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Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Ideally we need on boat at sea in the Bay of Bengal at any time with 5500 kms range ballistic missiles to cover both our unfriendly neighbours.

Aye, I think essentially once the SLBM has the range to target say Beijing from a launch position deep in the Bay of Bengal then you've ticked off all you need from your SSBN second strike capability. It also seems fairly logical that the natural territory of the SSBNs be in the Bay of Bengal given the buffer from the PN in the West and the PLAN via the Malacca Strait to the East. Though I wonder if say in an example where there's a big enough SSBN fleet to task 2 at sea at a time if they might venture further out on their patrols.

I am sure the VLS for boat nos 1 was pre-sized to accommodate the larger K-4 when it gets fully operational. In such a case the smaller missile would operate with liners.

Oh are you saying the K-15 presently operates with liners out of K-4 sized VLS for the Arihant? That would be some welcome, albeit surprising forethought. In which case it wouldn't even require a deep refit to get the K-15 onto the Arihant. Also in that case I'd imagine once the K-4 is operational there'd be no need to still operate the K-15 on the first two boats of the class surely?

I would bet my middle name this is already in quiet discussion at a serious level.

This made me chuckle, thanks. Here's hoping it's already ongoing.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by ads11

Though I wonder if say in an example where there's a big enough SSBN fleet to task 2 at sea at a time if they might venture further out on their patrols.

Hmmm! SSBNs don't like venturing out of the closest area they need to be in to hit the targets they need to. If you take a 5500 kms line from Northern most Manchuria middle of the Bay of Bengal is where the SSBN needs to be where it can hit and it can be protected. The B of B is a very large body of ocean to get lost in. The Russians even today use the {almost inland} Sea of Okhotsk, near Vladivostok, as their SSBN sanctuary.

Oh are you saying the K-15 presently operates with liners out of K-4 sized VLS for the Arihant? That would be some welcome, albeit surprising forethought. In which case it wouldn't even require a deep refit to get the K-15 onto the Arihant.

I am not saying I know anything. Just that these are principles on which ships are designed with an eye on weapon systems that are in the design works.

This made me chuckle, thanks. Here's hoping it's already ongoing.

We shall know in a few years if my middle name needs changing Instead of the French it could be the Russkies. They are very keen to retain their mindshare & market share in the Indian Naval space.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

We shall know in a few years if my middle name needs changing Instead of the French it could be the Russkies. They are very keen to retain their mindshare & market share in the Indian Naval space.

I'd count this as a partial confirmation

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I am not saying I know anything. Just that these are principles on which ships are designed with an eye on weapon systems that are in the design works.

I remember you pointing out that unlike the Russians, the IN shipbuilding directorate has historically tended to build in some wiggle room spatially on all it's surface combatants (a somewhat standard practice as it turns out). However given they did precisely the opposite with the puny elevators on the Vikrant, a small part of me worried a similar slim size option was fitted from the outset on the Arihant.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

I'd count this as a partial confirmation

Speaking of the lease of Chakra III, is that still a go? One wonders if the pressures of the Ukraine invasion might reorient Russian priorities, though hard to see how an SSN fits into the battlefield picture there. I'm guessing the lease is the same as prior ones, so does that only include the use of the SSNs by the IN for experience gathering or does the usage come with stipulations? I guess I'm thinking of the erstwhile USN LHD and it's non offensive operations barrier to use. I'd imagine something like that would've made the airwaves long ago if it was just changing the dates and version numbers on the leasing contract between the 3 iterations of the Chakra.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by ads11

Speaking of the lease of Chakra III, is that still a go? One wonders if the pressures of the Ukraine invasion might reorient Russian priorities, though hard to see how an SSN fits into the battlefield picture there. I'm guessing the lease is the same as prior ones, so does that only include the use of the SSNs by the IN for experience gathering or does the usage come with stipulations? I guess I'm thinking of the erstwhile USN LHD and it's non offensive operations barrier to use. I'd imagine something like that would've made the airwaves long ago if it was just changing the dates and version numbers on the leasing contract between the 3 iterations of the Chakra.

I assume so based on that article. But there are serious questions whether major capital transactions would even be possible with Russia in the interim due to:

1) Payment issues as we faced with the S400. The Russians prefer Yuan which we wouldn't touch even at gunpoint. UAE Dirhams and Indian Rupees are alternatives but there are limitations on what Russia can buy with these.

