[aim120]

The price of the new TU160M2 for the Russian defense ministry is $270M for the 2020 new order, the price of SU30SM was around $35M. Compare that to the cost of the export SU30MKI - around $100M.

Now the price for the export variant will always be higher, due to higher profits for UAC and commission for the Russian government. But in the SU30MKI case, it's also due to HAL profit for the Lego assembly.

But if the TU160M was offered for export fully built in Russia, it will be at least $350M to $400m.

In a contested air space with opponents having J20 with PL15 and S400, S300 clones, it will be shot down at really long distances. Unlike Russia, we do not have long-range stand-off cruise missiles yet and the TU160 has a negligible effect in the Russia-Ukraine war.

What we do lack in numbers is UAV/UCAV, loiter drones, long-range VLO cruise missiles, AWACS, Tankers, Growler-type jamming aircraft, Rafales, etc.

Even the so-called made-in-India quadcopter drones are still using electric motors, propellers, video transmission devices, and batteries that are made in China. So billions of dollars can be used to make industries that convert us from being assemblers to making things from scratch.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Ah yes, turns out Russia has used all their strategic bombers in Syria - the Tu-160s, the Tu-95s and the Tu-22s.

Russia really used their Syrian adventure as an opportunity to field test all their current and in-development systems across the board (Kalibr cruise missiles to frigates to the Su-57, the lot). It was a marketing opportunity too to show that the kit had passed muster in a combat setting (though some systems like the Su-57 were certainly delicately used and only really there for a very short while).

However, the stage of development at this point is anybody's guess though I wouldn't underestimate the Chinese. Based on media reports atleast, the J20 seems to be fully-operation at this point and has been deployed in along forward locations on China's frontiers unlike the Russian Su-57!

Oh the Chinese can definitely be said to be ahead of the Russians overall now. There's been sightings and rumours of them even having the 2 seat J-20 variant doing the rounds, not to mention constant discussion on whether we're beginning to see domestic WS-10 equipped J-20s coming out now.

Speaking of 5th gen fighters, another story was going around Twitter a few weeks back on the F35s. The discussion started as the US Senate identified "intelligence collection capabilities, unmanned aerial vehicles, 5G, fourth and fifth generation aircraft, and joint research and development, as areas for cooperation with India". Clearly, the F35s aren't mentioned explicitly but there is only one fifth gen US fighter that is available for export. Just like the Tu-160 story, the claims of F35s being offered to India has been going on for a couple of years now and these stories just refuse to die. I can't imagine the uproar from Ankara if the F35s are actually offered to India considering that Turkey got kicked out of the program for purchasing the same S400s that India has acquired.

Yeah no, not a chance India gets offered the F-35. We can safely rule that out (Erdogan would spit the dummy, and kinda rightly so, if the US made an exception for India on that one, not to mention the Emiratis being peeved as well). What's interesting is the collaboration being offered, it's the big point in that message.

Alternatively, it could also mean that the US would offer help on Tejas Mk-2 (the 4th gen aircraft mentioned) and AMCA (the 5th gen aircraft mentioned) since there is an emphasis on 'cooperation' rather than 'sales'.

Exactly, much more likely they offer some help on the Tejas front, and maybe just maybe on the AMCA front - I'm skeptical India would accept the help on this one given how bloody minded they've been about going it alone on key national security programmes (using the Arihant example). Maybe the US would also like to get involved on the AMCA to also keep tabs on the development of it, can't rule out there's an element of that thinking that might be involved. Personally I find it surprising India hasn't leveraged the desperation of the UK govt. and the pressing need of funds for the Tempest programme to get involved with BAE and Rolls Royce there. With the Japanese on board as well, if all things pan out, might be a solid offering down the line. The Brits would definitely welcome the investment - no two ways about it. Rather than Indian forex propping up floundering Russian development programmes, could take a punt at joint development on something like the Tempest. Rolls Royce isn't looking peachy financially speaking, but the institutional knowhow is no doubt ahead of what India's own efforts with the Kaveri are - why not rope them in to help. Historically speaking there Are ties between Indian and British defence enterprise (though this is going back to the beginning really for India). Might as well leverage our stronger hand at the moment (and by that I mean broadly speaking the relative trajectories of both countries, think we can all agree ours is on the ascendancy whereas the UK has been in a state of carefully managed decline for a while now).

