[Redline6800]

Originally Posted by smartcat

Gentlemen, it almost looks like a done deal - F16 for IAF. We just need to add 2 and 2 together.

Lockheed Martin signs pact with Tata to make F-16 planes in India
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/59219572.cms

Tata Advanced Systems website:
http://www.tataadvancedsystems.com/

Not a done deal for sure!

This is just a preliminary announcement saying that if all goes well then these 2 companies will make the aircraft here.

No chance we will buy a combat fighter aircraft from the USA.

To keep the balance we buy transports, helicopters, surveillance aircraft from the US.

The IAF needs a fighter that will stay in service for 40 years and it is the Gripen that has more growth potential and also commonality (engine with LCA), weapons and sensors (Rafale and Mirage 2000 upgrade).

In any case this is such a complicated acquisition, it will easily take a few more years before the decision is made - deciding on the aircraft may be easy - but negotiating the best deal for India with these smooth weapons manufacturers will be protracted and long-winded.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by smartcat

Gentlemen, it almost looks like a done deal - F16 for IAF. We just need to add 2 and 2 together.

Saab still hasn't announced their Indian partner to manufacture the Gripen in India.
There was a report earlier this year that they were apparently in discussions with the Adani group to manufacture the Gripen in India.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by Redline6800

Not a done deal for sure! No chance we will buy a combat fighter aircraft from the USA.

Sure, Times of India group does not exactly have a great past when it comes to scoops like this - but don't you think something is brewing? Here is one more -
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/59274725.cms

Officials are working overtime to complete negotiations on moving the assembly line for the F-16 fighter jet to India to enable Prime Minister Narendra Modi and President Donald Trump to jointly make an announcement on the deal. While there are still too many gaps to be filled, officials are trying to finalise at least the framework before Modi travels to Washington on Saturday.

I think it is time to read up on the capabilities of F-16 Block 70

[skanchan95]

U.S. Govt approves the sale of 22 General Atomics MQ-9B Sea Guardian (maritime version of the Predator B) for the Indian Navy

WASHINGTON: The US has cleared the sale of 22 Guardian drones to India, government sources said on Thursday, a deal being termed as a "game changer" for bilateral ties ahead of Prime Minister Narendra Modi's maiden visit to Washington for his meeting with President Donald Trump.

According to the informed government sources, the decision was communicated to the Indian government and the manufacturer by the State Department on Wednesday.

The deal is estimated to be worth $2-3 billion.

"This is the first very significant sign of the Trump administration being more result oriented in its relationship with India compared to Obama administration," a source told PTI.

The sources, who requested anonymity as the deal has not been formally announced, said the sale of 22 predator drones being manufactured by General Atomics is "a game changer" for US-India relations as it operationalises the status of "major defence partner".
The designation of India being a "major defence partner" was decided by the previous Obama Administration, and formally approved by the Congress.

The State Department and the White House did not immediately respond to the questions in this regard. An official announcement is expected soon.

The Indian Navy had made the request for this intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) platform last year.
US Aerospace expert Dr Vivek Lall of General Atomics, who was pivotal in India acquiring Boeing P-8 ISR technology, is believed to have played a key role in fast tracking the decision-making process of the Trump administration.

PM Modi, who will be going to only Washington DC during his US trip, will hold talks with President Donald Trump on regional security situation as also ways to enhance cooperation in bilateral areas of strategic importance.

[SmartCat]

Woaah, looks like Eurofighter Typhoon has some serious issues.

Austria to retire Eurofighter Typhoons from 2020
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...m-2020-439130/

Austria is to phase out its fleet of 15 Tranche 1 Eurofighter Typhoons from 2020, amid a deepening row with the four-nation consortium over the cost and capability of its aircraft. Vienna in February began legal proceedings against Airbus Defence & Space and Eurofighter over alleged fraud and deception related to its near €2 billion ($2.28 billion) acquisition of the Typhoons in 2003. Airbus and the consortium deny the accusations.
But its proposed exit from Eurofighter operations from the end of the decade reveals the depth of Vienna’s dissatisfaction with the Typhoon.

