[directinjection]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Assembled from kits.

Where engines and avionics go no selling nation be it Russia, France, Israel, UK or USA ever transfers technology in any meaningful way. The closest we came to getting to the manufacture from raw materials on engines was with the MiG-21's R-25 and R-11 programmes. And that too was not 100%. If this is something different I will be pleasantly surprised.

In so far as the Su30 and its engines are concerned, HAL was doing more than just assembling CKD kits. The contract with Russia provided for progression in the kind of work done at HAL, with HAL initially only assembling CKD kits but later on progressing towards full manufacture from raw material stage. However, in doing so, HAL was contractually bound to import all the raw materials from Russia. I suspect the contract for MiG 21 must have contained similar restrictions.

Here's what defence writer Col. Ajai Shukla wrote on the subject in 2015:

How “Make in India” plays out is evident from the Sukhoi-30MKI assembly line in Nashik, where Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) builds the air force’s frontline fighter. While negotiating the contract for 180 Su-30MKIs in the year 2000 (which later went up to 272 fighters) India --- the world’s largest operator of this aircraft --- employed all the leverage it had to extract technology from Russia. Even so, just 51 per cent of the fighter (by cost) is made in India. Russia insisted that all raw material --- including 5,800 titanium blocks and forgings, aluminium and steel plates, etc. --- be sourced from that country. Similarly, HAL builds the fighter’s giant AL-31FP engines in Koraput, Odisha, but is bound by the contract to import 47 per cent of the engine (by cost), including high-tech composites and special alloys --- crucial secrets that Russia will not part with.

Source: https://www.ajaishukla.com/2015/01/m...-in-india.html

Earlier, he had written:

Business Standard spoke to HAL officials to find out why prices have risen despite an ongoing indigenisation programme that has met all its targets. The reason, it emerges, lies in the nature of the manufacturing contract signed with Sukhoi, which was to see a progressive enhancement of Indian content through four phases. Yet, even though Phase IV has recently been achieved, this provides for only limited indigenization. While Sukhoi was bound to transfer technology for building the fighter, the contract mandates that all raw materials --- including titanium blocks and forgings, aluminium and steel plates, etc --- must be sourced from Russia.

This means that, of the 43,000 items that go into the Sukhoi-30MKI, some 5,800 consist of large metal plates, castings and forgings that must contractually be provided by Russia. HAL then transforms the raw material into aircraft components, using the manufacturing technology transferred by Sukhoi.

That results in massive wastage of metal. For example, a 486 kilogramme titanium bar supplied by Russia is whittled down to a 15.9 kg tail component. The titanium shaved off is wasted. Similarly a wing bracket that weighs just 3.1 kg has to be fashioned from a titanium forging that weighs 27 kg.

HAL being a commercial organization, the economic viability of manufacturing locally is also required to be factored in.

“For raw materials production to be commercially viable, India’s aerospace companies would need to produce in larger volumes. That means they must become global suppliers, as a part of a major aerospace company’s global supply chain. Licensed manufacture for our own needs does not create adequate demand,” says Daljeet Singh, HAL Nashik’s manufacturing head.

Source: https://www.ajaishukla.com/2014/04/a...hoi-30mki.html

While China has been successfully reverse engineering Russian-origin military planes and their engines, we have made no such attempts, out of fear of displeasing the Russians. The costs involved in undertaking massive reverse engineering of complex items must also be a deterrent I'm sure, given how our Finance Ministry behaves when asked for funds.

Many years ago, our Ordnance Factory Board was hugely successful in making an indigenous reverse engineered AK-47 which was an instant hit with the armed forces but Mikhail Kalashnikov, the inventor of the gun made a hue and cry when he saw the unauthorized version on display at the defence expo in Delhi and threatened to take legal action. Thereafter, OFB agreed to pay him royalty. Now of course, the AK series is made by an Indo-Russian joint venture legally.

[Fuldagap]

Originally Posted by directinjection

Many years ago, our Ordnance Factory Board was hugely successful in making an indigenous reverse engineered AK-47 which was an instant hit with the armed forces but Mikhail Kalashnikov, the inventor of the gun made a hue and cry when he saw the unauthorized version on display at the defence expo in Delhi and threatened to take legal action. Thereafter, OFB agreed to pay him royalty. Now of course, the AK series is made by an Indo-Russian joint venture legally.

An AK 47 Russian built/sourced is the real deal. All others are just plain rip offs. Also the ammunition is quite cheap/pathetic, especially the Indian ones. Our western neighbour has a lot of Russian sourced/smuggled/stolen AKs and it is an envy.

[itwasntme]

Indian leased MQ-9B ditches off Chennai - unsalvageable.

https://www.deccanherald.com/india/d...bengal-3197300

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by itwasntme

Indian leased MQ-9B ditches off Chennai - unsalvageable.

https://www.deccanherald.com/india/d...bengal-3197300

There’ve been some interesting crashes of American origin equipment in Indian service, the other one being the hard landing of an IAF Apache in the Himalayas due to ‘loss of power’ and could potentially be written off as the wreckage is stranded at a high altitude and our Mi-26s aren’t operational. It is an perplexing dilemma if the Apaches can’t be operated at high altitudes reliably, especially when the indigenous albeit smaller and much lighter Prachand is available that’s designed for high altitude warfare.

Back to the MQ-9, it seems the Americans have to replace it since it’s on lease. Another interesting point is that the fact that these drones are operated by American pilots. So, a big chuck of Indian maritime surveillance and even naval military ops (like the special forces attack on a hijacked vessel which was monitored by these drones) are monitored by American operators (military or civil?)? Strange given India and the US aren’t even contractual allies.

