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Originally Posted by Foxbat

The story of the USAF F-117 “Vega 31” shot down by the Serbs is well known in aviation circles. But what is not widely known is a second F-117 was damaged by a Serbian Surface to Air missile but managed to make it back to base. This was only revealed in 2020 (although the Serbs claimed more F-117s shot down). Unconfirmed reports say this aircraft never flew again.

Thanks for this! I wasn't aware of a second Nighthawk getting clipped by the Serbs. Most interesting. Can see why the story was suppressed for as long as it was.

Originally Posted by FlankerFury

According to this,
https://idrw.org/disloyal-wingman-wh...wingman-drone/
A Su-57 was deployed near the Donetsk region along with an S-70 stealth drone.

Honestly I've been baffled by this whole Okhotnik shoot down, more so the fact it overwhelmingly looks like it was a friendly fire incident. There's understandably a plethora of chatter about this online with wide ranging theories. Just last night OSINT Twitter was reporting that the site of the wreckage was hit by a Russian Iskander, presumably to make sure there's nothing left of the S-70 for the Ukrainians to get their hands on. Yet at the same time there's images doing the rounds of Ukrainian ground elements scurrying off with quite a sizeable wing segment.

I'm hoping eventually the flotsam of wilder theories will settle and we'll get a better picture about what happened there. My main takeaway, or more likely questions arise from the fact that Russia was willing to commit their two most advanced air assets (if indeed it was a Felon that was following and shot down the S-70). It strikes me as odd considering just how reticent and exceedingly cautious Russia has been in the invasion so far with committing it's air assets due to the precarious air defence environment over Ukraine and the RuAF's lack of air superiority. That they'd surreptitiously field the Su-57 and S-70, not just individually but in tandem, is counter to all previous highly public instances where the Felon was wheeled out for positive optics (think the Syrian deployments in far more permissive airspace with much more visibility in terms of Russian statements to the same). Especially so if this has been going on for a while. You can imagine then why I'm quite baffled by this all.

If indeed the Russians had been fielding these LO assets contrary to general public knowledge, despite the well known nexus of air defence capabilities in Ukraine, then it does change the equation somewhat. That's an appetite for risk that erstwhile hasn't been apparent from the Russians since their opening salvo of the ground invasion. Also provides ample fodder for discussion about the capabilities or lack thereof of the LO platforms and implications for the air defence network in Ukraine. It'll be a busy day no doubt in the Pentagon and other defence command authorities as they digest this development. It's frustrating for us that we only have the muddled picture from the public domain chatter to go on for the foreseeable. Would be highly interesting to find out what exactly occurred here.

I will say that the simplest theory of it being a contingency measure to prevent an errant drone from straying too far into Ukrainian territory, confused as it was by what might've been a torrid EW environment, seems most likely imo.

My favourite quip I've come across thus far has been someone stating how the Russians were a bit too successful with the AI capability of the S-70..it was trying to defect!

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by locusjag

And all that for what and whom? I thought that air forces do not normally allow their officers to place undue stresses on the airframes by indulging in stressful maneuvers. Each airframe has what I feel to be a low number of flying hours (8000 to 10,000) by way of life span right? The Sukhoi executed a Pugachev's cobra today (among other maneuvers); that's got to shave a few hours off of the airframe's usable life span surely?

Does anybody have real insight how airframe life span is measured on fighters? I have a reasonable idea how it works on commercial planes and their engines.

Which is essentially down to cycle and run time, start/stops.

Is there anything that actually takes into account the G-forces on a fighter? I am trying to think how they would measure it and correlate to life span, but I somehow doubt that would be a meaningful exercise.

Jeroen

[SuperGirl_Dad]

Originally Posted by locusjag

Each airframe has what I feel to be a low number of flying hours (8000 to 10,000) by way of life span right? The Sukhoi executed a Pugachev's cobra today (among other maneuvers); that's got to shave a few hours off of the airframe's usable life span surely?

There are two ways to look at this. One is Airframe flying time (that will reduce), other is Pilot training/practice in highly maneuverable flying. Once heard a Blue Angles Pilot mentioning their flying does simulate combat maneuvers and helps them practice.

[locusjag]

The Su 30 and Tejas are back over Tambaram AFB today as well...spectacular stuff as usual, flares and all. But I just realized it has to do with the Oct 8th Airforce day.

[lancia_fanboy]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

I know the thread is on Combat Aircraft, but since this discussion was around engine noise experience for the lay person, I recollect a few incidents:

I have never regretted a photo op like that thus far.

Similarly, my college in Goa was next-ish to the old Airport (GOI) Dabolim, and we were pretty used to all the A320s and B737s flying in and out.
But when we used to have Tejas or Mig29Ks, they used to pause the classes for a minute or so, and sometimes we used to have 747s and C7s, and once IL-76 coming, and you could hear them 2-3 minutes earlier before they would even be overhead. It was quite a fun time for an Aviation Fan like me.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

But what is not widely known is a second F-117 was damaged by a Serbian Surface to Air missile but managed to make it back to base. This was only revealed in 2020 (although the Serbs claimed more F-117s shot down). Unconfirmed reports say this aircraft never flew again.

I would say almost shooting down two "Stealth Fighters" with the S-125 Neva/Pechora missile system by the Serbs which was designed in the 1950s couldn't be just luck. I believe thats why the poster shared by V.Narayan shows the Serbs claiming 3 F-117s, maybe after a decade or two one more loss will be confirmed !

Foxbat is bang on the money. Where an American warplane getting shot down by their adversaries goes the Americans are masters of misinformation. And as the control the media, or most of it, even we tend to accept 'facts' based on what the Western media states. The Americans are still in the misinformation stage on their losses in Vietnam. They are loathe to admit a loss to an air dog fight. So, losses in dogfights get "downgraded" to a loss by a SAM hit. Confirmed losses by a SAM are claimed to be engine failures {of the US fighter}. Even today 5 to 6 decades after the Vietnam war was fought fresh facts on fudging of US losses emerges! Serbian War is still relatively new - a mere 3 decades. By 2045 we will hear the reality of all the losses.

This habit is also seen in books and journals that write about weapons. So many British and American weapons are praised to the skies in these journals {and now internet} when reality on dependability, efficacy, design excellence, etc is very different. Mind you some of their weapon systems were/are very good, no doubt , but the tendency to overbloat your own and run down the other side is a standard practice. I have been witnessing this since circa 1975. Sticking to aircraft - English Electric Lighting, Delta Dagger, Thunderchief, Convair B-36, Lockheed Starfighter, Shorts Belfast, Convair B-58, Lockheed Galaxy.....and these are just from memory straight off the bat. If any of these had been Russian the Western press would have poured ink running them down. Rant over.

[SSridhar]

The Americans would never easily accept the loss of their aircraft. It is over years now and they still maintain that the Terrorist State of Pakistan did not lose an F-16 to an IAF MiG-21 !