[Maveryq]

The Boeing CH-47F(I) Chinook Heavy Lift Tandem rotor helicopter was formally inducted into the Indian Airforce today. The 4 Chinooks join the 126 Helicopter Unit at Chandigarh.

Some pictures from the ceremony today.





Picture source: Twitter handles of Livefist and ANI

The helicopters look really neat in their livery. Some other pictures from the US.





Picture source: Twitter handles of Livefist and ANI

Though India had 4 Mil Mi 26 heavy lift helicopters, the Chinooks offer higher serviceability and also the capability to handle the Ultra Light M177 howitzers for the Himalayan Battlefields.

The IAF had faced very low serviceability of the Mil 26's earlier with only one being available anytime of the 3 possible aircrafts. Out the 4 ordered from Russia, one Mil 26 was lost in an accident where a truck was not secured properly and the helicopter crashed almost immediately upon takeoff with unfortunate loss of lives.

The Chinooks offer some advantages over the Mil 26. These snapshots of a Boeing presentation provide some details. These are sourced from Livefist website.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by Maveryq

The Boeing CH-47F(I) Chinook Heavy Lift Tandem rotor helicopter was formally inducted into the Indian Airforce today. The 4 Chinooks join the 126 Helicopter Unit at Chandigarh.

One more interesting trivia about Chinook - it is one of the fastest helicopters in the world!
https://www.airforce-technology.com/...pters-4171605/

Meanwhile, Air Chief Dhanoa's very unusual and bold statement:

Once Rafale jets come, Pakistan won’t come near LoC or border: IAF chief Dhanoa
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india...vcbSs7G6M.html

[Maveryq]

The Chinooks add to the 126 Helo Squadrons air lift capability. The existing Mil Mi 26 are massive machines and extremely powerful. As can be seen from the picture below where it is lifting a Chinook in Afghanistan.





The issue that came about was that the Chinook is capable of being transported inside the C17 Globemaster that India has and that increases the flexibility of deployment along with speed. Also some reports have mentioned that the Chinook is able to carry the howitzers with much more ease in underslung mode than the Mil Mi 26.



The Mil Mi 26 has been a work horse in the Himalayas, helping support several infrastructure projects.














Picture Source: Bharat Rakshak and others

[rrsteer]

Shocking, if some of the facts presented in the quoted article are true.

- In the Rajouri-Mendhar sector air skirmish a day after the IAF’s successful Balakot strikes, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was able to create surprise and local superiority—technological and numerical—in a chosen battlefield. It struck in daylight when least expected, and perfectly timed the changeover of IAF AWAC patrols. The outnumbered IAF pilots (12 aircraft of three vastly different types) scrambled from various bases showed the presence of mind not to walk into the ambush set for them. But they failed to deliver a deterrent punishment on PAF.

- India’s best fighter (Sukhoi Su-30s), which constitutes half of IAF’s combat force, was outranged and outgunned. They were surprised by the PAF F-16s firing their American AMRAAM missiles from so far that the Sukhois’ own radar/computer/missiles were not able to give them a “firing solution”.

- If we had a functional defence acquisition system, by now we would have built such a gap that Pakistan wouldn’t even dare a retaliation. Check out on a rarely-reported Mirage-2000 laser bomb raid to clear a Pakistani incursion across the LoC in the Machil sector in 2002. Forget retaliation, the Pakistanis pretended nothing had happened. Indian air-to-air missiles then, on both Mirage-2000s and MiG-29s, had better range than the PAF which ducked the challenge.

- How did Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman cross the LoC? He was in visual pursuit of a PAF fighter for sure. But his controller was warning him to return. He didn’t. Because he couldn’t hear. As you’d expect in 2019, the battle zone had full radio-jamming. That’s why modern fighters have secure data links. Why didn’t that MiG have it? ........That order has lately been placed. With Israel. Soon enough, all IAF fighters will have this secure data link. .....We were lucky to lose just one MiG that day.

Source: https://theprint.in/opinion/the-fact...candal/212399/

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by rrsteer

Shocking, if some of the facts presented in the quoted article are true.