The Austrian defence ministry describes the Tranche 1 Typhoons, which it received between 2005-2008, as possessing “limited equipment and significant cost uncertainty”. It says retaining the 15-strong fleet for the next 30 years would see it incur costs of between €4.4 billion and €5.1 billion ($5 billion-$5.8 billion).

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by smartcat

Woaah, looks like Eurofighter Typhoon has some serious issues.

Austria to retire Eurofighter Typhoons from 2020
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...m-2020-439130/

Germany had stopped all Eurofighter deliveries in 2015 after production quality issues surfaced. The British RAF sometime in 2011 decided that once Tranche II deliveries tart they would 'retire' Tranche I produced aircraft apparently due to service shortfalls after only a decade or so of active service. Maybe we should not beat our Tejas too much!

[SmartCat]

Only China seems to have no issues with design and development of new gen fighter aircraft. But then, Chinese state controlled media will obviously not publicize issues if they do crop up.

Anyway, here is some interesting bit of information on relative strengths and weaknesses of Indian & Chinese military (from an article on Doklam standoff) along LAC.
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/for-a...outine-1726811

The Indian Air Force has 22 airfields and is developing a network of smaller air landing grounds in the Eastern sector. The Chinese air force has 15 air bases and 27 smaller airstrips but operates at a significant disadvantage vis-a-vis the Indian Air Force. This is because all of Chinese bases in the region are located high in the Tibetan plateau which makes it impossible for the jets to take off with a full weapon load because of the rarified atmosphere. The Indian Air Force, on the other hand, does not face any such constraints. All its major bases in the region are located in the plains and IAF fighters can take off with a full fuel and weapons load, a significant operating advantage in the event of a conflict between the two countries

[SmartCat]

All manufacturing bottlenecks have been removed, HAL will produce 8 Tejas fighter jets this year.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2017/0...ieves.html?m=1



List of private industry suppliers -

Front fuselage
Dynamatic Technologies Ltd, Bengaluru
https://www.dynamatics.com/

Centre fuselage
VEM Technologies, Hyderabad
http://www.vemtechnologies.com/

Rear fuselage
Alpha Tocol, Bengaluru
http://www.alphatocol.com/

Wings
Larsen & Toubro, Coimbatore
http://www.larsentoubro.com/

Tail fin and rudder
National Aerospace Laboratory and Tata Advanced Materials Ltd.
http://www.nal.res.in/
http://www.tamlindia.com/

Avionics racks and air intakes
Lakshmi Machine Works, Coimbatore
https://www.lakshmimach.com/

Electrical panels
Amphenol, Pune
http://www.amphenol-in.com

Slats and elevons
Aequs, Belgaum
http://www.aequs.com/

Pipelines
Rangson, Mysore
http://www.rangsons-ds.com/

Precision mechanical assemblies
Sri Koteswara Cam Systems, Secunderabad.

[himanshugoswami]

Originally Posted by smartcat

All manufacturing bottlenecks have been removed, HAL will produce 8 Tejas fighter jets this year.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2017/0...ieves.html?m=1
=========
Precision mechanical assemblies
Sri Koteswara Cam Systems, Secunderabad.

Good, but still not sufficient. We need to ramp up production to 16 a year. When HAL can produce the far more complex SU30 @16 frames per year, whats stopping it from achieving the same number for Tejas, which is an in house effort.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by himanshugoswami

Good, but still not sufficient. We need to ramp up production to 16 a year. When HAL can produce the far more complex SU30 @16 frames per year, whats stopping it from achieving the same number for Tejas, which is an in house effort.

I guess assembly of Su 30 is simpler because most of the component suppliers are in Russia. For Tejas, all the Indian suppliers' production schedule needs to be matched.

Just teething troubles in the production of (mostly) indigenous fighter aircraft.

[himanshugoswami]

Originally Posted by smartcat

I guess assembly of Su 30 is simpler because most of the component suppliers are in Russia. For Tejas, all the Indian suppliers' production schedule needs to be matched.

Just teething troubles in the production of (mostly) indigenous fighter aircraft.

