[aim120]

Going against a S300 and BUK m1 is a challenge even for the US airforce and Israel. Nato jets have been shot down in Yugoslavia with even dated air defense, this is because the air defense are well camouflaged under tree cover or building cover, they switch ON the radar only when they hear a jet flying overhead or have other intelligences about the flight path.

In ukraine, the BUK m1 and S300 have to be first detected. Its upto the spy satellites and local intelligence to figure out the location.

Ukraine rely on Nato Awacs for the role of search radar, they get the info via starlink satellites. Only when they know the RuAF planes are near them, will they then switch on the tracking radar.

In the oct 10 russian strikes. The sheer number of missiles flying from russian air craft meant that the Ukraine forces had to turn ON the search and tracking radar but even in Kiev they where scared to turn the radar ON for more then a few seconds, in fear of Russian anti- Radiation missiles.

Also note that US provided HARM missiles have failed miserably against modern Russian air defense, since these system can defend themselves. So unless you do a saturation attack, these anti radiation missiles have negligeable effect in near peer advsery.

Now russians are using the cheap Iranian drones to force ukraine to deplete their Anti air missiles and also in the process revealing the locations of this.

So for India, we need cheap drones to saturate enemy air defense.

Those iranian drones cannot be jammed and cost BOM of less then 3k USD. The missile system shooting them down cost upwards of 1million USD.

We are not that rich or have so many missiles like Russia.

Its sad that our domestic drone tech is lagging behind even Iran.

[saikarthik]

A very, very interesting picture has emerged from the HAL's promo video on CATS warrior (Combat Air Teaming System). This is the first time, in my amateur experience of following defense related development where I could connect to the holistic picture in any promotional video. We could literally see all the dots getting connected with current and future aircrafts in development along with the HAPS(High Altitude Pseudo Satellite) and ISR drones (Intelligence, Surveillance and reconnaissance).

It also shows what each CATS warrior is capable of and how it can be configured as fire power booster or as electronic intelligence version. Then how the strike packages are made with a 4 CATS warriors and a Tejas MK II (going by the silhouette), and over that how multiple strike packages can be integrated with command and control or other assets.

[SmartCat]

A jet built by China and Pakistan may soon be the most widely operated combat aircraft in the world
https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world...ld/ar-AA14wjfq

I don't know if it was intentional, but this line is hilarious

"This is not an aircraft that is designed to compete head-to-head with the F-22, so it doesn't need the most sophisticated engines and parts," Heath said. "It's a cheap multirole budget aircraft that is suitable and probably most appealing to developing countries that are looking for a basic aircraft to either bomb their own people, like insurgents, or to carry out basic defense against similar-type countries."

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

A jet built by China and Pakistan may soon be the most widely operated combat aircraft in the world

I don't know if it was intentional, but this line is hilarious

That article claims that the JF-17 is a reliable performer. Wasn't the entire fleet grounded due to reliability issues recently + the non-availability of engines from Russia?

Prejudices aside, does this aircraft have any real operational experience? Discounting Pakistan's claim of using the JF-17 to shoot down our Mig-21 during the 2019 skirmish offcourse.

It's really hard to get an objective assessment of this aircraft due to biased opinions from both the Indian and Pakistani strategic communities.

The export options for our own Tejas is more limited thanks to all the western components - no way we can sell it to Myanmar for example (though might as well given the junta's pro-China tilt).

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

That article claims that the JF-17 is a reliable performer. Wasn't the entire fleet grounded due to reliability issues recently + the non-availability of engines from Russia?

All the troubles of JF-17 could be propaganda or disinformation spread by Indian/Western side.

We hear news about Bangladesh having issues with Chinese tanks and Myanmar having issues with Chinese submarines.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/87516127.cms

We also hear about countries grounding their Chinese Wing Long UAV fleet because of reliability issues.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/re...t-favor-193160

But if there was any truth in all this, China wouldn't have been the second largest exporter of arms in the world.
https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/20...gap-on-the-us/

[Reinhard]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

All the troubles of JF-17 could be propaganda or disinformation spread by Indian/Western side.

