[FiatDiesel]

I don’t think this will trigger even a lice on establishment’s head in our country. Despite spending 74B budget, does it actually result in innovation to match( read catch up) with the advancement of defence tech of our neighbours including but sadly even with Pakistan. There is no single person accountability on money spend, innovation and timelines.

Infact the flag bearers of critical defence research orgs in our country are found compromised in espionage.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/citie...01433-amp.html

Misfiring of critical tech laden missiles to our hostile neighbour which does only harm to us as nation.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india...38329-amp.html

Indian army UAV strays into Pakistan

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/.../112740494.cms

Critical component theft from under construction aircraft carrier Vikrant

https://www.newindianexpress.com/amp...t-2035719.html

For a positive change and advancement, a sea change is needed in entire ecosystem of defence. At present I feel it has become money churning machine legally or illegally for unspecified number of stakeholders involved.

[ZenMaster]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

If it were me, I would put a moratorium on all non-essential projects, impose a 10 year service pledge for all IIT students/staff to pool up together and implement defence technology projects in a fast and cohesive fashion.
What is the use of "nation building" institutions if they do not produce anything substantial that meets the nations needs? We need an industry/academia/Govt agency collab that the US did back in the 40s/50s/60s and propelled it to prime position in the world.

On this line, I think the govt. Should invest in creating "MITs" : Military Institute of Technology ( rather than more. IITs and NITs to appease state governments ) to bring the best and brightest minds in India exclusively for military technology capability. And why not throw in a mandatory 10-15 year Military service bonds to ensure that these minds are actually put to use.

But these Technology Development centres should work outside the purview of Babus and Politicians and the usual Government framework.

There will 1000s of young men and women willing to take that plunge. This will also in the future promote the development of a lot of Defence Entrepreneurs and to the creation of Indian Defence companies.

[BlackBeard]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

Keeping patriotism aside, it is also important to learn history, know the truth and accept the facts.

Everything is being done to hide failures by both sides and those lies and propaganda are further backed & spiced up by the media, who apart from making senseless claims and whipping up hysteria & sentiments of war, are failing to ask the tough questions, in the fear of being labelled anti-national.

Both India as well as Pakistan abide by this style of propaganda.

The Pakistanis overdo the propaganda by adding exaggerated claims to the achievements of their military. There is a hint of exaggeration on the Indian side too.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Thank you for this post. Undoubtedly a most sensible and balanced post which is a must read by all lovers of aviation. Our pride for our nation and our Air Force is not to be doubted and the best respect we can show our men in light blue uniform is to avoid jingoism and chest thumping

Originally Posted by skanchan95

The above assumption does not even matter now because it has been conclusively proven that those wreckage pictures are of the downed IAF MiG-21, not an F-16.

As of now, there is no conclusive proof that a PAF F-16 went down after combat with IAF jets.

It is difficult to make out the parachutes in the video. The puff of smokes I think have been assumed to be parachutes, but they easily be the same MiG-21 breaking up after the missile hit and the wreckage coming down as multiple pieces.

Originally Posted by skanchan95

Pakistan has a motivation to deny and hide the use of the F-16s that day, even if one didn't get shot down (the discovery of the AIM-120 wreckage in India clearly proves that PAF's claims of non-deployment of F-16s that day are false). Deploying F-16s to take revenge on behalf of terrorists would be shocking and beyond belief for rest of the world, but not India!!!

I know its a very old topic but one which I was keenly following then and still do is to find the mystery of the PAF F-16 and if it indeed was shot down by the IAF.
I came across these 2 videos by this Norwegian gentleman who has explained it very well.....the best so far honestly!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vET6...dex=25&t=1682s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0Sm...dex=24&t=1452s

Main takeaway from this topic is CONFIRMATION BIAS.....

[amoi]

It's crazy how far the Chinese have come.
And how fast.

The first fighter designed and developed in China was the J8, which flew first in 1969.
The J10 first flew in 1998
The J20 first flew in 2011
The J35 first flew in 2012
And now these two, tail-less 5th gen Fighter/Bomber and Fighter Duo in 2024.

Our Marut took to the skies in 1961, the first ever fighter jet designed, developed and made in all of Asia !
The LCA Tejas first flew in 2001
The LCA Tejas Mk1a then flew in 2024.

