[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by Reinhard

I'm inclined to think it’s the Delhi in the center, maintaining course while the others fork out? Good to see the old gal out-n-about. I have been trying to follow the updates about completion of her refit regularly, but hardly any photos could be found. I was making do with the ships of the Delhi class under covers at Mazgaon Docks on Google images . Obviously heavily outdated ones. Even now - not able to find any high resolution close-up shots of how the Delhi/Mumbai look now, post Brahmos conversion as well as updates to the anti-air capabilities.

Here are some images of INS Delhi post refit where the 16 KH-35E Uran SSMs are replaced by 8 Brahmos.

Image courtesy: D__Mitch (Twitter)

[arijitkanrar]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Here are some images of INS Delhi post refit where the 16 KH-35E Uran SSMs are replaced by 8 Brahmos.

Image courtesy: D__Mitch (Twitter)

Attachment 2454107

Attachment 2454108

Attachment 2454109

In addition to the BrahMos launchers, we can also see the new Oto Melara 76mm Super Rapid Gun in its stealth cupola. This replaces the older AK-100 gun present earlier on the INS Delhi.

[Reinhard]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Here are some images of INS Delhi post refit where the 16 KH-35E Uran SSMs are replaced by 8 Brahmos.

Thanks! Always happy to see the Delhi class. Pretty much the pioneering ships of advanced Indian naval ship building era. That said - also evident is the age - and the advancement in ship-building in general. Compared to the neatly integrated VLS boxes of the new frigates & destroyers - this Brahmos conversion looks such a make-shift fabrication job. No offence and no doubt about the engineering involved, just mentioning the leap that has been taken since the Delhi class. In fact - the Kashin (Rajput) conversion to Brahmos launchers looked a bit more "contemporary" thanks to how their original launchers were placed. This placement of 2 quad launchers is quite straight forward on the Delhi. Simplicity & utility over form by the looks of it (and a lot of science and engineering calculations beyond my grasping abilities of course).

Best wishes big D!

[ads11]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

https://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=28d_9B4JVZ4

Salt water corrosion is no joke, look at the state of that landing pad.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Well, the Chinese wouldn't be happy with us using their own currency to buy weapons that we could potentially use against them. This is a serious issue with non-western alternatives to USD.

I still don't follow. So you're saying that India would be doing payments in yuan/renminbi for Russian weapons? How would that work?!

[V.Narayan]

India to gift INS Kirpan, an anti-surface warfare corvette to Vietnam

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/why-...an-you-thought

In a significant move, the Indian Navy is set to gift an active duty missile corvette to Vietnam, marking the first instance of India providing a warship to a neighbor of China with a coast on the South China Sea, a region marred by territorial disputes among multiple nations. China claims over 90 percent of the South China Sea, including waters close to the coasts of neighboring countries like Vietnam, the Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei, and Taiwan. China's assertion of territorial control has led to concerns among neighboring countries and occasional conflict.

Vietnam, along with other claimant states, contests China's claims and argues that it has historical and legal evidence to support its own sovereignty. Vietnam claims sovereignty over the Paracel Islands and the Spratly Islands, both of which are also claimed by China.

In recent years, China has undertaken extensive land reclamation projects in the disputed areas, constructing artificial islands and military facilities, which has further raised concerns in Vietnam.

There have been instances of clashes between Chinese and Vietnamese coast guard vessels in the disputed waters. These encounters often involve confrontations, ramming incidents, and water cannon exchanges.

It is in this context that the Narendra Modi government's decision to gift an active warship to the Vietnamese Navy must be seen.

For years now, India has helped equip the Vietnamese Navy. In 2022, for instance, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh handed over 12 High-Speed Guard Boats to Vietnam, constructed under a $100 million Defence Line of Credit given to Vietnam by India, with the first five being built in India.

Building the capabilities of the Vietnamese Navy will ensure that China, already the dominant power in the South China Sea, does not get a free rein. A well-equipped Vietnam can challenge Chinese actions in the South China Sea and contribute to keeping the region open.

Earlier, India signed a deal with the Philippines for the supply of BrahMos missiles to enhance the Philippines' coastal defense capabilities. The Philippines, which is also a party to the South China Sea dispute, has faced coercion and intimidation from China concerning its claims in the region.

India relies heavily on the freedom of navigation and unimpeded maritime trade routes in the South China Sea for its economic interests.

Specifications of this corvette are:-

Full load displacement: 1350 tonnes

Length: 91 metres

Powerplant: 2 SEMT Pielstick diesels, two shafts, 14400 shp sustained

Speed: 25 knots+

Range: 4000 nautical miles at 16 knots

Armament: 4 x Styx D Surface to surface missiles {SS-N-2D, NATO} with a effective range of ~85 kms; 1 x 76 mm dual purpose AK176 gun; 2 x AK630 close in defense guns; 2 x SA-N-5 MANPAD SAM.


INS Kipran as she sailed out of Vizag harbour bound for Vietnam.


