[robby0707]

No. A 737 operator might be able to take off, land and fly the plane, but not properly operate it as the systems are vastly different.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by robby0707

No. A 737 operator might be able to take off, land and fly the plane, but not properly operate it as the systems are vastly different.

Thanks. I guess the intricacies of the type certification brought to light for the general public following the 737 Max scandal made me wonder if the military variants had sufficient handling differences and characteristics that a regular 737-NG certified pilot wouldn't be allowed to fly the P-8. From what you say though, it does still sound like someone could fly one in a pinch from point A to B.

[robby0707]

Yes, I think he can. But at the same time, it's not just flaring. The P8I have a lot more role-specific systems, the most important of which are the armament systems. Handling an aircraft that can carry armament is a lot different.

[SmartCat]

Lots of interesting information about Pakistan Air Force in this article:
https://forceindia.net/feature-repor...or-shortfalls/

- PAF might eventually buy 60 J10s from China
- All weather Iron Brother friend China will NOT be equipping PAF's J10s and JF17s with their AESA radar. I think China fears that Americans will have access to it. PAF J10 and JF17 will instead have Italian AESA radars
- PAF J10s will NOT be equipped with Russian engines because Russia refused permission. Instead, PAF J10 will use Chinese engines which have a life of "only 700 hours".

[aim120]

Pakistanis were boasting at least on social media that their block 3 versions of JF17 already have AESA. But how can Pakistan afford an Italian radar.(Leonardo?)

Would other Nato countries even allow such a move, considering Pakistan now has a medium fighter from China.

Wouldn't the nato countries fear more about Chinese reverse engineering.

Also now that India has removed Leonardo from the blacklist, would they risk losing any deals with India?

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

- All weather Iron Brother friend China will NOT be equipping PAF's J10s and JF17s with their AESA radar. I think China fears that Americans will have access to it. PAF J10 and JF17 will instead have Italian AESA radars

Originally Posted by aim120

Pakistanis were boasting at least on social media that their block 3 versions of JF17 already have AESA. But how can Pakistan afford an Italian radar.(Leonardo?)

Would other Nato countries even allow such a move, considering Pakistan now has a medium fighter from China.

Wouldn't the nato countries fear more about Chinese reverse engineering.

Also now that India has removed Leonardo from the blacklist, would they risk losing any deals with India?

@aim120, I don’t think we’d ever see that happen. I mean, the Americans vetoed the sale of a helicopter engine for the Turkish T129 ATAK to be sold to Pakistan, an AESA radar is a much more sophisticated and sensitive technology. Also, keep in mind that the J10s are made in China, so the radars have to be shipped to China first - there is a greater possibility of the US agreeing to sell India a B2 bomber.

PS if the Pakistanis are indeed trying to integrate western tech into their JF17s and J10s, it’s probably because they are aware of some limitations of the Chinese systems, infact given the option, the PAF would’ve loved to have bought more F16s instead.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

, an AESA radar is a much more sophisticated and sensitive technology. Also, keep in mind that the J10s are made in China, so the radars have to be shipped to China first - there is a greater possibility of the US agreeing to sell India a B2 bomber.

FORCE India is a reputed Indian military magazine. They will not state it matter-of-factly if the news was not confirmed. This old 2020 DIPLOMAT article too mentions that Grifo AESA radar is a contender for JF17 Block III.
https://thediplomat.com/2020/01/paki...maiden-flight/

PAF is probably the biggest customer of Leonardo radars. Their F7s and Mirage III/V fleet is equipped with older Grifo radars (assembled in Pakistan too)

Would other Nato countries even allow such a move, considering Pakistan now has a medium fighter from China. Wouldn't the nato countries fear more about Chinese reverse engineering.

@aim120, I don’t think we’d ever see that happen. I mean, the Americans vetoed the sale of a helicopter engine for the Turkish T129 ATAK to be sold to Pakistan

It is probably a myth that Western countries have banned sales of military hardware to Pakistan. Remember that PAF has 4 Saab 2000 Erieye early warning radar aircraft, and have ordered 3 more.
https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/d...-saab-erieyes/

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

FORCE India is a reputed Indian military magazine. They will not state it matter-of-factly if the news was not confirmed. This old 2020 DIPLOMAT article too mentions that Grifo AESA radar is a contender for JF17 Block III.
https://thediplomat.com/2020/01/paki...maiden-flight/

PAF is probably the biggest customer of Leonardo radars. Their F7s and Mirage III/V fleet is equipped with older Grifo radars (assembled in Pakistan too)

Thank you for the correction. I’m really curious how the integration into the J10s will be done. Will the radars be shipped to China or will they be retrofitted in Pakistan? Probably the latter.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

- All weather Iron Brother friend China will NOT be equipping PAF's J10s and JF17s with their AESA radar.

