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Originally Posted by shortbread

The Brits are having a challenging time keeping the solitary carrier afloat.

Has the QE or PoW run into problems again? Last I remember it was QE that had some propshaft issue which meant PoW had to be sent out to exercise with the Yanks instead. Don't remember PoW having as many teething issues as her sister ship.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Hope the pricing negotiations don't drag on as with the Air Force's Rafale contract (even after the 36 aircraft deal was announced).

Glad you mentioned this. Can't help but worry given India's form in this regard. Would be good if they just got this sorted asap, means they can focus on other projects once this has been concluded.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

I guess even after the Rafales are bought, the Vikrant would still be a mix of Rafales + Mig-29ks? Since the Vikrant can hold exactly 26 fixed wing aircrafts IIRC but we can't assume that 100% of the Rafales would be available for service, right?

I imagine so. For the Vikrant for sure, given they've been doing tests with the Mig-29Ks it would seem unlikely to then have that vessel only operate the Rafale M instead. I reckon it'll be a mix of the two platforms that constitute the air wings on both carriers.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Some say the French are offering to lease 4 of their Rafale M's as an interim stop-gap measure for training & familiarization. sounds very similar to the Sepecat Jaguar deal in 1978.

This would be a practical bonus if true. Helps speed things along.

Originally Posted by directinjection

In fact, after PM Modi surprised everyone in 2015 by ordering 36 Rafales through outright purchase, the IAF had responded by saying that it could manage with a fleet size of 80, which meant ordering 44 more planes.

Interesting, this is the first I've heard of the IAF giving a lower limit of 80. I wish they'd been more vocal about it the same way they had been with the full whack 120+ order complement. 80 would've been a much more palatable number I reckon for all stakeholders to get across the line. Oh well, no point lamenting the many missed opportunities of MMRCA any further.

Out of an abundance of caution I'll still wait to hear the news from the horses mouth but all things considered this looks a done deal.

Excellent to hear about the 3 boat additional Scorpene order. Finally some pragmatism coming to the fore. Thank heavens.

[mpksuhas]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

I guess even after the Rafales are bought, the Vikrant would still be a mix of Rafales + Mig-29ks? Since the Vikrant can hold exactly 26 fixed wing aircrafts IIRC but we can't assume that 100% of the Rafales would be available for service, right?

Can Vikrant hold 26 fighters? I was of impression it was closer to a squadron strength since the mention of 26 aircraft in initial news articles during Vikrants commissioning was including hanger + flight deck.

Fully loaded, Vikrant can carry as many as 36 fighter jets; 19 on the flight deck and 17 in the hangars below.

News link.

I am assuming, its not possible to have a deck full of fighters and also have proper landing / takeoff done.

Initially when the news of 26 naval Rafales came, I was of impression that it was for mixed use along with MiG29s on Vikramadithya due to issues with the MiG's.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by mpksuhas

Can Vikrant hold 26 fighters? I was of impression it was closer to a squadron strength since the mention of 26 aircraft in initial news articles during Vikrants commissioning was including hanger + flight deck.

News link.

I am assuming, its not possible to have a deck full of fighters and also have proper landing / takeoff done. Initially when the news of 26 naval Rafales came, I was of impression that it was for mixed use along with MiG29s on Vikramadithya due to issues with the MiG's.

INS Vikrant, at conservatively, 45,000 tonnes {might be more} can carry & operate 32 to 36 aircraft at full load. The exact number will vary with mix. In a war emergency I suspect it could carry more. The old HMS Hermes, later INS Viraat, had a normal full load of 28 aircraft and in the Falklands war deployed 37 for 2 months plus. That gives some indication of what extra capacity a war emergency could mean. At a wing size of 36 it will need to carry some aircraft/helicopters on deck - risky, tough but it is done routinely most especially by the US Navy. To clarify, yes naval aviators train relentlessly to land and take off from a crowded deck. It is my uneducated guess that 18 Rafales will deploy on the carrier and the other 8 will be based in Goa for training, conversion, and maintenance reserves. Other assets that INS Vikrant will deploy will be a small squadron of the AEW Kamov Ka-31, another small squadron of the ASW MH-60R Seahawk and a flight of 2 utility helicopters. Hope this clarifies.

[dragracer567]

So apparently only 22 will be the single-seater Rafale Ms while the remaining 4 will be twin-seat trainers which won't be carrier-capable (unlike the F/A-18 Super Hornets).

I'm struggling to understand the wisdom behind the Navy operating these trainers since if I'm not mistaken, the same (non-carrier capable) versions are operated by the Air Force. Now, the Air Force could use the twin-seaters for combat like the French have done but the Navy likely won't except for strikes from land-bases - so, given the already limited numbers available for the carrier, wouldn't it have been more prudent to ensure that the full complement of 26 jets are carrier-capable Rafale Ms while the training could've been done using the identical Air Force jets?

[Gansan]

^^ That is what I read in some article, that they will procure 26 single seat Rafale M, and since the IAF already has twin seat trainers, navy too will make use of them.

But then how can the IAF version impart training for carrier landing/take off?

Probably the deal involves option to buy a few more later? Is that why current deal includes a couple of trainers?