File photo of a Khukri class corvette to which INS Kirpan belongs showing all its armaments to good effect - from forward to aft - the 76mm gun, the four Styx missiles, and just aft of the superstructure the two AK630 gatling guns. It also sports a small heli-deck but no hangar.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

India to gift INS Kirpan, an anti-surface warfare corvette to Vietnam

Probably the first ever gift of a Surface Combatant to another country by India?

Great for diplomacy. One of my Vietnamese business clients told me once that India had gifted trains to Vietnam long ago and they were still running in Vietnam and I did not know about it.

This however is a great step up and will further help increase India's goodwill and influence in the Chinese neighborhood. The Chinese would not be happy, not that they would see this a balance shifting acquisition by the Vietnamese Navy, but enough to irritate the Chinese.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

Probably the first ever gift of a Surface Combatant to another country by India?

Combat Surface vessel yes. We had donated a large patrol vessel to Sri Lanka and another to Mauritius.

Most important gift was a Kilo class submarine to Myanmar to help balance Sino influence there.--->
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMS_Minye_Theinkhathu

Large patrol vessel to Mauritius --->
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MCGS_Barracuda

Large off shore patrol vessel to Sri Lanka
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SLNS_Sayura_(P620)

Plus some smaller patrol boats to Mauritius and Maldives.

This however is a great step up and will further help increase India's goodwill and influence in the Chinese neighborhood. The Chinese would not be happy, not that they would see this a balance shifting acquisition by the Vietnamese Navy, but enough to irritate the Chinese.

The geo-political equivalent of a dog's snarl. I hope we do more for Vietnam and Philippines in face of shameless Chinese dacoity of the South China Sea islands.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

This however is a great step up and will further help increase India's goodwill and influence in the Chinese neighborhood. The Chinese would not be happy, not that they would see this a balance shifting acquisition by the Vietnamese Navy, but enough to irritate the Chinese.

My best friend is Vietnamese and he is a Defence nerd like me, so we often discuss Defence equipment and geopolitics.

Once I shared the news of the INS Ranjit (a decommissioned Rajput class destroyer) being destroyed in an exercise as a live target. He quipped we should’ve donated this ship to them instead of wasting it like this Despite their burgeoning economy, most of their vessels are older than the ones we are decommissioning, so every bit helps. He also said there were rumours that India secretly transferred some Brahmos units which is most likely not true (since officially they are yet to buy these).

[V.Narayan]

Naval Group of France in discussion with the Indian Navy to assist India in production of Landing Platform Docks {LPD}

https://idrw.org/french-naval-group-...latform-docks/

It is believed that France & India are in discussions to enter into an agreement to design and build LPDs in India, with technology transfer from France. How's that for seriously good news at a strategic level. :-)

An LPD embarks, transports and lands a sizeable expeditionary force, typically a battalion sized unit, using landing craft and helicopters. The vessel India has specified in an RFI should have a length of 200 metres, a maximum draught of 8 metres, electric propulsion ie diesel electric probably for a top speed of ~20 knots, a cruise speed of 15 knots and a range of 10,000 nautical miles at cruise speed with reserves of 25%. It should be armed with 32 short range defensive SAMs {India's VL-Short Range SAM?}, 16 Surface to Surface Missiles, 4 x AK-630 CIWS and embark 900 troops.

The French Mistral is an ideal start point for this design. How ideal would it have been if in 2014/2015 we had picked up the two Mistral's destined for Russia. But alas.

This discussion IMHO is the right thing to have albeit 10 years late.

File photo of a Mistral class LPD

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Naval Group of France in discussion with the Indian Navy to assist India in production of Landing Platform Docks {LPD}...

The French Mistral is an ideal start point for this design. How ideal would it have been if in 2014/2015 we had picked up the two Mistral's destined for Russia. But alas.

This discussion IMHO is the right thing to have albeit 10 years late.

File photo of a Mistral class LPD

Honestly it gets my goat when I think about those orphaned Mistrals and how they ended up with Egypt of all places. No one thought Egypt would hold on to those ships long term, people figured they'd eventually find their way to the Russian Navy but no, seems they'll be used to police the Mediterranean and the Suez. With tensions with Turkey over the eastern Mediterranean, and given the military strong man govt in Cairo, not a chance they give up their new flagships with the jockeying that'll take place over EEZ rights in the area.

LPDs are probably the most useful large surface combatants available to navies given how fantastically useful they are for civilian aid in times of crises. It really is 10 years too late this news but it's good to see some news on this front. The whole tender seems to have been lost in the cupboards in the acquisition dept.

I remember one of the main sticking points for the IN was that they weren't keen on the podded propulsion system of the Mistral, instead they were adamant about having a traditional shaft and screw, the accommodating of said shaft would end up eating into the well deck area massively at the cost of utility. If the IN still digs their heels in on this, it'll take god knows how many more years to make the design changes before any steel is laid on an IN Mistral vessel.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by ads11

I remember one of the main sticking points for the IN was that they weren't keen on the podded propulsion system of the Mistral, instead they were adamant about having a traditional shaft and screw, the accommodating of said shaft would end up eating into the well deck area massively at the cost of utility.