Equally another platform I find interesting is KAI's KF-21 4.5 gen fighter programme. It's coming along at rather remarkable speed - they went from taxi tests at the start of July to already having done first flight within weeks! And the whole programme was only properly signed off c2015. That's really remarkable progress. The reason I find it interesting is because it's a programme designed not to jump to 5th gen right away (they're taking the gradual approach, ie, block-2 is the one to integrate more 5th gen features and then have a fully 5th gen derivative once the first tranches are ironed out), and because it's envisioned to replace a lot of the geriatric elements of the ROKAF, their F-4s and F-5s. In a sense I see parallels with many of us wishing for a home grown 4.5 gen jet replacing a vast majority of an aging air wing.

The Indonesians are in with a 20% stake but there's been rumours for a while now they're struggling with payments. I wonder if there's room for say India to step in. Again, it's just a thought. I'm not entirely sure if there's really been much collaboration between India and the ROK, but given how entrenched Korean private enterprise is in India, I'd reckon there's enough Indians and Koreans there to be familiar with the work culture of either country to manage any resultant JV vehicle. Maybe there are useful components there in this KF-21 programme that could help the Tejas and AMCA programmes.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by Reinhard

The story of Tu160s being procured for the IAF has been in circulation since almost 2 decades that I remember. Its like some comets that make a regular visit to Earth for a vista . Of course its a potent weapon system and a significant deterrent to have in one's arsenal, but then as of now I think this is best categorized as speculation.

As for the similar stories of F35, I feel there is practically no chance of the F35 being offered to India, especially given that will put the F35 in direct contact with the S400 - which in my opinion was the primary reason of the treatment that Turkey got regarding this program.

Agree with you on both, both stories refuse to die. However, I'm not sure if F35s being in direct contact to the S400s is actually a problem. The Israelis regularly fly their F35s over Syrian airspace which is monitored by Russian S400s as well. IMHO the Americans just wanted to punish the Turks for buying an S400. Russians stealing data on the F35s is probably an excuse given that the F35 will eventually fly over airspace monitored by S400s given the popularity of both.

Originally Posted by aim120

What we do lack in numbers is UAV/UCAV, loiter drones, long-range VLO cruise missiles, AWACS, Tankers, Growler-type jamming aircraft, Rafales, etc.

Couldn't agree more, it is really unwise to invest in strategic bombers when we are wanting for even basic support equipment like tankers that necessitates us to hire foreign tankers such as from the UAE or France for long-haul deployments.

Originally Posted by ads11

Yeah no, not a chance India gets offered the F-35. We can safely rule that out (Erdogan would spit the dummy, and kinda rightly so, if the US made an exception for India on that one, not to mention the Emiratis being peeved as well). What's interesting is the collaboration being offered, it's the big point in that message.

Exactly, much more likely they offer some help on the Tejas front, and maybe just maybe on the AMCA front - I'm skeptical India would accept the help on this one given how bloody minded they've been about going it alone on key national security programmes (using the Arihant example). Maybe the US would also like to get involved on the AMCA to also keep tabs on the development of it, can't rule out there's an element of that thinking that might be involved.

IIRC we took some Russian help for the Arihant program (correct me if I'm wrong). Anyway, I wouldn't be too surprised if F35s are offered to India because the Turks and Emiratis had their own niggles:

1) The Turks got kicked out probably because the S400 purchase really pissed off the Americans + F35s already fly over airspace contested by S400s (see my answer to Reinhard). Also, the Americans would prefer to ensure that the Greeks get the superior equipment.

2) The Emiratis didn't get it primarily because of apprehensions that Israel's dominance in the Middle East would get challenged, infact there is even a US law to that effect. Now, the Israelis publicly declared that they don't mind the Emiratis getting the F35 but you never know what happened behind closed doors. That and the unpopular Yemen war though the Emiratis disengaged from that war.