I'm a firm believer in this to be honest. Like you said - the Chinese are selling their military equipment aggressively. More importantly - they are inducting it in large numbers in their own armed forces - which are assertive to say the least.

While there will definitely be shortcomings or even issues with the equipment - the media tends to make it appear like cheap plastic toys in a funfair. Definitely not the case.

I'm sure the real intelligence agencies and the armed forces, are well aware of the real capabilities of these adversaries and have necessary planning in place for countering them anyway.
But anyone believing in these media articles about issues in Chinese equipment - and finding peace in those - is a fan of the Ostrich algorithm in life to say the least.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

All the troubles of JF-17 could be propaganda or disinformation spread by Indian/Western side.

But if there was any truth in all this, China wouldn't have been the second largest exporter of arms in the world.
https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/20...gap-on-the-us/

There's another way to look at it. China's export success is primarily when it comes to systems like UAVs and air defense systems where there is either no viable western counterpart or the western counterparts are much more expensive. The Russians aren't playing anymore while India is still getting ready for the party.

When it comes to Chinese fighter jets, tanks and submarines, exports of these more complex systems have been fairly limited, infact, until recently, this (less developed, at times western-sanctioned) market was primarily supplied by the Russians as the Ukraine war prevented them from exporting anything throwing the market wide open for the Chinese.

Even if there were issues, countries like Bangladesh will continue to buy Chinese tanks and fighters since that's all they can afford while countries like the UAE will continue to buy Chinese UAVs and air defense systems since these are genuinely good for what they cost. Also, one reason these issues are coming out is because countries like Pakistan and Bangladesh don't have the tightly sealed media that the Chinese have, so we seem to be more aware of the problems with Chinese weaponry from these countries.

The truth I believe lies somewhere in between, India/Western commentators do indeed exaggerate existing issues in systems like the JF-17 but that doesn't mean problems don't actually exist. Infact, the criticism against the Turkish Bayraktar drones has been non-sensical, just because Pakistan operates them.

[Vkap257]

https://youtu.be/dOHfBPtKc1k

Turkey Plans to put its own 5th Gen Fighter in production by 2030 - same as AMCA. They are however collaborating with BAE for designing of the TF-X. As per media reports, this prototype is being made after the completion of “preliminary design review”. The prototype of AMCA will be rolled out maybe by 2024 after completion of “critical design review”.

Turkey do have a leg-up in some sophisticated subsystems which are used worldwide, such as in the KAI Boramae.

Elders of teambhp combat aircraft forum - I would love to hear your views regarding this small piece.

[fhdowntheline]

i think the government's defence planners should work more to prove themselves rather than indulge in propaganda beyond a point. I would like to see them operationalise all their sanctioned strength of squadrons in the next 5 years, for example. Build fewer "unnecessary" or redundant expressways. Prioritize pending projects to full closure. The Kaveri engine has become the posterchild for "Waiting for Godot". I hope some sane heads in the establishment will keep all the politics aside and focus completely on actually achieving tangible milestones, instead of just strategizing, theorizing and re-purposing historical narratives.

[dragracer567]

Its out! The Northrop Grumman B-21 raider stealth bomber has been revealed to the public for the first time and it clearly seems influenced by the B2 bomber - built by the same company. These aircraft will apparently replace some of the strategic bombers already operated by the USAF though it's not entirely clear which ones (most likely the B1s). The B21s will apparently be super stealthy with the US DefSec Lloyd Austin claiming that "even the most sophisticated air defence systems will struggle to detect the B-21 in the sky". The first flight will be in 2023 with around 100 planned with each costing $700 million (the B2 cost $2 billion in comparison but in lower volumes) - just purchasing these aircraft would cost the US India's .

This is significant because this ensures American aerial dominance as, despite advances, neither China nor Russia has come close to fielding a comparable aircraft even though its been 25 years since the B2 spirit flew. The impact of the Ukraine war on Russia and China's persistent economic woes that would likely get a lot worse before getting better if ever (like Japan) means they would have a tough time keeping up. Should be said though that China and Russia still lead in other areas like Hypersonic missiles while China's navy seems to have caught up and perhaps in cases like destroyers, even beat the US!