Apparently this time, as per the news link, the RFI asks for an electric based propulsion! Even Juan Carlos family is electric as is the HMS Albion class. As you correctly point the volume saved at and below the water line is key. While one may or may not agree with several of the policies and styles of the current regime they are making all the right reforms in the Armed Forces.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Apparently this time, as per the news link, the RFI asks for an electric based propulsion! Even Juan Carlos family is electric as is the HMS Albion class. As you correctly point the volume saved at and below the water line is key. While one may or may not agree with several of the policies and styles of the current regime they are making all the right reforms in the Armed Forces.

Huh, so they've finally seen the light. Well better late than never (as is always the case with Indian defence procurement..). I really found the argument quite reductive given the fact that so much modern shipping is moving to these rotating propulsion pods below the hull instead of the traditional shaft and screw. Surely if there were inclusions for domestic yard work on any LPD order, you'd want to upskill the indigenous sector in the building and maintenance of these podded units?

This is more of a general question and possibly Jeroen/others will have more to say but how common are these podded propulsion units in civilian shipping, let alone in the military space? And wrt Indian domestic ship building, is there any prior experience with working on such designs (possibly why the deep hesitation on the part of the IN with going that route)?

An RFI is good but like with all deals, they can come up with any manner of 3 letter acronyms to signal intent but until I've seen something concrete I'll just wait. Once bitten, twice shy and all that (see the nervousness with regard to any official announcement with the Rafale M's as an eg, better to be circumspect with these proclamations).

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by ads11

Huh, so they've finally seen the light. Well better late than never (as is always the case with Indian defence procurement.

With the Govt if you observe irrational behavior then look for budgets to find the root cause.

really found the argument quite reductive given the fact that so much modern shipping is moving to these rotating propulsion pods below the hull instead of the traditional shaft and screw.

Electric propulsion is a lot more proven today than it was in c.2014. So, it is not unusual for the IN to say we prefer the tried and tested. This was diesel electric power matched to transmission via rotating pods - a two stage risk. I don't think adopting new technologies is an issue with the IN. As an illustration after the Soviet Navy we were literally the second Navy of any size to operate gas turbine powered warships on a regular basis in 1967 and by 1974 we had 8 of them - the 1200 tonne ASW frigate, the Petya class. The Royal Navy received its first operational gas turbine powered warship, HMS Amazon, a Type 21 frigate, in 1974. US Navy and French Navy got into this even later.

This is more of a general question and possibly Jeroen/others will have more to say but how common are these podded propulsion units in civilian shipping, let alone in the military space?

It might be used at times in small workhorse vessels such as tugs or those needing dynamic positioning. But on such large war vessels I think the Juan Carlos and Mistral classes were among the pioneers. I could be wrong however.

Once bitten, twice shy and all that (see the nervousness with regard to any official announcement with the Rafale M's as an e.g., better to be circumspect with these proclamations).

Only the cabinet go ahead to proceed with the Rafale M has been taken. The whole nine yards of negotiations and the million conditions in the contract that need to work over 35 to 40 years must be under way right now. As you know a defence contract for several reasons other than tenure is way more complex than most commercial ones. I think it will happen in a short time, maybe 6 months.

[handsofsteel]

Originally Posted by ads11

It really is 10 years too late this news but it's good to see some news on this front. The whole tender seems to have been lost in the cupboards in the acquisition dept.

I remember one of the main sticking points for the IN was that they weren't keen on the podded propulsion system of the Mistral, instead they were adamant about having a traditional shaft and screw, the accommodating of said shaft would end up eating into the well deck area massively at the cost of utility. If the IN still digs their heels in on this, it'll take god knows how many more years to make the design changes before any steel is laid on an IN Mistral vessel.

Its never too late for good news
The second supposition is incorrect, the proposal was not considered seriously at the highest levels because the lack of fiscal space at that time resulted in the publicly announced 'austerity measures'

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Electric propulsion is a lot more proven today than it was in c.2014. So, it is not unusual for the IN to say we prefer the tried and tested. This was diesel electric power matched to transmission via rotating pods - a two stage risk. I don't think adopting new technologies is an issue with the IN. As an illustration after the Soviet Navy we were literally the second Navy of any size to operate gas turbine powered warships on a regular basis in 1967 and by 1974 we had 8 of them - the 1200 tonne ASW frigate, the Petya class. The Royal Navy received its first operational gas turbine powered warship, HMS Amazon, a Type 21 frigate, in 1974. US Navy and French Navy got into this even later.

Perfect. As always

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

It might be used at times in small workhorse vessels such as tugs or those needing dynamic positioning. But on such large war vessels I think the Juan Carlos and Mistral classes were among the pioneers. I could be wrong however.

RMS Queen Mary2 uses azimuth podded propulsors since 2003 and was the largest cruise liner once upon a time. Its a fantastic piece of engineering.

[itwasntme]

Good to see this!

India gifts its first active warship, the INS Kirpan, to Vietnam
https://www.deccanherald.com/nationa...m-1239640.html