Maybe not. AFAIK, HAL Nasik is on record saying that they now manufacture the SU30 from raw materials, which would mean that all components and engine are manufactured by them from ground up. Honestly I find that a bit hard to digest since if HAL can really manufacture the Saturn turbofan from grounds up, then what plagues the Kaveri.

However, this is Defence and PSU culture we are talking about. They are opaque in isolation, and when these two variables come together, its is a deadly combination (of the worst kind!).

Our only hope is to have multiple private players if we want a credible MIL in the next decade or so.

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by himanshugoswami

Maybe not. AFAIK, HAL Nasik is on record saying that they now manufacture the SU30 from raw materials, which would mean that all components and engine are manufactured by them from ground up. Honestly I find that a bit hard to digest since if HAL can really manufacture the Saturn turbofan from grounds up, then what plagues the Kaveri.

However, this is Defence and PSU culture we are talking about. They are opaque in isolation, and when these two variables come together, its is a deadly combination (of the worst kind!).

Himanshu, although HAL makes Sukhoi from raw material stage, it is contractually required to import the raw material from Russia!

Ajai Shukla from Business Standard:

Business Standard spoke to HAL officials to find out why prices have risen despite an ongoing indigenisation programme that has met all its targets. The reason, it emerges, lies in the nature of the manufacturing contract signed with Sukhoi, which was to see a progressive enhancement of Indian content through four phases. Yet, even though Phase IV has recently been achieved, this provides for only limited indigenisation. While Sukhoi was bound to transfer technology for building the fighter, the contract mandates that all raw materials - including titanium blocks and forgings, aluminium and steel plates, etc - must be sourced from Russia.

This means that, of the 43,000 items that go into the Sukhoi-30MKI, some 5,800 consist of large metal plates, castings and forgings that must contractually be provided by Russia. HAL then transforms the raw material into aircraft components, using the manufacturing technology transferred by Sukhoi.

That results in massive wastage of metal. For example, a 486 kg titanium bar supplied by Russia is whittled down to a 15.9 kg tail component. The titanium shaved off is wasted. Similarly a wing bracket that weighs just 3.1 kg has to be fashioned from a titanium forging that weighs 27 kg.

Furthermore, the contract stipulates that standard components like nuts, bolts, screws and rivets - a total of 7,146 items - must all be sourced from Russia.

The reason for this, explain HAL officials, is that manufacturing sophisticated raw materials like titanium extrusions in India is not economically viable for the tiny quantities needed for Su-30MKI fighters.

http://www.business-standard.com/art...2200138_1.html

Actually, whether it is Tatra trucks or fighter planes, no genuine transfer of technology takes place when India license manufactures foreign military equipment in the country. Basically, we just assemble the stuff from imported kits and call it indigenous. After over 2 decades of "make in India", BEML made Tatra trucks continued to have Left Hand Drive, even after Vectra had launched RHD version of the same in Indian market!

On top of it, the price of the equipment supposedly made in India usually turns out to be higher than the price at which it could have been imported fully built abroad. Sukhoi itself is a good example of this as also Tatra truck. Check this:

From TOI (although not a great source for reliable defence news):

A HAL-made Sukhoi (around Rs 450 crore) also costs Rs 100 crore more than the price of the same jet imported from Russia.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/57546519.cms

About Tatra truck scandal:

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-sho...m/20120426.htm

The recent deal with Russia for supply of spares for Sukhoi also does not involve any technology transfer and we continue to remain helplessly dependent on Russians, just like we used to be for MiG spares in the olden days:

http://www.business-standard.com/art...1101525_1.html

http://idrw.org/how-russia-continues...0mki-in-india/

There is no substitute for self reliance in matters of defence but the attitude of successive governments has been lackadaisical.

Originally Posted by himanshugoswami

Our only hope is to have multiple private players if we want a credible MIL in the next decade or so.

Private sector players have been involved in defence production since decades, although more as vendors to defence PSUs. As they grow in size and capability, they can become tier 1 suppliers at par with PSUs. It's happening!

Check this:

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2017/0...-becoming.html

[SmartCat]

Just discovered that Saab has been consistently making the most beautiful fighter aircraft in the world. And as they say, if an aircraft looks good, it flies well!