I should stress that I don't see India operating the F35 even if offered except perhaps, just perhaps for the Navy especially since India has a pending tender for 2 - 4 LPDs where the competitors include the French Mistral class and the Spanish Juan Carlos class - the latter of which can handle F35Bs. It's wishful thinking, I know!

Personally I find it surprising India hasn't leveraged the desperation of the UK govt. and the pressing need of funds for the Tempest programme to get involved with BAE and Rolls Royce there. With the Japanese on board as well, if all things pan out, might be a solid offering down the line. The Brits would definitely welcome the investment - no two ways about it. Rather than Indian forex propping up floundering Russian development programmes, could take a punt at joint development on something like the Tempest. Rolls Royce isn't looking peachy financially speaking, but the institutional knowhow is no doubt ahead of what India's own efforts with the Kaveri are - why not rope them in to help. Historically speaking there Are ties between Indian and British defence enterprise (though this is going back to the beginning really for India). Might as well leverage our stronger hand at the moment (and by that I mean broadly speaking the relative trajectories of both countries, think we can all agree ours is on the ascendancy whereas the UK has been in a state of carefully managed decline for a while now).

As you pointed out, there is some precedence and certainly makes sense to invest in British projects rather than Russian projects as we burnt out hands with the Su-57 and the HAL MTA.

There is some cooperation going on already, infact the combined diesel-electric engines of future Indian vessels will most probably be developed in cooperation with Rolls Royce.

India for the better part of the first 5 decades after independence has always been seen as a customer for the West, so it will take some time for them to warm up to the idea of seeing India as a partner, but I'm sure we'll be seeing more collaboration between the British and Indian defense industries which is certainly underperforming its potential.

The Indonesians are in with a 20% stake but there's been rumours for a while now they're struggling with payments. I wonder if there's room for say India to step in. Again, it's just a thought. I'm not entirely sure if there's really been much collaboration between India and the ROK, but given how entrenched Korean private enterprise is in India, I'd reckon there's enough Indians and Koreans there to be familiar with the work culture of either country to manage any resultant JV vehicle. Maybe there are useful components there in this KF-21 programme that could help the Tejas and AMCA programmes.

The thing about the KF-21 programme is that it is somewhat analogous to our own Tejas MK-2 and perhaps even the TEDBF. Offcourse, the Tejas MK-2 and the TEDBF don't even have a life-size prototype let alone its first flight but if push comes to shove, these should be ready atleast by 2030. Moreover, given that the KF-21's development is mostly done, India would likely end up as a customer rather than a developmental partner.

A lot of our future planning is yoked on the success of the Tejas MK-2 and AMCA, if these jets are actually made and are successful, it will do wonders for our defense industry + will homogenize our fleet into just 3 fighters into 2040 - Rafale, AMCA and Tejas with the Su-30 starting to retire. However, I wonder what is the point where we are forced to realize that we will have to invest in foreign programs whether with the British or the Koreans because the development of the Tejas Mk2 and AMCA drags the timeline too far into the future. I hope we never have to make that choice but you never know.

[dragracer567]

Group captain Rahul Singh has been awarded the Vayu Sena medal for flying the first Indian C17 into Kabul last year after its fall. I believe this is the first time these details have been publicised. This is professionalism at its best, landing in a hostile air zone using NVGs and interestingly Garud commandos were present in the aircraft who established the perimeter.

[ads11]

Off topic one this but I didn't know where else to ask. On my way back from work last week I spotted a convoy of heavy lift trucks carrying what looked like components of an airframe. While stopped at the lights I managed to get a photo of the final truck carrying the body shell. I was wondering if anyone could help me identify it, mostly out of curiosity. I've never quite lucked upon seeing a plane transported in this way in the flesh.

For context this was on the outskirts of Chester, about a 20 min drive from the major Airbus facility at Broughton.







Mods - please feel free to move to this a more relevant thread if necessary.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by ads11

I was wondering if anyone could help me identify it, mostly out of curiosity.