Most of what is presented as facts is already known. PAF's strategy was quite clever - they sort of rushed in together, dropped bombs/fired missiles before rushing out. By the way, read the content in some of these new-gen online publications with a dash of salt -

www.theprint.in
www.thewire.in
www.thequint.com
www.scroll.in
www.huffingtonpost.in

All of them are anti-establishment websites with catchy clickbait headlines. They don't mind publishing propaganda (disguised as research) from foreign sources. Example:
https://thewire.in/security/balakot-...ellite-imagery

However, some articles on politics/ economics/social issues etc are very good. theprint.in is the best of the lot.

[V.Narayan]

That our opponents would have tried some antics soon after Balakot is entirely feasible. How ever the 'conclusions' Sekhar Gupta miraculously arrives at with zero data presented to back it is typical of mainline journalists who write on aviation & military. Clearly he has over reached himself without doing his homework - or he is writing for the eyeballs to promote his new online news portal - Print.
‎
‎How can he conclude that the Su-30MKI is outgunned and out ranked by a F-16 in this engagement unless you have gone through each radar recording and RWR (radar warning receiver) readings of the aircraft that fought on both sides. Access he will never get.


What does he mean by data link not secure on the MiG-21Bison just because Abhinandan chose to ignore the request to turn back? Does he know that every data link in such equipment is secure in some ways and no data link anywhere can be fully secure always. Does he even know which link is installed on the Bison? If the controller was telling Abhinandan to return it is fine but Abhinandan too has his own discretion as the man on the spot with visual contact - and he acted on it.

Net net a very poorly researched article with no data to back the far reaching conclusions he has picked. I respect Sekhar Gupta for his views sometimes but it is time he got a real expert to advise him next time he writes on such subjects.

If this were a car review then it starts with concluding that the Camry is worse than the Nissan Micra because he saw a Nissan overtaking a Camry on a crowded road. Then he concludes that the Camry must suck because all Camry owners have at least one more car which is not a Camry!!! And then that there is no point buying the current Camry because a new one will come next year. As a dyed in wool aviation (ex-) professional his article reads as stupidly to me as a car review like this would to you.‎

[Maveryq]

Yes, the conclusions from Shekar's article are at odds with the other commentary from the experts. One expert had mentioned that IAF uses the SU30's more power radar to set up a picture of the battle front for the other members of the aiirborne force.

This would mean that the data link was functional for images and not for voice?

A lot of conjecture is floating around and will continue to do so for a long time.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

That our opponents would have tried some antics soon after Balakot is entirely feasible. How ever the 'conclusions' Sekhar Gupta miraculously arrives at with zero data presented to back it is typical of mainline journalists who write on aviation & military. Clearly he has over reached himself without doing his homework - or he is writing for the eyeballs to promote his new online news portal - Print.‎

Fully agree. There is no way he would have conclusively known what had happened that morning. There are many such articles floating around that claim o have inside details of that engagement. It would be good to know the truth some years down the line.

‎

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

‎How can he conclude that the Su-30MKI is outgunned and out ranked by a F-16 in this engagement unless you have gone through each radar recording and RWR (radar warning receiver) readings of the aircraft that fought on both sides. Access he will never get.‎

It is very well known that the BARS radar of our Flankers are extremely capable, powerful and jam resistant too. The only thing the IAF seems to have confirmed about the engagement is firing of the AMRAAMs and shooting down of the F-16. undisciplined and trigger happy F-16 pilots fired a few AMRAAMs at our Flankers clearly in panic, disregarding the Rules of Engagement and probably firing their AMRAAMs outside their No Escape Zone parameters. The Flankers managed to evade those much vaunted AMRAAMs clearly show the skills of our pilots and capabilities of the Flanker. What is more hilarious is that the Pakis ,in the propaganda read by Maj Gen Gafoon, still claim that their JF-17 shot down a Su-30MKI!!!

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

If the controller was telling Abhinandan to return it is fine but Abhinandan too has his own discretion as the man on the spot with visual contact - and he acted on it.

Exercising his discretion meant he achieved what no other pilot in the world has done - shooting down an F-16. Eventhough the Pakis tried to paint an unconvincing picture that no missiles were fired from his Bison, and did/are doing everything to hide their F-16 loss. Someday it will be good to read or hear about the engagement from W/C Varthaman's perspective, just like the detailed and fascinating accounts of PAF fighter kills by our fighter pilots from the 1965 and 1971 wars we have now. Till then, unless there is an official version by the IAF or the pilots/AWACS & ground controllers involved, there may be just cooked up stories & rumours.