Cool names too - DRAKEN, VIGGEN, GRIPEN

SAAB DRAKEN
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_35_Draken







SAAB VIGGEN
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_37_Viggen







SAAB GRIPEN
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS_39_Gripen





OK, maybe they were not THAT consistent - presenting the Saab Tunnan!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_29_Tunnan

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by smartcat

SAAB VIGGEN
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_37_Viggen

Interesting to note, India wanted to buy the Saab 37 Viggen in 1978 but the US blocked it:

From Wikipedia " In 1978, the United States blocked a major prospective sale to India, which would have involved selling a number of Swedish-built Viggens in addition to a licensed production agreement under which the Viggen would also have been built in India, by not issuing an export license for the RM8/JT8D engine and other American technologies used.India later opted to procure the SEPECAT Jaguar in its place.According to leaked US diplomatic cables, India's interest in the Viggen was reported to be entirely due to Rajiv Gandhi's influence, and had alleged have been without any input from the Indian Air Force.According to author Chris Smith, the Viggen had been the favoured candidate for the Indian Air Force prior to the deal being blocked by the US"

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

Interesting to note, India wanted to buy the Saab 37 Viggen in 1978 but the US blocked it:

From Wikipedia " In 1978, the United States blocked a major prospective sale to India, which would have involved selling a number of Swedish-built Viggens in addition to a licensed production agreement under which the Viggen would also have been built in India, by not issuing an export license for the RM8/JT8D engine and other American technologies used.India later opted to procure the SEPECAT Jaguar in its place.According to leaked US diplomatic cables, India's interest in the Viggen was reported to be entirely due to Rajiv Gandhi's influence, and had alleged have been without any input from the Indian Air Force.According to author Chris Smith, the Viggen had been the favoured candidate for the Indian Air Force prior to the deal being blocked by the US"

Thank you for sharing this. The facts as I remember them in the 1970s following the process avidly in the print media are as follows -- The IAF loved the Sepecat Jaguar from the get go, when the prototype flew in 1968, as a replacement for the Canberra. In fact the IAF was the first foreign AF to test fly it in around 1969-1970 or so. In 1974 we were seriously thinking of going ahead but the oil crises of October 1973 put paid to our plans. When in 1975/1976 the bid evaluation was launched the Mirage F.1, Jaguar and Viggen were shortlisted after rejecting the Sukhoi Su-17 and the Tu-22 (not to be mistaken for the Tu-22M which was a altogether different machine). The IAF was really serious only about Sepecat and Saab but brought in Dassault to keep Sepecat and Saab honest. It was a close run thing. Viggen had superior avionics, all weather capability, a meaningful power to weight ratio but only moderate lo-lo flying comfort. The Jaguar had two engines (albeit underpowered initially), okay avionics (but still way better than the Canberras and Mig-21MF's) and very good fast lo-lo flying characteristics due to its high wing loading. Chris Smith is being too optimistic. Before the IAF made a choice the US threw a fit as the engine was derived from the US JT8D. The British PM James Callaghan flew into Delhi. The Brits were very flexible and agreed to work with us on what became the our DARIN programme and ship us 14 aircraft from RAF stocks to get it into service immediately.

Originally Posted by smartcat

Just discovered that Saab has been consistently making the most beautiful fighter aircraft in the world. And as they say, if an aircraft looks good, it flies well!

Aircraft worth admiring any day. I love the Tunnan. It was the most under publicized of the first generation jets (Mig-15, Gloster Meteor, Hawker Seahawk, Grumman Cougar, Dassault Ouragan etc) but in my opinion the best all rounder of that era. The Lansen, Draken, Viggen & Gripen were path breakers in military concept and hardware for their time (don't get me started or I'll be writing till mid-night). All this from a nation of 10 million. Hats of to them.

Originally Posted by smartcat

All manufacturing bottlenecks have been removed, HAL will produce 8 Tejas fighter jets this year.

Some one please wake me up from this sad dream. In 1981 we were producing/assembling 30 to 36 Mig-21's a year from HAL. 8 Tejas in 2017 is a cruel joke on the IAF. Question - Is the bottle neck (i)budgets or (ii) vendors supply chain or (iii) HAL or (iv) a reluctant IAF.