2) Restricted Russian manufacturing capability due to the war effort, even for a lease like the Chakra III, maintenance will be severely limited. Even in the pre-war era, the Chakra II was returned before the lease expired due to "unreliable powerplant and maintenance issues".

3) India's general silent shift towards indigenous or Western equipment though we would never acknowledge this publically.

Its genuinely possible that the S400 and Talwar class frigates might be the last capital purchases from Russia though there is still possibility of purchasing the Su-57 or Su-75 if Pakistan were to get 5th gen jets.

These nuclear submarines were primarily to familiarise Indian submarines to operating the latter indigenous SSBNs or SSNs but the last Chakra II was used in a somewhat offensive role.

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Originally Posted by dragracer567

I assume so based on that article. But there are serious questions whether major capital transactions would even be possible with Russia in the interim due to:..

Good points - it's why I was mulling over whether the latest lease deal could potentially be put on ice. Guess we'll find out in the next year or two.

3) India's general silent shift towards indigenous or Western equipment though we would never acknowledge this publically.

Its genuinely possible that the S400 and Talwar class frigates might be the last capital purchases from Russia

For sure, without saying it outright, I think there's a recognition that this shift Has happened already. I think India pulling their participation in the Felon programme was a bit of a Rubicon moment for the Russians. They'd no longer be dealing with a pliant customer essentially and there's undoubtedly been a rebalancing in the relationship since. I don't think it's beyond repair, but I think it's more circumspect now.

though there is still possibility of purchasing the Su-57 or Su-75 if Pakistan were to get 5th gen jets.

I can ruefully admit that there's a distinct possibility of this happening as a knee jerk reaction should the PAF field the J-31 for eg.

These nuclear submarines were primarily to familiarise Indian submarines to operating the latter indigenous SSBNs or SSNs but the last Chakra II was used in a somewhat offensive role.

Intriguing - a rare image of Arihant. It's interesting how different it is to the absolute chonk of a hull that Chakra II has - drives home how Arihant is the welterweight of the SSBN world considering how it displaces well under half the displacement of other operational boomers (granted the Akula is an SSN). So it sounds like beyond familiarisation, Chakra II was tasked with shadowing Arihant? That would sure present a fascinating situation for bubble heads - you'd have a relatively new sound signature from the latest SSBN alongside a known entity in the Akula class boat. I bet USN, PLAN, PN and other assets will have been listening with interest no doubt to calibrate their acoustic signature databases.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by ads11

For sure, without saying it outright, I think there's a recognition that this shift Has happened already. I think India pulling their participation in the Felon programme was a bit of a Rubicon moment for the Russians. They'd no longer be dealing with a pliant customer essentially and there's undoubtedly been a rebalancing in the relationship since. I don't think it's beyond repair, but I think it's more circumspect now.

Pardon me but what’s the Felon programme.

The India-Russia-USA triangle is going to be very tricky, India used to be junior partner of Russia in many aspects but is now more or less in an equal footing with India almost surely becoming the senior partner in 5-10 years. India has throttled its partnership in many anti-west forums like the SCO by only sending Jaishankar for heads of state summits. That said, Quad is also taking a hit with the whole Pannun allegations, apparent RAW activities in Australia (which only seem to be a minor hurdle since S. Korea was also involved in a similar fiasco) and perceived US indifference at best or meddling at worst in Bangladesh affairs. India’s geopolitical honeymoon period is ending but in the long term, it’s hard to imagine India’s future in China led blocs like BRICS and SCO. Even in the civilian arena, the Russians still supply a lot of energy and crucial nuclear technology while on the streets, Russia is hands down the more popular ally due to historic sensibilities but it’s nowhere near the kind of direct and indirect influence that Western (incld. Japan and S. Korea) countries and companies hold in the Indian market or society. The other day, I was looking at the diplomatic presence of various countries in India and the presence of the Western consulates across India are way more encompassing (with UK and US leading) than any non-West country - even small countries like The Netherlands which has as many consulates as Russia. We’ve more diplomatic activity shown publicly with the West followed by the Gulf than our very own Neighbourhood.

