No one killed Jessica' moment was arrived at. And then its business as usual.

There not one report which has been made public that shows the root of the problem, and how it was addressed.
There may be sensitivity in the immediate aftermath, but why the secrecy after 5 years? Or 10? Why not make senior heads directly accountable for repeated accidents which points to a failure of culture of safety?
Why not force the refitter and navy in this case to publish their report in a timebound fashion to at least a privileged committee of the Parliament who can steer a course correction? And make a redacted version public?

Unless there is more transparency, the people who by omission and commission had a role to play can always find convenient scapegoats, and we blunder on.

I completely agree with your sentiments. I had expressed my personal views above. Continuing in the same vein, not a rebuttal, but will try to express my views on your thoughts. Again, there's no right and wrong, just perspectives - mine as someone who's been through all of this (much more), so kindly do not take any of my thoughts as an affront.

Notion of 'it's a tough job' to shoo things away. It's a tough job - no two ways about it. But 'military-grade' exists for a reason. there is real time peril and possibly more so than anywhere else. Second part of your statement - what gives you the idea that things are shooed away - I am sure people have been sacked for the past incidents, condemned and punished, much of it is in public domain. Even the 'misfiring missile' case that you have brought up - the concerned were dismissed, SOPs changed and additional safeguards instituted (my knowledge garnered from the Times of India in this case).

Condemn the ones who actually serve on these platforms to actual tragedies. Having been there and done that, I can assure you nobody is more acutely aware of the perils than the ones actually serving onboard. It is here that the atmanirbharta needs to make an impact (though progress has indeed been made). With age-old technology, lack of homegrown support and realistic budget constraints - life is indeed a challenge. If only wishes were horses, everybody would want the latest toys, but practically, one does have to make do with old units and ships, maintaining them to the best of our ability. In fact, at one point in time, we were operating a carrier in a stellar manner/ material state 40 years past its decommssioning by a Western Navy. In this case too, the ship's design and keel is more than 50 years old.

Reports not being made public. How do we know it has not been submitted to the Parliament? Would this be conjecture? Even so, in my personal opinion, the learnings, if any, from such incidents should be disseminated within the service to all personnel. Would having a public trial a la the Trump incident, serve any additional purpose?

Observers have long since decried the absence of a de-classification policy in our country - be it the Independence movement, the four wars and the other seminal moments of our nation's history. Till such time we don't have a systemic process, I think it will be futile to expect a 'redacted' version or any version for that matter. But, it would be equally wrong to assume that nothing changes or that we continue to blunder along. Let's give people some credit.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by dust-n-bones

I'm sorry but this is of a script whenever there is bad news about our military. Whether its an incident involving aircraft, misfiring missiles, exploding submarines or, in this case a ship, we use the 'its a tough job' argument to shove the problem away, and condemn the ones who actually serve in these platforms to repeated tragedies.

You only have to go back a few pages to how the helicopter crash of CDS Vipin Rawat was defended, till a 'No one killed Jessica' moment was arrived at. And then its business as usual.

There not one report which has been made public that shows the root of the problem, and how it was addressed.
There may be sensitivity in the immediate aftermath, but why the secrecy after 5 years? Or 10? Why not make senior heads directly accountable for repeated accidents which points to a failure of culture of safety?
Why not force the refitter and navy in this case to publish their report in a timebound fashion to at least a privileged committee of the Parliament who can steer a course correction? And make a redacted version public?

Unless there is more transparency, the people who by omission and commission had a role to play can always find convenient scapegoats, and we blunder on.

You are welcome to your views but allow me to state that your response is very typical of what we Indians like to believe and chant against anything to do with the Govt. Sometimes with justification I daresay. Inquiries are conducted, causes & solutions are found and corrections put in place. What has happened to INS Brahmaputra is not flattering in the least and deserves a serious inquiry & correction but to randomly state that all is bull and swept under the carpet is bull in itself. I do not understand why these reports need to be made public? You want the Pakistanis and Chinese to know where we messed up?

Vipin Rawat's accident and this sad incident have nothing in common. If you fly in the mountains and after a while zero visibility fog descends things can happen.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

INS Brahmaputra Severely Damaged In Fire & Listing to its Side

Select list of major incidents from Wikipedia below, is this normal with other professional navies worldwide?