[itwasntme]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

as the wreckage is stranded at a high altitude and our Mi-26s aren’t operational. Another interesting point is that the fact that these drones are operated by American pilots.

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/in...dakh-on-truck/

Recently dismantled and all removable parts shipped to Leh by defence personnel. Seems now only the engine and airframe remains.

Interesting that we are still wetleasing the Predators. Am assuming these are US military contractors and not serving US military personnel.

Thought by now India would have transitioned to at least some Indian operators as part of the deal.

Another update on this:
https://www.aninews.in/news/national...20240919201826

[SSridhar]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Another interesting point is that the fact that these drones are operated by American pilots. So, a big chuck of Indian maritime surveillance and even naval military ops (like the special forces attack on a hijacked vessel which was monitored by these drones) are monitored by American operators (military or civil?)? Strange given India and the US aren’t even contractual allies.

True. The history of these two MQ-9Bs is that they came at Indian request, probably in late 2020 or January 2021 as surveillance tools along and deep-inside the Chinese troop formations in Ladakh as well as in IOR. And, there were no trained operators in the IN. When the regular MQ-9Bs come, these will be withdrawn and no more operators from General Atomics.

On the question of not being 'contractual allies', again very true, but the situation demanded it and we had to do so in our own interests. Much similar to Russians being on board the Chakras.

Unrelated to this, the QUAD has extensive maritime security component in which all four members share phenomenal information already and work very closely.

[SmartCat]

It does not matter if US military personnnel or civilians are piloting these drones. It is unlikely they will be wandering off in Indian Ocean on their own. They will have specific missions to undertake, that will showcase the ability of the drones to Indian Navy.

And yes, QUAD members share naval data/intelligence among eachother already, after India signed the 'COMCASA' agreement. The navies are 'interoperable' now as they use common platform (Boeing P-8 Poseidon, MQ-9B etc)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundational_agreement

[skanchan95]

The IAF has successfully retrieved the AH-64E which crash landed in April in Ladakh.

It will be repaired at a BRD.

[locusjag]

I live close to the East Tambaram airforce base on Chennai. Usually there's only trainer aircraft whizzing overhead.

Today - there's a Mig 29 or a Su 30 booming overhead. Lovely.

Edit: It has to be a Su 30 MKI. I can see its twin canards. Dad is using his birding camera to take pics, will post them here later.

The occasion has to be for aerobatics practise, ahead of the October 6th airshow to be held in Chennai. There's a lot of superb maneuvers on display right now.

Edit 2: Now there's a Tejas or a Mirage 2000 buzzing us. I'm happy. I'm also feeling ashamed that I can't tell what it is exactly- having ignored my aviation passions of late.

Edit 3: I'm giddy as a high teenager, so ignore my several edits. Couldn't spot the nose pitot that Mirages typically have. Nor could I spot the Mirage's characteristic air intakes.

[FlankerFury]

Originally Posted by locusjag

I live close to the East Tambaram airforce base on Chennai. Usually there's only trainer aircraft whizzing overhead.

Edit 2: Now there's a Tejas or a Mirage 2000 buzzing us. I'm happy. I'm also feeling ashamed that I can't tell what it is exactly- having ignored my aviation passions of late.

Edit 3: I'm giddy as a high teenager, so ignore my several edits. Couldn't spot the nose pitot that Mirages typically have. Nor could I spot the Mirage's characteristic air intakes.

Must be great to see such a variety of planes, living near Lohegaon airbase in Pune, all I see is Su-30's and civilian airliners

I'd bet it's the Tejas, one of the first squadrons of the LCA was based out of Sulur Airbase. Although it could very well be a Mirage because the two have identical shapes.


Here's the Tejas,


and this is the Mirage.

[locusjag]

Here are a few pics. My dad is good at editing pics, not so with me. Mainly, I know that zooming in and saving pics is doable. But he can only be bothered to do that if spots a black-headed Ibis, not a Sukhoi or Tejas. He has already gone downstairs to read the newspapers. So here I am, with pics resized on MS paint and ultimately botched quality-wise. Sadly, I don't have time to figure out how to use dad's Nikon picture editing tool!

Anyhow, head to Chennai's Marina beach on October 6th folks. The real show will happen there - this is just a trailer for us.

[SmartCat]

From this angle & with pilot in the foreground, Su30MKI looks huge!

[ads11]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

From this angle & with pilot in the foreground, Su30MKI looks huge!

Attachment 2661253

Flankers don't just look huge they are huge!

There's so many amusing shots of them alongside other fighters and then you realise how big they are.

[FlankerFury]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

From this angle & with pilot in the foreground, Su30MKI looks huge!

Attachment 2661253

The Flankers ARE huge. The length alone is like 70 feet, here's a picture of it alongside the LCA and a Hawk trainer.

https://x.com/lca_tejas_/status/1591114447967637504

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by FlankerFury

The Flankers ARE huge. The length alone is like 70 feet, here's a picture of it alongside the LCA and a Hawk trainer.

The Su-30MKI is indeed the biggest fighter to have seen service in the IAF. The Mig-25 was close in size but we only operated the reconnaissance variant.

Reposting a photograph from the Scale Model aircraft thread, all models are 1/72 scale in size and assembled by me during the Covid times.

From the top Su-30, Mig-25, Mig-29, Ouragan, Sea Harrier.
2nd row is Mirage 2000, Mig-21, Rafael, Mig-27 and Mig-23.