So it sounds like beyond familiarisation, Chakra II was tasked with shadowing Arihant? That would sure present a fascinating situation for bubble heads - you'd have a relatively new sound signature from the latest SSBN alongside a known entity in the Akula class boat. I bet USN, PLAN, PN and other assets will have been listening with interest no doubt to calibrate their acoustic signature databases.

That would surely be the case. The Arihant class are essentially practice vessels anyway with incremental advances before the 13,500 tonne SSBNs start rolling in. Should be sufficient as a deterrent for Pakistan and somewhat for China. I’d bet that the 13,500 tonne SSBNs would also include some form of deterrence against the US as in the long term, it’s not impossible to think that a US India great power competition might prop up, keep in mind that China was US’ partner against the Soviets at one point as well. It’s just human nature.

[FlankerFury]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Pardon me but what’s the Felon programme.

The Su-57 development program. NATO reporting name for the Su-57 is Felon.

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Originally Posted by dragracer567

Pardon me but what’s the Felon programme.

My bad, I was referring to the Su-57/PAK-FA programme by it's NATO reporting name.

The India-Russia-USA triangle is going to be very tricky...

Very well put! I concur fully. I think India has long since lost its geopolitical honeymoon period. It's time now for the diplomatic corps to earn their keep - which is why it's more critical than ever to bolster their numbers. It's astonishing how the increasingly global footprint of India's geopolitical activities is run by a skeleton crew of IFS and IAS officers relatively speaking. I know diplomacy is considered one order removed from defence but in a sense it's a first order component to implementing defensive strategy and in that sense you'd think there's ample justification to strengthen the ranks.

That would surely be the case. The Arihant class are essentially practice vessels anyway with incremental advances before the 13,500 tonne SSBNs start rolling in. Should be sufficient as a deterrent for Pakistan and somewhat for China.

It sure seems that way. In fact if we go back to the fundamental upscaling principles of the Naval Design Directorate as alluded to in V.Narayan's seminal IN Shipbuilding thread (pretty sure it was the one that roped me into creating an account on here), then you'd see how the Arihant being a subscale boomer before the full fat version ties in with that philosophy. The fact that a decrepit North Korean Romeo class sub fitted with an ICBM is enough of a nuisance for the USN, JMSDF and ROKN to devote attention to is proof enough that a SSBN-lite so-to-speak would serve as an effective part of the nuclear triad against India's primary antagonists.

I’d bet that the 13,500 tonne SSBNs would also include some form of deterrence against the US as in the long term, it’s not impossible to think that a US India great power competition might prop up, keep in mind that China was US’ partner against the Soviets at one point as well. It’s just human nature.

For sure - you'd have to be incredibly naive to think any partnership is permanent, the only exception being the Portuguese keeping up their end of the Napoleonic era pact with the Brits! It's not hard to imagine that, should a Pax Indica come to pass and say India finds itself breathing down the neck of the US in terms of being the biggest economy globally, the winds on the Hill will change with respect to sentiment about India. It happened to post war Japan though that was less great power conflict, but it's happening now with China, where that Is great power conflict along all domains (territorially, economically, culturally, philosophically). I imagine in this hypothetical scenario, US rebalancing against an Indian resurgence or market competition will take the shape of that post war Japanese boom time based competition. Because it's hard to imagine India having any extra territorial ambitions, or at least exercising any intent in it's immediate neighbourhood along those lines.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by ads11

It's astonishing how the increasingly global footprint of India's geopolitical activities is run by a skeleton crew of IFS and IAS officers relatively speaking.

Not to delve too much into diplomacy/geopolitics in a submarine thread but indeed, the shortage in India's diplomatic corps is quite appalling. India has less missions than much smaller countries like Brazil, Turkey & Italy. This is being slowly rectified thankfully with more missions opening every year.

I imagine in this hypothetical scenario, US rebalancing against an Indian resurgence or market competition will take the shape of that post war Japanese boom time based competition. Because it's hard to imagine India having any extra territorial ambitions, or at least exercising any intent in it's immediate neighbourhood along those lines.

I agree with you, I figured how it would seem when I penned that thought but I assume this will certainly be a thought among the Indian strategic thinkers, kind of like how US was preparing for a war with Britain just before WW2. We can find solace in the fact that no two democracies have gone to war or has been in a serious geopolitical rivalry in the modern era.