• August 2013: Blasts ripped through the torpedo compartment of the submarine INS Sindhurakshak while it was berthed at the naval dockyard off the Mumbai coast.
• May 2014: INS Ganga suffered a minor explosion in the boiler room ...
• June 2016: Two people, a sailor and a civilian contractor, were killed by a toxic gas leak....
• October 2021: Four sailors were injured when a fire broke out on the INS Ranvijay while it was berthed in Vishakapathanam.
• January 2022: Three sailors died and eleven others were injured when an explosion took place aboard the INS Ranvir while it was docked in Mumbai.

Of this list above the INS Sindhurakshak one is the only one that is not in the normal course of operations of a very busy Navy doing a large volume of sailing with limited surface warships. I would add the toppling of INS Betwa to this list. A warship by definition is a very tightly packed machine full of inflammable fuel, tens of tonnes of explosives and significant electrical, mechanical and electronic energy pouring around in very confined spaces. Of course accidents cannot be condoned and should not. But only if you have worked on a ship or in my case with aircraft can you realize just how many thousands of actions by dozens or hundreds of people must go exactly right each time to safely operate these machines. Some of these accidents I suspect are a function of tight budgets relative to the operational tempo. Also I would look to training standards very closely. The fact this has occurred twice points to training too. As NomadSK points out, correctly in my opinion, something clearly went wrong with the ballast arrangements. Similar accidents with two ships of the same class could mean the need for some correction in the design.

[dust-n-bones]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

You are welcome to your views but allow me to state that your response is very typical of what we Indians like to believe and chant against anything to do with the Govt. Sometimes with justification I daresay. Inquiries are conducted, causes & solutions are found and corrections put in place. What has happened to INS Brahmaputra is not flattering in the least and deserves a serious inquiry & correction but to randomly state that all is bull and swept under the carpet is bull in itself. I do not understand why these reports need to be made public? You want the Pakistanis and Chinese to know where we messed up?

Vipin Rawat's accident and this sad incident have nothing in common. If you fly in the mountains and after a while zero visibility fog descends things can happen.

Of this list above the INS Sindhurakshak one is the only one that is not in the normal course of operations of a very busy Navy doing a large volume of sailing with limited surface warships. I would add the toppling of INS Betwa to this list. A warship by definition is a very tightly packed machine full of inflammable fuel, tens of tonnes of explosives and significant electrical, mechanical and electronic energy pouring around in very confined spaces. Of course accidents cannot be condoned and should not. But only if you have worked on a ship or in my case with aircraft can you realize just how many thousands of actions by dozens or hundreds of people must go exactly right each time to safely operate these machines. Some of these accidents I suspect are a function of tight budgets relative to the operational tempo. Also I would look to training standards very closely. The fact this has occurred twice points to training too. As NomadSK points out, correctly in my opinion, something clearly went wrong with the ballast arrangements. Similar accidents with two ships of the same class could mean the need for some correction in the design.

I'm sorry, but this is again the 'tough job in a dangerous neighbourhood' defence. And that only experts would understand the complexities and the rest should trust them without accountability.
This line of defence is not applicable here. And should not be generally where public money is concerned.

This accident did not happen in combat, not at sea, but was caused by fire on the vessel when it was berthed in harbour.
To compound problems, the fire-fighters doused the fire, but flipped the ship!

To repeat, all this happened in a harbour where the ship is supposed to be the safest, and this sad story has been running on repeat in Mumbai Port for the last few years.

This reflexive urge for secrecy serves only the ones who's heads should be on the line otherwise. It does not serve the sailors, not the Navy, and certainly not us, the citizens.

As for the Chinese. They would not be doing their jobs if they've not chuckled at what is going on as they look down from the skies, from the water, from the port and from the chatter. It would be a sad day for them if they found out what's up with IN from official reports after 10 years.

We've inherited the British bureaucratic culture and reflexes which was by its nature secretive towards the natives, and were, and are, held to very different standards in their home country. We have a long way to go before this wiring problem in our DNA is fixed. Meantime, why not share findings with a privileged committe of the Parliament, and let them oversee the cleanup?

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by NomadSK

Prima facie, looks like ballasting and deballasting procedure gone wrong !!

To my untrained eyes that ship looks like a write off.

India probably tops the list for the highest number of peace time military losses.

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I'm inclined to agree that for accidents whilst in refit, there should be a public report of the investigation. Correct me if I'm wrong but the USN published the findings of the report into the fire that took down one of their LHDs whilst docked (and there were major rumblings of sabotage then as well). Why shouldn't we make public what led to this mishap? I'm pretty sure the USN redacts sensitive information before making those reports public in hearings on the Hill, so why can't the Indian armed forces? There should be scrutiny but not behind closed doors especially when it's happened more than once and when they're expensive capital vessels paid for by public funds.