We have nothing beyond that.

Tejas Mk2.......still in development
TEDBF - Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter for the Navy.......still in development
AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft......still in development

When will the Indian government wake up? Our adversary has developed and designed FOUR different 5th gen aircraft while we are, yet again, looking around to buy foreign goods. How can one expect the local industry to grow and develop if the answer at the end is to just buy foreign stuff?

At least we have done a decent job in the rotorcraft space. The ALH program created good helicopter which their pilots appreciate. The LCH has also taken off, being the high altitude attack platform we made based on the learnings from operation Vijay. The IMRH (Indian Multi Role Helicopter) should also being its flight testing next year (hopefully).

We need to wake up. Our neighbor is competing with the western world while we are unable to "complete" our 4.5th gen delta.



We can do it, and we probably will. But the question is, When?

[Its_Arkk]

Originally Posted by amoi

We need to wake up. Our neighbor is competing with the western world while we are unable to "complete" our 4.5th gen delta.

We can do it, and we probably will. But the question is, When?

Our neighbor also stole lots of military data on the F35 and F22 for the development of their 5th Gen aircraft.

Also most of their planes are copies of RUS and US jets :
Chengdu J7 (Mig-21)
Chengdu J8 (SU-15)
Chengdu J10 (F16 and Israeli Lavi)
Shenyang J11/J16 (SU-27)
Shenyang J-15 (SU-33)
JF-17 (Mig-21 and F16)

[Its_Arkk]

South Korea developed the KAI T50 with help from Lockheed Martin and KAI KF-21 (4.5 gen fighter w/ capabilities to 5th gen upgrades) with help from Malaysia and Lockheed Martin.
Whereas India developed the Tejas all on its own and is developing the AMCA on its own.

[DIY410]

I think India should scrap the Tejas Mk2. Upgrade the remaining SU30MKI with GaN AESA and EW pods along with higher output engines to support them.

AMCA doesn't even have decent internal payload and I wouldn't be suprised if we do not have a single prototype built by 2030.

Concentrate the R&D on drones and engines. A drone will be tailess and since 99% of the air to air or air to ground will be done at 100km to 200km stand off distance. It can be drone with AI and large internal fuel and weapons bay. AI will take care of problem of comms being jammmed and can still carry out it's mission.

A pilot is anyway going to rely on the information display in the MFD or his helmet, so why not just use a drone with low latency link.

As Elon said drones are the future. The SpaceX starshield which is the military version of Starlink will be much bigger and have more transmission power along with various sensors like thermal. So a aircraft with low RCS will still be tracked.

[amoi]

Originally Posted by Its_Arkk

Our neighbor also stole lots of military data on the F35 and F22 for the development of their 5th Gen aircraft.

Also most of their planes are copies of RUS and US jets :

Stolen or not, they learned a lot while reverse engineering and building aircraft on their own. They learned to invest in themselves and eventually create their own stuff.

We've had licensed production of jets like the Jag and the Su30Mki, but we somehow still can't built more than 12 LCAs a year? At what point will we realize that this is not exactly a business, we shouldn't be looking at the economies of scale because there is only one primary customer, the IAF. Scale up production, only when a platform starts getting "out there" is when operator feed back will arrive and lead to further refinement and improvement.

Originally Posted by DIY410

As Elon said drones are the future. The SpaceX starshield which is the military version of Starlink will be much bigger and have more transmission power along with various sensors like thermal. So a aircraft with low RCS will still be tracked.

Elon really doesn't know what he is talking about. Drones are slow and vulnerable. They cannot make complex decisions like a human pilot. Drones might act as supplement to a combat aircraft - like the "loyal wingman".
While stealth aircraft do have a thermal signature, It is really well masked when compared to conventional combat platforms.

[FlankerFury]

Originally Posted by Its_Arkk

Our neighbor also stole lots of military data on the F35 and F22 for the development of their 5th Gen aircraft.

While I don't agree with their methods, I can't deny how impressively effective they are.