That's a BAe Hawk. When you zoom on your pic, it says "RAF center for aviation medicine"




Wiki article on this organization says they retired their BAe Hawk aircraft. That probably explains why it is on a truck right now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Ce...ation_Medicine

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

That's a BAe Hawk. When you zoom on your pic, it says "RAF center for aviation medicine"


Attachment 2347623

Wiki article on this organization says they retired their BAe Hawk aircraft. That probably explains why it is on a truck right now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Ce...ation_Medicine

...And the trailer truck in the front is carrying the (removed) wings.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

That's a BAe Hawk. When you zoom on your pic, it says "RAF center for aviation medicine"

Nice catch.

It's a Hawk T.1 to be more specific. The newer Hawk T.2(on which IAF & IN's Hawk Mk.132s are based) have a longer/extended nose.

Hawk T1:


Hawk T2:

[dragracer567]

So, the USAF has sidestepped earlier plans to phase out their entire fleet of F16s through the 2020s with F35s. Rather, upgraded F16s will continue to remain in service through 2048 which is an impressive service life considering that the first F16 flew in 1974 and was first inducted in 1978. This would mean that the USAF F16s would've flown about as long as the IAF Mig-21s towards the end of their service lives. The fleet of F16 Block 40/42s and Block 50/52s - the youngest ones in the USAF fleet will get a Center Display Unit, a Programmable Data Generator, and “several other key hardware components to modernize the aircraft.” In addition, the F-16 will receive the AN/APG-83 Active Electronically Scanned Array radar (AESA), new electronic warfare capabilities, advanced mission computer, and a communications suite upgrade that includes an updated Link-16 datalink capability. I guessing this would bring the F16s to the Block 70 Viper standard similar to the ones ordered by Bahrain, Slovakia, Taiwan etc (the F16's variant nomenclature is really confused, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

I can't help but feel that the F16 is almost ironically like a spiritual successor for the Mig-21 in the world of fighter jets - mass-produced, operated by over 25 countries from Venezuela to Norway, reliable work-house, loved by pilots and has a cult status in countries who operate them. I really wonder if the Soviets/Russians could've continued producing the Mig-21 with constant upgrades like the Americans are doing with the F16s (if only for exports) though limitations of the era are more apparent with the Mig-21s.

[SmartCat]

Because of Palm Oil clause, Tejas has a pretty good probability of winning the Malaysia deal! India is one of the largest importers of Palm Oil.

India to conclude LCA-Tejas deal with Malaysia soon
https://idrw.org/india-to-conclude-l...malaysia-soon/



HAL's ability to service Malaysian Su30s and BAe Hawk is another plus point.

Of course, China is a big palm oil importer and has the ability to service Su30s too. But because of China's shenanigans in South China Sea, Malaysia is unlikely to pick JF17s.

[goacom]

Originally Posted by ads11

Equally another platform I find interesting is KAI's KF-21 4.5 gen fighter programme. It's coming along at rather remarkable speed - they went from taxi tests at the start of July to already having done first flight within weeks! And the whole programme was only properly signed off c2015. That's really remarkable progress. The reason I find it interesting is because it's a programme designed not to jump to 5th gen right away (they're taking the gradual approach, ie, block-2 is the one to integrate more 5th gen features and then have a fully 5th gen derivative once the first tranches are ironed out), and because it's envisioned to replace a lot of the geriatric elements of the ROKAF, their F-4s and F-5s. In a sense I see parallels with many of us wishing for a home grown 4.5 gen jet replacing a vast majority of an aging air wing.

The Indonesians are in with a 20% stake but there's been rumours for a while now they're struggling with payments. I wonder if there's room for say India to step in. Again, it's just a thought. I'm not entirely sure if there's really been much collaboration between India and the ROK, but given how entrenched Korean private enterprise is in India, I'd reckon there's enough Indians and Koreans there to be familiar with the work culture of either country to manage any resultant JV vehicle. Maybe there are useful components there in this KF-21 programme that could help the Tejas and AMCA programmes.