On another note, given the ships age - how long would it's normal operating life have been had this mishap not happened? I ask in case there's a decision to be made about potentially expediting it's end of service life, perhaps salvaging what can be from the hull for the remaining ships of the class.

All that being said, at first glance, and taking the facts on board it does seem that this should be salvageable.

[handsofsteel]

Originally Posted by ads11

I'm inclined to agree that for accidents whilst in refit, there should be a public report of the investigation.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the USN published the findings of the report into the fire that took down one of their LHDs whilst docked (and there were major rumblings of sabotage then as well). Why shouldn't we make public what led to this mishap? I'm pretty sure the USN redacts sensitive information before making those reports public in hearings on the Hill, so why can't the Indian armed forces?

There should be scrutiny but not behind closed doors especially when it's happened more than once and when they're expensive capital vessels paid for by public funds.

On another note, given the ships age - how long would it's normal operating life have been had this mishap not happened? I ask in case there's a decision to be made about potentially expediting it's end of service life, perhaps salvaging what can be from the hull for the remaining ships of the class.

All that being said, at first glance, and taking the facts on board it does seem that this should be salvageable.

As I said before, we, as a nation, do not have this DNA of transparency. Name one single realm which is transparent. Why does one always want the government to be transparent? Rather, are you sure you want transparency in certain realms? Have you actually thought it through?

The issue of public funds and accountability is nothing more than a fig leaf. Kindly introspect slightly deeper, has accountability ever been fixed in any sphere of public life? There’s an old saying - “is hamam mein sab nange hain.”

“Expensive” capital assets? Well, I would rather say important strategic assets.

As per information publicly available, the ship’s keel was laid down in 1984, halted due to solvency issues with the shipyard, and finally commissioned in 2000. The equipment, majorly, is of the same vintage (though the ship did complete a modernisation refit in respect of its electronics suite in 2016). The design is virtually identical to the Godavari Class whose construction dates back to the late 70s. Service life of a ship is generally set out as 40 years during initial construction but being the experts in frugality, we do manage to eke out considerably more. That said, steam propulsion is a dying breed and the entire class is scheduled to be converted to diesel ships with that on Beas already underway.

What complicates the issue here is the fire, else, like it has been proven earlier with Betwa, this ship is salvageable. Using items for sister ships will probably be futile, considering the entire propulsion train is anyway going to be changed to diesels, the extent of ‘damage’ / ‘loss’ will actually require a detailed study.

[dragracer567]

It is indeed important to acknowledge the complexity of naval warfare & its equipment and appreciate the tenacity of the sailors & officers of the Indian Navy who operate these machines.

That being said, it is expected especially in a democracy that the citizenry ask tough questions when things go wrong. It is not a right but a sacred duty. Understandably, certain sensibilities, especially affairs related to national security might necessitate withholding certain information which is why we send representatives to the parliament to do this work for us, such investigations should be scrutinized by the relevant parliamentary committees.

There has been a laxity of late (or has it been always?) with not as much as an apology from the administration when bridges & roofs of airports collapsed and trains crashed into each other in the year 2024, no less! Instead, the responses have only been one of arrogance compounded by social media trolls diverting the topic using caste, religion and what not - a sad state of affairs. Our military thankfully operates to a different standard and the public has been apprised as to the cause of the various accidents recently - Brahmos, Tejas, Su-30s, C130J etc while those responsible (if any) were held accountable.

The problem with withholding information is that people always assume the worst-case scenario which almost always is less dire than the truth.

Originally Posted by Gansan

To my untrained eyes that ship looks like a write off.

Some good news on that front. Seems like the damage to the INS Brahmaputra is less than the damage to the INS Betwa which was successfully brought back to life.

The salvage will be conducted by a foreign firm, the Resolve Marine group had previously done the salvage of the INS Sindhurakshak and the INS Betwa.

Moreover, thankfully, India has more 11 frigates either on sea trials or under construction with plans for 7 more, so I assume this class of ships would probably be decommissioned within a decade - won't be a Mig-21 scenario.

Speaking of which, the first of the two INS Talwar class ships to be made in Goa, India - the INS Triput has been launched. Apart from these 2, India operates 6 Talwar class frigates with 1 more undergoing trials in Russia and another under construction in Russia.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Gansan

India probably tops the list for the highest number of peace time military losses.