Originally Posted by Its_Arkk

Also most of their planes are copies of RUS and US jets :
Chengdu J7 (Mig-21)
Chengdu J8 (SU-15)
Chengdu J10 (F16 and Israeli Lavi)
Shenyang J11/J16 (SU-27)
Shenyang J-15 (SU-33)
JF-17 (Mig-21 and F16)

That's how the Chinese start, with copies, then they create heavily reworked versions of those copies to accomodate newer tech, user feedback and other improvements.
They've made enough copies and reworked versions now that they're capable of producing nearly everything domestically, including engines, software controls for it, composites, avionics, radars, and a tonne of other related subsystems. For instance,

Sometime in the 60's, China began recieving MiG-21 kits from USSR to assemble them domestically. As a result of the Sino Soviet split, the Chinese reverse engineered the MiG and created the J-7.

Chengdu J-7 in PLAAF livery

It stayed in production for about 50 years with numerous variants incorporating changes such as double delta wings, increased internal fuel capacity, fire control radars, updated HUDs, adoption of glass cockpits and HOTAS controls.

Bangladeshi F-7BGI showing the double delta wing design

The J-7's trainer version evolved into the JL-9 advanced trainer and light combat jet. It eliminated the nose air intakes in favour of side air intakes, it also uses a new wing, different forward fuselage and a glass cockpit.

JL-9 also known as FTC-2000

Similarly, the Shenyang J-8 was a stretched twin engine version of the J-7 serving as a long range, high altitude interceptor. This airframe was then extensively reworked to evolve into the J-8B, also known as J-8II.
The B version replaced the nose air intake for lateral intakes to accommodate a larger and powerful radar, the engines too were upgraded to more powerful ones.


Shenyang J-8


Shenyang J-8II

The Chinese copied the MiG-19 and christened it the J-6. The J-6's airframe formed the basis for the Nanchang Q5 ground attack jet. Here too the nose air intakes were moved to the sides to accommodate a radar. Larger wings were incorporated to increase lift at lower speeds.

Shenyang J-6 in PAF livery


Nanchang Q5

Originally Posted by Its_Arkk

South Korea developed the KAI T50 with help from Lockheed Martin and KAI KF-21 (4.5 gen fighter w/ capabilities to 5th gen upgrades) with help from Malaysia and Lockheed Martin.
Whereas India developed the Tejas all on its own and is developing the AMCA on its own.

Not discounting Indian efforts but, there's over 200 T50s in service with ROKAF and several other countries. The KF-21 had its first flight in 2022 and is undergoing various flight tests.
The Tejas has production constraints and even then HAL has capability to produce only 24 a year. The AMCA is still on the drawing board.

[DIY410]

Originally Posted by amoi

Elon really doesn't know what he is talking about. Drones are slow and vulnerable. They cannot make complex decisions like a human pilot. Drones might act as supplement to a combat aircraft - like the "loyal wingman".
While stealth aircraft do have a thermal signature, It is really well masked when compared to conventional combat platforms.

Elon knows what he is talking about, his other paypal founders are into defense contracts and so is Elon himself.
Did you see starship live video feed at hypersonic speeds thanks to starlink. Starshield is even more advanced.

In todays world with contested airspace, a pilot is not flying over the target and dropping bombs.
Air to Air engagements between a near peer advisory happens well over 100km range. Air to ground, even russia is launching glide bombs at 50km to 90km distance.

So the pilot is not even going to visually see the target. If so does it make a difference if he is seeing the radar screen or MFD via a secured link some where else or whether he is sitting in the cockpit with the potential of loosing their life.

Not to mention a drone can use the space utilized by the cockpit and pilot support systems for extra fuel or payload.

Stealth aircraft can easily be seen via thermal imaging. The starshield network with such sensors and other space based assets will spot them and relay the information to the aircraft/drone. The pilot or operator will then cue in on region of interest using their own radar with a concentrated beam or thermal optics.

Humans pilots will be obsolete in post AI 2035 warfare. Already AI defeats the best pilot in a simulated dog fight, even without the pilot being subjected to G forces sitting comfortably in a chair.

[NomadSK]

Originally Posted by DIY410

Humans pilots will be obsolete in post AI 2035 warfare. Already AI defeats the best pilot in a simulated dog fight, even without the pilot being subjected to G forces sitting comfortably in a chair.

If you say it's true, human pilots would be obsolete by 2035, then how the dogfight takes place, between AI's, while both pilots or do we call them operators, are sitting thousand miles away and operating joysticks? So who wins, a team with better AI, my birds brain can't comprehend, interesting times. I would love such wars where no lives would be lost. Thanks Elon.