Progress on Korea's KF-21 program has indeed been impressive. What is also very interesting is their future proofing strategy. They have set practical achievable milestones that can be done within a reasonable time period. However, they have also set the bones in to enable them to do significant upgrades in the long term. In contrast, India's program managers dither can continue to change the goal posts and aim for sun and thus perpetually delay in delivering a product.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Agree with you on both, both stories refuse to die. However, I'm not sure if F35s being in direct contact to the S400s is actually a problem. The Israelis regularly fly their F35s over Syrian airspace which is monitored by Russian S400s as well. IMHO the Americans just wanted to punish the Turks for buying an S400. Russians stealing data on the F35s is probably an excuse given that the F35 will eventually fly over airspace monitored by S400s given the popularity of both.

Couldn't agree more, it is really unwise to invest in strategic bombers when we are wanting for even basic support equipment like tankers that necessitates us to hire foreign tankers such as from the UAE or France for long-haul deployments.


IIRC we took some Russian help for the Arihant program (correct me if I'm wrong). Anyway, I wouldn't be too surprised if F35s are offered to India because the Turks and Emiratis had their own niggles:

1) The Turks got kicked out probably because the S400 purchase really pissed off the Americans + F35s already fly over airspace contested by S400s (see my answer to Reinhard). Also, the Americans would prefer to ensure that the Greeks get the superior equipment.

The Israelis like many, use false/fake electronically generated radar cross-sections that actually enhances the visibility of their fighters. Rather, Israel has the ability to jam Syrian air defenses at will. Hence, there is no issue of revealing the real electronic signatures of the F35. Likewise, the Chinese do the same with the J20 when they fly regions covered by Indian radar.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

2) The Emiratis didn't get it primarily because of apprehensions that Israel's dominance in the Middle East would get challenged, infact there is even a US law to that effect. Now, the Israelis publicly declared that they don't mind the Emiratis getting the F35 but you never know what happened behind closed doors. That and the unpopular Yemen war though the Emiratis disengaged from that war.

I suspect the Israelis probably blocked it behind closed doors. Furthermore, relations between the US and the Arab world is not very strong anymore. The US is energy independent now and does not need to make compromised deals with these petro states.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

As you pointed out, there is some precedence and certainly makes sense to invest in British projects rather than Russian projects as we burnt out hands with the Su-57 and the HAL MTA.

There is some cooperation going on already, infact the combined diesel-electric engines of future Indian vessels will most probably be developed in cooperation with Rolls Royce.

India for the better part of the first 5 decades after independence has always been seen as a customer for the West, so it will take some time for them to warm up to the idea of seeing India as a partner, but I'm sure we'll be seeing more collaboration between the British and Indian defense industries which is certainly underperforming its potential.

More than the British, it seems like the US is keenly interested in forming a stronger alliance with India. The economic ties between India and the US continue to grow, and the fast growing and highly successful Indian diaspora in the US is having an impact on influencing US polices. Last but not least, the elephant in the room, aka China makes this relationship logical.

Conversely, the Russia of today is not the USSR of the past. Russia supplies the engines for Pakistan's main fighter, the JF-17 and of course a multitude of platforms to China. One also has to wonder if Russia will be able to honor is contractual obligations due to the Ukraine war.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

A lot of our future planning is yoked on the success of the Tejas MK-2 and AMCA, if these jets are actually made and are successful, it will do wonders for our defense industry + will homogenize our fleet into just 3 fighters into 2040 - Rafale, AMCA and Tejas with the Su-30 starting to retire. However, I wonder what is the point where we are forced to realize that we will have to invest in foreign programs whether with the British or the Koreans because the development of the Tejas Mk2 and AMCA drags the timeline too far into the future. I hope we never have to make that choice but you never know.

The timelines of the Tejas 2 and specially the AMCA are just too far into the future. India needs airframes now. I wonder if the proposed transfer of manufacturing expertise with say the F16 or F18 (the latter is a better fit imo) would help jump start the aviation industry in India faster - not unlike what happened when Suzuki established their production facilities in India and help the modern auto industry take root in India. These aircraft are not the most modern and their lifetimes may be limited to maybe 2 decades at best, but it may help seed the appropriate aero eco-system in India.

[skanchan95]

First videographic confirmation of employment of AGM-88 HARMs by Ukrainian MiG-29s in combat against Russian AD systems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97T5oNoUgDI

Ukranian MiG-29 pilot Ivan dedicates this video to Major Yevgen Lysenko, his fallen brother in arms and a MiG-29 pilot, who heroically died in an aerial battle against the Russians on March 9.