Meanwhile, here is the latest video of the shootdown doing rounds. Impossible to say if the the jet that is seen hurtling down in flames is a MiG-21 or an F-16. On the top left corner, there is another fighter contrail that is seen turning away and disappearing only to show up later with a stronger contrail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ta9vyYhtxiY

[Sridhar K]

Link to the excellent rebuttal of Couptas agenda driven drivel

[ashroy_6]

The most surprising things in this whole episode is the uncanny silence both from media and govt. regarding Abhinandan. It seems there is a complete media blackout regarding him. That's what is really surprising, knowing Modi govt, if indeed our narrative in correct Abhinandan would have been made a national hero but actually nothing has happened. On the country I feel he has been blocked by the govt and airforce from speaking to the media.

Now some may say that's how the airforce works but something is definitely not right in the govt and airforce version of this episode.

Secondly, the airforce showing missile parts of the claimed F-16 shot down is really hilarious and shocking. If indeed we shot down the F-16 show the plane parts, why show the missile part?????

Moreover, Pakistani defence spokesperson claimed that 2 Indian pilots were arrested, one was Abhinandan and the second un-named pilot was hospitalised. Do you think the Pakistani spokesperson would commit such a grave mistake. They must have doubly confirmed before coming out in media. Now conveniently both the govts are not saying anything about the 2nd pilot???? To me it looks like a face saving tactic where India is spared the humiliation in return to no escalation from Indian side against Pakistan...All thanks probably to American mediation.

These are strictly my own views. No offence to anyone what so ever.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by ashroy_6

Secondly, the airforce showing missile parts of the claimed F-16 shot down is really hilarious and shocking. If indeed we shot down the F-16 show the plane parts, why show the missile part?????

It was claimed that the downed F-16 was a twin seat F-16B, which was from the original F-16 batches delivered in the 80s and 90s. I believe they are not capable of firing AMRAAMs. It was never claimed that AMRAAM wreck is from the downed F-16.

The AMRAAM wreck is one of the few AMRAAMs fired at our fighters from their new F-16C/D Block 52s. These missiles were dodged successfully and these fell in Indian territory.

But I agree that the slience is a bit disconcerting especially because after the PN Atlantique was shot down in Kutch in 99, full details of the incident were put out and the MiG-21bis pilots - S/L Bundela and F/O Narayanan were rightly celebrated as heroes.

I am worried about the Mi-17 and its crew's tragic loss that day at or around the same time as the air skirmish taking place. If it crashed because of hostile actions, then it is not only sad but angering as well.

Originally Posted by ashroy_6

Moreover, Pakistani defence spokesperson claimed that 2 Indian pilots were arrested, one was Abhinandan and the second un-named pilot was hospitalised. Do you think the Pakistani spokesperson would commit such a grave mistake. They must have doubly confirmed before coming out in media. Now conveniently both the govts are not saying anything about the 2nd pilot???? To me it looks like a face saving tactic where India is spared the humiliation in return to no escalation from Indian side against Pakistan...All thanks probably to American mediation.

These are strictly my own views. No offence to anyone what so ever.

Maj Gen Gaffoon foolishly said they have two pilots in their custody, of which one was in the hospital and a third one was on the run. Chances are that the other two were the Paki F-16 crew. But then again, if one or both of the F-16 crew were dead, it would have come out by now. So again, there is a cloud over this also.

To add to the confusion, our own Raksha Mantri, pretty stupidly I might add, claimed on a TV channel that the govt knew the identity of the dead F-16 pilot and that he was the son of a PAF Air Marshal and it was all over social media. It has proven to be a lie as no such pilot exists and it was not expected that the RM would indulge in loose talk like this. It only gave the Pakis ammunition to laugh at us further!!!

[Maveryq]

Originally Posted by ashroy_6

Now some may say that's how the airforce works but something is definitely not right in the govt and airforce version of this episode.

I would suggest that you read the entire post from Bharat Rakshak Forum as it would help you to understand the scenario that developed.


https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/vi...php?f=3&t=7699


Regarding the missile parts shown, they were from missiles fired by the F16 (AFAIK) on the SU30MKIs. These missiles were diverted by chaff and electronic jammers which resulted in them falling on the ground in Kashmir. The PAF F16 fell in PoK and hence the debris can not be shown by India as you can understand. Jammers can impact missiles and make them behave erratically. Please see this video to understand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zg0Gd6AhqfE

Regarding the statements by DGISPR, there were several statements made during the entire period , several contradictory and these can be attributed both to psy ops mind games and also fog of war.