At the end of the day, this is good news for India simply by virtue of being the 'enemy's enemy' with the junior superpower i.e the dragon having to spend more of their increasingly scarce resources to compete with the established and pre-eminent superpower.

Source 1
Source 2
Source 3

Image source: BBC

[dragracer567]

Two new sixth-gen fighter programs have been announced in the past few weeks:

1) GCAP or Tempest program - A collaboration between the UK, Italy and Japan.

2) FCAS program - A collaboration between France, Germany and Spain.

The GCAP looks strangely similar to the Chinese J20.

These are still early stages but there are some reports that both these programs could be merged to produce a European (+Japan) fighter which actually makes more sense by pooling resources. If not, these fighters will be the future Rafale and Typhoon.

The terminology is still confusing, what exactly is a sixth-gen fighter? What would its defining characteristics be? I know this whole 'generation' nomenclature has no bearing in real life but there has to be some defining characteristic?

If these programs do come to fruition, these fighters would be more advanced than anything produced by the US itself, not sure if the Americans are working on their own sixth-gen program given that they haven't finished inducting the F35 and ironing out its issues.

I wonder where this leaves India. We have aggressive targets for the AMCA program but can't help but wonder if these timelines are achievable, especially when countries with an established industrial base for developing fighters are forced to collaborate. I might be wrong, I hope I am but perhaps we need to introspect.

Dropping this link for those who want to read a detailed description of this program.

[sierrabravo98]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

The terminology is still confusing, what exactly is a sixth-gen fighter? What would its defining characteristics be? I know this whole 'generation' nomenclature has no bearing in real life but there has to be some defining characteristic?



I wonder where this leaves India. We have aggressive targets for the AMCA program but can't help but wonder if these timelines are achievable, especially when countries with an established industrial base for developing fighters are forced to collaborate. I might be wrong, I hope I am but perhaps we need to introspect.

1.) To the best of my knowledge, 6th generation is a very vague terminology at the moment. From what I have read on this topic so far, the following technologies are supposed to debut with 6th gen fighters:

A.) Variable Cycle engines
B.) Optional Manned Crewing
C.) Directed Energy Weapons.
D.) Combat Teaming role with multiple supporting UAVs to augment mothership capabilities.
E.) High Supersonic cruising with Hypersonic top speed capabilities.
F.) Some sort of stealth coating to defeat IRST/EOTS systems which are coming of age in 5th gen fighters.

The list includes many more such technologies but I am unable to remember more. Frankly speaking, the Europeans are just selling vapourware at the moment. They cannot skip directly to 6th gen without adequate experience with 5th gen technologies. As things stand, the Americans (with their NGAD) and the Chinese (because they are very rich and spend massively in R&D) are best placed to take point on 6th gen technologies.

2.) The 2nd iteration of the AMCA is supposed to incorporate many of the above technologies (minus the variable cycle engines). However, considering that the first flight of the AMCA is unlikely to take place before the end of this decade, I am not holding my breath.

As for collaboration with the Europeans, I only find merit in some collaboration with France/UK because of some sort of mutual understanding and respect of the each other's political processes and shared engineering history. Other European nations are too woke for their good and, more importantly, intertwined with China very deeply thus making them unreliable and untrustworthy.

[fhdowntheline]

I am actually intrigued that Turkiye is in an advanced stage of building its FGFA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_TF...edule_overview

[SmartCat]

Fascinating crash video of F-35 Short takeoff & Vertical Landing fighter jet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg560_LRKno

We can also see a demonstration of zero-zero ejection seats (zero altitude/zero speed) working as advertised.

News article:
F-35 Navy jet crashes in Fort Worth; pilot ejects 'successfully'
https://www.foxnews.com/us/navy-jet-...s-successfully

[SuperGirl_Dad]

There was a crash involving 2 active fighter jets of IAF 4 days back. There's a possibility of mid-air collision, with loss of one experienced pilot.

Probe has been ordered. Will there be any accountability?

Links:
https://indianexpress.com/article/ex...perts-8410129/

https://indianexpress.com/article/in...h-iaf-8409857/