We are, thanks to China and Pakistan, always in a constant state of high friction - not all out war but a war of attrition and friction each day. So let us not call this peace time. Our borders are not peaceful like say the border between France & Germany. Infact other than Israel, India has the highest state of military activity short of war per kms of border. On the border it is the Army, followed by the Air Force that faces the brunt. The Navy has been more active, often away from the public gaze, than it has ever been before in its history. While I do not condone the INS Brahmaputra accident fact is when you are in a constant state of high tempo active operations mistakes happen, accidents happen etc.

[dragracer567]

Very interesting observation by a person on X (formerly Twitter).

The INS Tabar - a Talwar Class Frigate had visited Russia for its Naval day celebrations. In the photos, we can see what clearly looks like UAV kill patches on its Shtil SAM launcher. Interestingly, it seems these patches weren’t visible as early as 28 June 2024 when the ship had visited Egypt. Offcourse, could be the case they decided to put the markings after that given that attacks so North in the Red Sea is highly improbable.

The markings look like those of Shahed-136 UAVs made and operated by Iran and I believe also the Houthi’s - apart from Russia.

Western ships and aircraft frequently shoot down drones but seems like India preferred not to publicise given its generally neutral standing in such conflicts while supporting freedom of navigation. Remains to be seen if any of other IN ships show up with these patches.

As India’s importance grows, it would become more and more difficult to avoid getting tangled in conflicts beyond our neighbourhood whether it’s the Middle East or the South China Sea.

[dragracer567]

First images of the INS Nilgiri frigate - the lead ship of its class which is now undergoing sea trials with 7 ships of its class to be commissioned in quick succession in the next few years. These ships are game changers for the Navy, almost as big as our destroyers but cheaper with only half the number of Brahmos missiles. These will probably be the among the most capable frigates worldwide expect for a bunch of European frigates which are closer in size to destroyers or even cruiser. Hope we do place additional orders on these.

Screengrab of video below:

[dragracer567]

India offers to sell up to 6 units of the Nilgiri class Frigates to Brazil

Mazagon Docks limited has offered to sell 6 units of the Nilgiri Class frigates to Brazil with transfer of technology that would operate alongside the existing smaller Tamandaré-class frigates that are under construction. By Latin American standards, the Nilgiri Class is pretty much a destroyer with this probably being among the biggest combat ships in Latin America that’s not a carrier or a dock. This would probably help both sides with Embraer winning favours in India while India’s future purchase of the Nilgiri class ships will be subsidised. However, given Brazil’s finances of late, remains to be seen.

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Originally Posted by dragracer567

India offers to sell up to 6 units of the Nilgiri class Frigates to Brazil

Very interesting deal indeed! Full transfer of technology is also a bold step. If India is serious about it's credentials of being a leader of the Global South, this would be the kind of deal where India puts it's money where it's mouth is.

I don't think it'll be lost on anybody the opportunities that'll present themselves if this opens the door to more collaboration with Embraer.

How is Embraer doing since the aborted Boeing takeover? I don't think they've had much if any success with the E Jet line. Neither have I seen much movement on the Millennium front. However they do have great expertise and if they could be brought into the fold even via a partnership with an Indian OEM in a JV route, I think that's worth exploring.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

According to this article by the Economic Times, the defense ministry is set to clear a 70,000 crore contract to build the P17B frigates - follow on of the P17A i.e the Nilgiri Class frigates. The front runners are the Mazagon Dockyards Limited (MDL) and Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE), there is also a good possibility that the orders will be split between the shipyards as with the P17A Nilgiri class frigates.

This has now been approved with the 'Acceptance of Necessity' cleared by the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) chaired by Defence Minister Rajnath Singh. This is among a slew of procurements including new Future Ready Combat Vehicles (FRCV) tanks for the Army to replace T-72s.

The P17B frigates will apparently approach 8,000 tonnes making them bigger than all our destroyers. I also read that the ubiquitous ELTA AESA radar will be replaced by a more powerful indigenous option. This was a surprise as I expected these to mild upgrades to the Nilgiri class (P17A), the size could as well be typos since this article also mentions that India is going to buy 41 predator drones but only 31 were approved. The P18 project for 10-12000 tonne destroyers will also be approved soon according to the article.

These acquisitions would make the Indian Navy bigger than all European powers and almost on par with South Korea and Japan.

[V.Narayan]

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India...e41b74ad&ei=24

Arti Sarin, a Vice Admiral, has been appointed as the overall head of the medical wings of the 3 Armed Forces. I have known her literally since the 1970s when we were neighbours in Vizag - both our fathers served in the Navy - she was a few years younger to me. She is a highly capable officer and a good mix of diplomacy and no-nonsense. Power to her.