[V.Narayan]

INS Arighat, India's second ballistic missile nuclear powered submarine commissions today

https://www.msn.com/en-in/money/tops...d9845449&ei=10

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India...d=BingNewsSerp

https://www.msn.com/en-in/money/tops...d9845449&ei=10

INS Arighat, India's second indigenously designed and built SSBN commissions today. She is an improved version of the first of class INS Arihant and is to be followed by 2 or maybe hopefully 3 more SSBNs of the same class.

Displacement: ~6000 tonnes
Length: 111 metres
Beam: 11 metres
Speed: ~24 knots
Propulsion: Nuclear power driving a 7 blade propeller.
Armament: 12 Short range K-15 SLBMs with a range of 750 kms or 4 K-4 SLBMs {Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile}with a range of 3500 kms. + 6 533mm torpedo tubes for conventional weapons

Going by the length and beam the dived displacement is probably 8000 tonnes or more. Also 12 K-15s or 4 K-4s don't quite add up but that might be deliberate. Possibly the tubes are configured for the K-4 and carrying 12 K-4s would be the rationale thing to do.

All in all a proud day for the nation.

PS: 52 years back when we commissioned INS Nilgiri, our first home built warship, we faced very different & difficult times. My earlier post quoted below gives a little flavour. Today with India as the 5th largest economy and headed for the third spot it is difficult for young Indians to understand how hard the journey has been. Jai Hind.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

The Challenges of Indigenization on the Nilgiri Project

In today's day and age when Foreign Direct Investment flows in freely it is hard to perceive the difficulties we faced as a nation in getting basic license production of important pieces of machinery even after signing a large contract with the British Government to build 6 Leander class frigates. I am penning these down for the younger generation on Team BHP and other readers who started their careers after 1991 to learn about how things were in earlier years.

In Photo #F in the main article it is explained how the British reneged on supplying the license to assemble and (later) build the radar suite. And how the Dutch stepped in and built a long term relationship. The story did not end there. The transmission of these ships was through a David Brown Engineering gear box. Naval gear boxes are not only mechanical marvels they are also a work of art and metallurgy gearing down from 10,000 RPM steam turbine to a 150 RPM marine propeller. David Brown point blank refused to sell us the license rights for assembly and manufacture. They assumed we will have no choice but to buy it from them and also save them the bother of transferring know how to a third world country. Interestingly Walchand Nagar Industries who had a technical collaboration with a Swiss company called MAAG said 'hey our collaborators can make these transmission units, and they will sell the know-how too'. Walchandnagar were known more for production of sugar and not gearboxes - understandably the Navy was nervous as hell. But necessity is the mother of invention, and we plunged ahead on what was a high risk path. The British said we cannot guarantee the mating of your Swiss gearbox to our turbines at one end or the propeller at the other. The Swiss proved as good as their word. There were few hiccups in the trials, but they stayed the course with us and produced perfectly mated gearboxes.

Vickers, UK were the suppliers of the gun, some of the weapons, the turbines, the boilers and more. They were unduly skeptical that these ships will ever get built in a backward country like India and their Chairman said so in so many words to admiral BA Samson but Vickers were happy to sign the contract and collect the fee all the same! In fact their Managing Director Sir Issac Eric came for the final trials convinced that Nilgiri would fail them and he had kept a team of British engineers on standby with air tickets to fly down, from the UK, on this expected 'failure of final tests'. One test is to race the ship forward at full power and full speed and then suddenly switch to full aft ie reverse by reversing the turbines. This puts the ultimate strain on all the machinery and the hull and is conducted but once in a ship's lifetime in pre-commissioning tests. Fortunately, they had to cancel their tickets as the tests went off without a hitch.

We learnt a lot from the British and these anecdotes are not meant to be prejudicial, but the world was a little different back then in 1972.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Going by the length and beam the dived displacement is probably 8000 tonnes or more. Also 12 K-15s or 4 K-4s don't quite add up but that might be deliberate. Possibly the tubes are configured for the K-4 and carrying 12 K-4s would be the rationale thing to do.

All in all a proud day for the nation.