Well, PAF's Karakoram Eagle AWACS( the one based on the Chinese An-12 rip- off) is equipped with a Chinese AESA radar. Now, I know a fighter AESA radar is different than an AWACS radar. But it is hard to fathom and surprising that China is not willing to share AESA radar tech with Pakistan and that Pakistani J-10s in service lack a Chinese radar and instead are operational with an Italian radar.

Secondly, what about integration of the PL-15 on the PAF J-10s(something which the Pakistanis flaunt to be Meteor's equivalent) ? Surely won't be easy politically or technically for the Pakistanis to do it on a western radar.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

Now, I know a fighter AESA radar is different than an AWACS radar. But it is hard to fathom and surprising that China is not willing to share AESA radar tech with Pakistan

My guess is that China is worried about United States taking a close look at China's fighter aircraft radars. This is NOT about US stealing China's technology (because that is silly). It has something to do with radar technical information that can help United States jam Chinese radars.

Note that whenever IAF takes Sukhois for air exercises with Western countries, both the parties use the radars in "training mode" (whatever that means). Check this:
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indi...the-uk-1204336

Both the IAF and RAF used the full capabilities of their onboard radars, albeit in training mode, which meant that actual radar frequencies used in combat conditions were never exposed for confidentiality reasons. However, the detection ranges of the radars of both aircraft were not curtailed per se. This was air combat as close to the real thing as possible.

So if this news is true, it means China does not trust Pakistan fully.

Secondly, what about integration of the PL-15 on the PAF J-10s(something which the Pakistanis flaunt to be Meteor's equivalent) ? Surely won't be easy politically or technically for the Pakistanis to do it on a western radar.

Now that is a good point!

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

FORCE India is a reputed Indian military magazine. They will not state it matter-of-factly if the news was not confirmed.

With this guy as editor who regularly posts Anti-India rhetoric I would not be too be sure of the "reputed" part.



Pravin Sawhney was a mid rank Indian army officer with 13 years of service history before he was court marshalled in 1991 for disciplinary issues. Since then he has been trying to become someone including a journalist.
He regularly writes in foreign anti-India newspapers disparaging the Indian armed forces and its government.

Some random examples:






How India Played into China's Hands on the Border Dispute
India has only to blame itself for its increasingly limited options.

01/MAR/2021
The Narendra Modi government seems to be its own worst enemy. It has willy-nilly allowed the border dispute with China to become a matter of ‘Chinese sovereignty’. Consequently, India now appears to be the aggressor. Worse, it has handed over the Ladakh narrative on a platter to China.

Source: https://thewire.in/security/how-indi...border-dispute


Why India can’t defeat Pakistan or China in a war
Pakistan has built military power, India a military force

So despite the strongman Narendra Modi at the helm, why can’t India defeat Pakistan in a war? Sawhney and Wahab make a critical distinction to win their argument. Pakistan has built military power, India a military force.

Source: https://tribune.com.pk/story/1363871...stan-china-war

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

With this guy as editor who regularly posts Anti-India rhetoric I would not be too be sure of the "reputed" part.

Yes, I follow Pravin Sawhney on twitter and I'm well aware of his anti-Modi/anti-RSS/anti-BJP diatribes. He might start singing a different tune on Indian Military after his favorite politician/party comes to power.

However, I was just trying to highlight that FORCE is not some amateur military blog. Without solid reputation within military circles, you don't get to interview somebody like Navarane:



https://forceindia.net/interview/int...sm-sm-vsm-adc/

[dragracer567]

It seems that the Su-30 MKIs won't get upgraded anytime soon. The main reasons given are:

1) The Russia-Ukraine war

2) Focus on indigenous equipment

IMHO, this is a huge setback for the Indian Air Force. We have already discussed in this thread that the SU-30 MKIs are no longer the dominant fighter in the neighborhood with Pakistan and China fielding fighters with seemingly better BVR and EW capabilities (but untested apart from the F16s). Still remains a capable platform but needs to be modernized to keep up with the rising challenges. It is expected that the Su-30s will be replaced only when the AMCA MK-II comes into production (we don't even have a prototype for the MK-1 itself yet), so that's quite a long time till when the Su-30 fleet has to stay relevant.