[Maveryq]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

But I agree that the slience is a bit disconcerting especially because after the PN Atlantique was shot down in Kutch in 99, full details of the incident were put out and the MiG-21bis pilots - S/L Bundela and F/O Narayanan were rightly celebrated as heroes.

I think this is primarily to allow the focus on him to abate a bit. Please remember the intense media circus around his house and how every little thing about him was being broadcast.


Also, given that this is election season, exposing him to media at this juncture will invite sanction from the Election Commission (probably) and also the opposition will claim that Abhinandan is being used as an election ploy by the ruling party. Given the circus that arose as a result of the shooting down, I think it is better to articulate the story at an opportune time.


Just as an example, see how the media and the opposition has reacted to the ASAT test yesterday.

[ashroy_6]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

It was claimed that the downed F-16 was a twin seat F-16B, which was from the original F-16 batches delivered in the 80s and 90s. I believe they are not capable of firing AMRAAMs. It was never claimed that AMRAAM wreck is from the downed F-16.

The AMRAAM wreck is one of the few AMRAAMs fired at our fighters from their new F-16C/D Block 52s. These missiles were dodged successfully and these fell in Indian territory.

But I agree that the slience is a bit disconcerting especially because after the PN Atlantique was shot down in Kutch in 99, full details of the incident were put out and the MiG-21bis pilots - S/L Bundela and F/O Narayanan were rightly celebrated as heroes.

I am worried about the Mi-17 and its crew's tragic loss that day at or around the same time as the air skirmish taking place. If it crashed because of hostile actions, then it is not only sad but angering as well.



Maj Gen Gaffoon foolishly said they have two pilots in their custody, of which one was in the hospital and a third one was on the run. Chances are that the other two were the Paki F-16 crew. But then again, if one or both of the F-16 crew were dead, it would have come out by now. So again, there is a cloud over this also.

To add to the confusion, our own Raksha Mantri, pretty stupidly I might add, claimed on a TV channel that the govt knew the identity of the dead F-16 pilot and that he was the son of a PAF Air Marshal and it was all over social media. It has proven to be a lie as no such pilot exists and it was not expected that the RM would indulge in loose talk like this. It only gave the Pakis ammunition to laugh at us further!!!

That's the problem, how come the airforce didn't come with specifics. If indeed F-16 was shot down at least some details would have surfaced. All we heard was some vague press conference by the airforce which led to more confusion. In this election year do you think the govt would have left any stone unturned if indeed an F-16 was shot down. The silence about this issue both from airforce and govt is quite disconcerting.

Regarding Mi-17, yes the timing was very suspicious. The death toll was increased from initial 3 to 5 later(not sure about it though). Moreover, kindly find how many pilots died in the heli crash. I don't want to speculate as I myself am not sure not there were definitely more than 2. Kindly join the dots.

Regarding Gen Gaffoon statement, I don't buy the theory that it was a mistake. It is impossible for Pakistani army not to know the identity of the hospitalised pilot. We are talking here about the TOP general of a countries army making a statement to the media. I am sure every details must be doubly checked before been presented to the media.

It's very convenient thing to brush up the whole issue by saying that it was a mistake by the general, what if it was not a mistake????

[ashroy_6]

Originally Posted by Maveryq

I think this is primarily to allow the focus on him to abate a bit. Please remember the intense media circus around his house and how every little thing about him was being broadcast.


Also, given that this is election season, exposing him to media at this juncture will invite sanction from the Election Commission (probably) and also the opposition will claim that Abhinandan is being used as an election ploy by the ruling party. Given the circus that arose as a result of the shooting down, I think it is better to articulate the story at an opportune time.


Just as an example, see how the media and the opposition has reacted to the ASAT test yesterday.

I have a different opinion here. I don't think present govt gives a hoot what the opposition or the election commission thinks. If indeed something positive would have happened govt would have gone all guns blazing.

I think ASAT test was basically done to replace the surgical strike failure. The timing is too convenient again. The govt needed some much needed PR exercise and this must have seemed perfect.