I really like what the navy did here, instead of waiting for another decade to make a vastly superior submarine, they are quickly making SSBNs with existing know how with each successive boat having incremental improvements. I assume this makes sense for SSBNs given the kind of capital assets that they are, the Navy can afford the maintenance costs of having boats of the same class quite significantly different from each other. This means, the Navy will never be left wanting for numbers in the hope of a future superlative version (ahem AMCA ahem). Also, seems to be a good decision to make 5 boats of this class, this will keep the production running if the next class of 13,500 SSBNs get delayed.

I wonder if there is a significant culture difference between the Navy and the other services that makes them more efficient at modernisation, even special forces for example, there were some comparisons (by armchair amateurs offcourse ) of how the MARCOS uses much more superior equipment as compared to the Para SF.

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Originally Posted by dragracer567

I really like what the navy did here, instead of waiting for another decade to make a vastly superior submarine, they are quickly making SSBNs with existing know how with each successive boat having incremental improvements...Also, seems to be a good decision to make 5 boats of this class, this will keep the production running if the next class of 13,500 SSBNs get delayed.

It seems in the case of the SSBN programme, there is an inherent long term thinking with a view to keeping the production lines running still. You'd think the same decision making would translate to the conventional boat build programmes.

in the hope of a future superlative version (ahem AMCA ahem)

I rarely make use of the emojis on here but for this

I wonder if there is a significant culture difference between the Navy and the other services that makes them more efficient at modernisation

It helps that they've been doing this for long enough now that thinking in terms of iterative updates and improvements is institutionalised in their thinking compared to great leaps forward that seems to be the preference for the sister services.

even special forces for example, there were some comparisons (by armchair amateurs of course ) of how the MARCOS uses much more superior equipment as compared to the Para SF.

Wasn't aware of this - but doesn't surprise me in the slightest. I wonder if having a Naval CDS might lead to them imbuing the kind of incremental thinking to decision makers in the other services. You'd like to think that any CDS won't be entrenched enough in their own services thinking that they'd forego the obvious benefits from another.

Anyway from what I can read allegedly the third boat in class is only a year away from being launched. It's a surprisingly fast cadence considering how normal programmes lurch along otherwise. I guess they have the "strategic asset" fire burning under them to hurry them along.

[dragracer567]

As usual, a very informative video by Shekhar Gupta’s Cut the clutter, some interesting points:

1) These are not directly commanded by the navy but rather by the tri-service Strategic Forces Command which takes care of India’s nuclear forces. I wonder if nuclear capable aircraft are commanded by the Strategic Forces Command as well.

2) As we discussed earlier, no need for missiles with range longer than the K4 though India might still be working on such missiles. The furthest distance is probably Beijing from the Bay of Bengal.

3) The third submarine to be inducted in Jan-Feb 2025, that’s impressively close. The navy is spitting out nuclear submarines faster than the Air Force can spit out the Tejas Mk1A!

4) High degree of involvement from the private sector - especially L&T and Tata. Really nice to see a) India trusting its private sector and b) the private sector delivering on their promise.

https://youtu.be/P5jWGxY3Kbo?si=ljLkvZ6ypz-kVOuG

Originally Posted by ads11

Anyway from what I can read allegedly the third boat in class is only a year away from being launched. It's a surprisingly fast cadence considering how normal programmes lurch along otherwise. I guess they have the "strategic asset" fire burning under them to hurry them along.

Not a year, Jan-Feb 2025 is barely 4-5 months away. Offcourse this must’ve been laid down a while back but it’s good planning to have boats being commissioned concurrently. Even the Chinese aren’t this quick! Very very impressive!

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I would bet my middle name this is already in quiet discussion at a serious level.

Sir, your middle name is safe and secure

Our suspicions have been proven correct. According to this article, the French will have discussions with India regarding support for the construction of nuclear attack submarines which will be discussed at the India-France strategic dialogue between September 30 and October 1 between National Security Advisor Ajit Doval and Macron’s diplomatic advisor Emmanuel Bonne in Paris. This is apart from 100% transfer of technology for 110 kilo-Newton thrust (possibly for the AMCA MK 2) aircraft engines and underwater drones with full capabilities to India.

Injecting French expertise would certainly expedite the SSN program. Further, it would be interesting how Indian planners consolidate the lessons learnt from the Russians and the consulting expertise provided by the French.