[Its_Arkk]

Originally Posted by DIY410

Elon knows what he is talking about, his other paypal founders are into defense contracts and so is Elon himself.
Did you see starship live video feed at hypersonic speeds thanks to starlink. Starshield is even more advanced.

In todays world with contested airspace, a pilot is not flying over the target and dropping bombs.
Air to Air engagements between a near peer advisory happens well over 100km range. Air to ground, even russia is launching glide bombs at 50km to 90km distance.

So the pilot is not even going to visually see the target. If so does it make a difference if he is seeing the radar screen or MFD via a secured link some where else or whether he is sitting in the cockpit with the potential of loosing their life.

Not to mention a drone can use the space utilized by the cockpit and pilot support systems for extra fuel or payload.

Stealth aircraft can easily be seen via thermal imaging. The starshield network with such sensors and other space based assets will spot them and relay the information to the aircraft/drone. The pilot or operator will then cue in on region of interest using their own radar with a concentrated beam or thermal optics.

Humans pilots will be obsolete in post AI 2035 warfare. Already AI defeats the best pilot in a simulated dog fight, even without the pilot being subjected to G forces sitting comfortably in a chair.

AI systems excel in predefined courses but struggle in with morally complex and ethical decisions.
And Autonomous drones and systems are highly reliant on secure communications and networks. Starshield or not, near-peer adversaries are actively developing electronic warfare capabilities to jam, spoof, or hack these systems whereas human pilot in a cockpit is not vulnerable to hacking, ensuring operational continuity even in contested environments where communications are degraded or denied.

You are forgetting not all combat scenarios involve simple air-to-air engagements or strikes. Close air support (CAS), search-and-rescue operations, and humanitarian missions often demand the nuanced judgment and adaptability that only humans can provide.
A drone might deliver a bomb with precision, but a pilot can assess the evolving battlefield in real-time, potentially calling off an attack to avoid civilian casualties.

In simulated dog fights there are fixed set of parameters but in the real world the situation is far more chaotic. Factors such as unexpected weather, enemy countermeasures, and malfunctioning equipment can derail AI's performance where a human pilot provide an additional layer of redundancy and resilience.
Also even if you can track a stealth fighter plane with thermal imaging from satellites and launch missles against it, its not successful as a radar lock and fighter jets have flares which are designed to emit emit a significantly stronger thermal signature than the engines of a plane for a brief period, specifically to confuse and divert heat-seeking missles.

[Gansan]

As for Chinese reverse engineering as well as new platforms. It may look like a Ferrari, but it may not quite be equal to the real thing. It may not even be half a Ferrari. Soviet/Russian engines are one thing. But their own engines? The word is their own engines right now have only 25% of the life time. None of them are combat proven. Nobody knows how they will perform if the real shooting starts.

As for our own lack of reverse engineering, I don't think we are incapable of it, but we would rather not go down that route as a matter of principle.

It is high time we stop the dilly-dallying and buy the F35s if the Americans will give it, and also join the European 6th gen fighter development programme.

[Its_Arkk]

Originally Posted by Gansan

It is high time we stop the dilly-dallying and buy the F35s if the Americans will give it, and also join the European 6th gen fighter development programme.

The F35 costs upto 115 million $ and its operating cost per hour is also very high in comparision to other planes IAF operates. India doesnt have the budget to buy and maintain them.
Also, The US wont sell F35 to countries which have S400 air defense systems from Russia. Turkey was involved in the F35 development program but was kicked out because they bought the S400 system from Russia.

And India still is in the early stages of 5th gen fighter development so 6th gen is out of the door.

[Its_Arkk]

Originally Posted by DIY410

Elon knows what he is talking about, his other paypal founders are into defense contracts and so is Elon himself.
Did you see starship live video feed at hypersonic speeds thanks to starlink. Starshield is even more advanced.

I think the USAF knows a thing or two about military aviation—certainly more than your beloved Elon. If they genuinely believed drones would replace manned military jets within the next 10 years, they wouldn’t have spent millions upgrading the 72-year-old B-52 Stratofortress to keep it operational beyond 2050, or on upgrading the F-15, or developing the F-35.

Please dont blindly believe whatever Elon spews out of his mouth !