Apart from these, another reason might be festering doubts on Russian equipment itself following this war with the Indian brass probably accessing our own indigenous equipment might perform better. For example, while the Russians still don't have an AESA radar in a fighter jet in mass production that I know of, we already have the Uttam AESA radar which will be fitted in the latter half of our Tejas MK-1As. Also, the Astra series AAMs will probably be a more viable and dependable alternative to the Russian missiles currently being used.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

It seems that the Su-30 MKIs won't get upgraded anytime soon...

Very good points. Agreed, I feel the impact of the war and the focus on indigenisation, especially as a convenient way to wriggle out of the tricky situation the war brings about in many defence acquisition sectors, will be major reasons for cancelling the upgrade programme.

All that being said, it's a real shame - withholding upgrades can leave what constitutes a considerable bulk of the frontline IAF inventory short changed not just in the medium term, but increasingly in the short term, when looking at the regional air combat landscape.

Just have a question - if most of the later tranches of Su-30MKI's were built under license by HAL, and using the example you made of the domestic Uttam AESA: is there any possibility in the future that HAL could attempt doing an upgrade plan using its own resources? I should add I tend to view HAL with a jaundiced eye given their rather poor record of always overpromising and then consistently underdelivering. All that being said, even at a future date, should this be feasible (and I can fully imagine some HAL bigwig happily proposing such a scheme), it would meet the indigenisation initiative. Would be a decent compromise.

Like you said, if we were waiting for an AMCA Mk2, we'd be waiting decades, let alone a solitary decade at the very least, at which point the Su-30MKI will be very much long in the tooth.

Another question - how far along is the Uttam AESA? From what you say it seems that it isn't as yet operationally fielded yet on any platform, but it might be very shortly?

[DrPriyankT]

We can actually use this Russia-Ukraine crisis to almost fully upgrade the Su-30MKI at home with developed-in India components.

Firstly we have already upgraded the radios of all Su-30 MKI's post the post balakot standoff with Israeli B-Net software-defined radios. They are operable in heavy jamming environments and help in network-centric warfare. These upgrades were carried out in the Base Repair Depots of IAF.

Then under the name of Project Navchakshu, the analogue radar warning receivers are being incrementally being replaced by digital radar warning receivers which will help in enhanced situational awareness. To add to this, an indigenous podded advanced self-protection jammer and a podded dual-color missile approach warning system are also being integrated into the fleet of Sukhois. They have been developed by DRDO in conjunction with private enterprises. Also an indigenous electronic warfare suite too is being developed on the lines of the D-29 system developed for the Mig 29 upgrade program.

Just a few days back, HAL and BEL signed a memorandum of understanding for the development and integration of a homegrown infrared search and track system, to replace the Russian OLS-30.

There is also talk of the UTTAM AESA radar being upscaled to suit a heavy fighter like the Su-30MKI. The Uttam radar was designed to be a scalable radar where the TR(Transmitter-Receiver) modules can be increased to suit fighters of the light, medium, and heavy categories.

The pylons for the aircraft too are being replaced with homegrown universal pylons to carry Indian, Western, and Russian weapons. The desi pylons will be dual rack which will enable the Su-30MKI to carry almost 20 air to air missiles on its 10 pylons, with two pylons carrying the self-protection jammer and missile warning system, making it a missile truck like the F-15EX.

The Russians had also offered us the AL-41(from the Su-35) engine to re-engine the Su-30MKI, in order to meet the increased power requirements of these upgrades, however since it is being upgraded with energy-efficient and lightweight all digital technologies, and a Gallium-Nitride radar, the power requirements can now be met with the original AL-31 engines. There are rumors of a project Ganga where we are trying to manufacture the AL-31 from the raw material stage, so as to reduce our dependence on Russia for engines to power the backbone of our fleet. This is especially important in today's day and age given the Russia Ukraine crisis. Through the efforts of IAF, HAL, and DRDO we have been able to increase the mean time between overhaul and overall life of the AL-31 engine with homegrown solutions.

We are also integrating and testing many homegrown weapons with the SU-30MKI (as a matter of fact, it is the test aircraft for all desi weapons testing), like the Astra MK 1,2, and 3, SAAW, Rudram (1,2 and 3), Gaurav and Gautam glide bombs.

I personally feel the IAF has taken a mature decison to incrementally upgrade the fleet incrementally rather than for a fullscale upgrade, given the size of our fleet. It is how the Americans have upgraded their F-15, 16, and 18 fleets.

@ads11, reports suggest that ground testing of Uttam AESA for Tejas Mk1A has been completed and a Service Production Tejas is currently being integrated with an Uttam AESA for airborne testing.