"Eternal Flight, my Friend", he says to his fallen friend Major Lysenko.

Coming to the topic, we know AGM-84 Harpoon AShMs have already been integrated on our DARIN III Jaguars. If anyone wonders how hard would it to integrate an Anti-radiation missile like AGM-88 HARM on an interceptor like the MiG-29, the answer is provided by The Aviationist in his article.

No details have been provided about how the missile was integrated on the MiG-29. As we already mentioned in a previous article, integrating the missile on the MiG-29 doesn’t simply mean strapping a LAU-118A launcher and the AGM-88 missile to the MiG’s pylons, there is a lot more work that needs to be done to integrate them in the avionics and electrical systems. Also, another problem is how the Fulcrum’s pilots will perform the targeting of the missile, which usually happens through a Multi-Function Display that cannot be found in the MiG-29’s fully analogic cockpit.

Some analysts are suggesting a solution which involves a simple tablet linked to the missile to perform the targeting, possibly through the HARM in sensor mode. As the name suggests, the missile’s sensor provides the pilot with a list of emitters that are being detected, from which one is then selected for the missile about to be launched. Another mode could be the Pre-Briefed mode, however it does not seem very practical in a quickly evolving battlefield as the position of the enemy radar is programmed on the ground and cannot be changed anymore by the pilot once the aircraft takes off.

The way the AGM-88 was integrated on the MiG-29 is still not clear, especially if we consider that other assets that employ the HARM missile in SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defense) missions, use the missile as part of a system that also includes another sensor that is able to locate the enemy radar: for instance, the Tornado ECR use the ELS (Emitter Location System) to geo-locate and ID the enemy antenna that is then targeted by the HARM missile. Anyway, until some more details emerge, we can’t but notice that, in a way or another one, some engineers managed to make a Western Anti-Radiation Missile available to a MiG platform.

https://theaviationist.com/2022/08/3...eEjxITlsGmZvxs

[lancia_fanboy]

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/93914219.cms

Cabinet Committee on Security has approved Tejas Mk2 and given it 6500 crores

Also, it has given clearance to 15000 crores for AMCA.

Seems that times ahead would be interesting for Indian combat planes

[dragracer567]

I've been following the recent Pitch Black exercises that were conducted in Australia. It is a multi-lateral exercise participated by Australia, France, Germany, Indonesia, India, Singapore, Japan, Republic of Korea, UK, the Philippines, Thailand, UAE, Canada, Netherlands, Malaysia, New Zealand and the US this year. The French and the Germans especially made a whole thing about their Indo-Pacific commitment and their ability to quickly deploy to the region. The Luftwaffe even put live updates on the ferry flight to Australia. India participated with 4 Sukhoi Su-30 Mkis which were advertised in a lot of the promotional material.

The Su-30 seemingly dogfighting a Growler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e68LxwHQUY0

The open day where the participating aircraft were open for public view. The Su-30s look absolutely massive compared to its contemporaries from other countries.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aObaVauQbs&t=705s

The French helped with the refueling on the way to Australia as they had a stopover at the Sulur AFS in Tamil Nadu:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pml_l6hxw74

While the Aussies helped with the return trip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJLisq2yEJk

Seems like the Indian IL-78s are pretty much non-operational since we are increasingly seeing the IAF use refueling aircraft from friendly countries for long hauls. French and UAE A330 MRTTs were used during the Rafale delivery from France, the UAE A330 MRTTs were used again when some Su-30s flew to Egypt for an exercise and now for the Pitch Black, both the French and Aussies helped (both A330 MRTT). I'd say these three are also among India's closest international allies at this point (plus Japan). One way, it's good to have some operational cohesion with important allies - it's quite common within alliances like NATO.

The A330 MRTT has more than proved its worth to the IAF given that they seem to be refueling off more A330s than our own IL-78s these days.

[sagarpadaki]

Sulur to Melbourne is a 11 hour flight for a Widebody commercial airliner. Wonder how fast the Su30's would have covered this distance. I assume they would not be going supersonic ?