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by Gansan

^^ That is what I read in some article, that they will procure 26 single seat Rafale M, and since the IAF already has twin seat trainers, navy too will make use of them.

But then how can the IAF version impart training for carrier landing/take off?

Probably the deal involves option to buy a few more later? Is that why current deal includes a couple of trainers?

Interesting, some of the reports seem to the contrary - link 1, link 2, link 3. I did read that the Navy will use the Air Force's training simulators though.

As with the reaper deal, the information does get muddled a bit, so I believe we'll know for sure on Bastille day!

[travancore]

credit: P.C. Chhopra / Air Enthusiast 1972











If these have perhaps been seen before, I apologize.

[dragracer567]

I think this is the first time that the leased Predator Bs have been showcased publicly.

https://youtu.be/NtELoVio8NA?si=XTrUa294r_GVfXiM

[V.Narayan]

Navy considering a second Vikrant class carrier

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news...rier-more-mpa/

Relieved to hear these positive noises that Vikrant 2 will be built or is at least being seriously considered. With the HDW Type 1500 submarine deal we willfully squandered away our worker skill capital and process experience by posturing as holier than thou over the alleged scandal. No one was indicted and only our submarine arm was punished by being denied two more Type 1500s and maybe more that could have followed.

Sensible thinking on part of the Navy and bureaucrats to nurture and build upon the experience and talent of how to build a carrier and improve upon what we have achieved.

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan

With the HDW Type 1500 submarine deal we willfully squandered away our worker skill capital and process experience by posturing as holier than thou over the alleged scandal. No one was indicted and only our submarine arm was punished by being denied two more Type 1500s and maybe more that could have followed.

I think your line (emphasis mine) hits too close to home. Nonetheless, good decision all round. Think consensus on here at least was fairly unanimous that it's better to do a Vikrant 2, especially if there's an opportunity to rectify the issues with the current Vikrant that'll become evident as it gets used (cough*THOSE DAMN ELEVATORS*cough). Plus any increased indigenised parts and components fit on this follow on Vikrant class ship could presumably be retrofit into INS Vikrant when it goes in for a deep refit/overhaul some point into it's service life.

Makes me wonder as a %, what amount of the current INS Vikrant is indigenised? I doubt they'll make the figure public anytime soon.

Did find it interesting that the arresting gear used a Russian design and supplier. Wonder if the French (provided they do their own arrestor gear) would be able to slot in to that spot if needed?

Was interesting to see the article mention plans to increase indigenous content on the Mig-29K. I can never tell if the intent is to cut their losses on the platform, by pushing for the new naval fighter deal and TEDBF programme for eg, or to soldier on with the Mig's (which is the impression I get with the above news). It seems a bit of a halfway house position to be in. I mean I don't blame the IN, given how recalcitrant procurement timelines can be, they need to make what they have at hand more serviceable given it's likely to be all they have for some time yet. Given the infamous availability rates of the Mig's and it's maintenance travails, I wonder if emphasis on the indigenisation programme for it will be for those components that most impact it when it comes to availability.

[dragracer567]

India has issued the 'Letter of Request' to France for purchasing 26 Rafale fighter jets for the Navy.

This is significant as this is the most official confirmation yet for the procurement of these jets for the Indian Navy. This article claims that the Rafale would be operated from both the Vikrant and the Vikramaditya (which I highly doubt). As discussed earlier, only 22 will be Rafale Ms operational from aircraft carriers with the rest being two-seater trainers (which seems like a waste of resources since the Air Force already operates land-based trainers which could be used for this purpose like the French probably do). India is also apparently requesting the integration of Indian missiles like the Astra, generally the configuration would apparently be similar to that of the Air Force (though I was expecting the Navy to get the F4 version). The cost is an eye-popping 5.5 Euros or about 211 million euros a pop. Offcourse, this includes other aspects as well such as the maintenance package & ground infrastructure but I was expecting this to be partially shared with the Air Force.

It really does seem like the Navy is duplicating a lot of the resources - perhaps to avoid a future turf war with the Air Force. I guess we should expect the same drama with the incoming Apaches for the Army.

If we are getting a third carrier, it does make sense to purchase more Rafale Ms off the shelf in the future (or locally assemble them if the Air Force's MRCA ever happens).

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Originally Posted by dragracer567

It really does seem like the Navy is duplicating a lot of the resources - perhaps to avoid a future turf war with the Air Force. I guess we should expect the same drama with the incoming Apaches for the Army.

Going off piste for this thread but wasn't one of the benefits of having the CDS at the top of a tri-services hierarchy to ensure these sort of internecine rivalry related inefficiencies were rooted out? It's a damn shame if the already slim capital expenditures pot is getting eaten up by each service to replicate elements they don't expect to share.

[V.Narayan]

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/i...icle-104803995

Glad to see they are serious about the 3rd carrier and are being sensible about going in for an improved Vikrant

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/i...icle-104803995

Glad to see they are serious about the 3rd carrier and are being sensible about going in for an improved Vikrant

Bit sad that the MRMR plan is getting pushed to the back burner as a result but I can understand the IN wanting to get the long lead time capital ship green flagged at the earliest opportunity. Here's hoping the MRMR gets greenlit soon though, would be a very handy force multiplier in the region. Especially if they can work up one based on the C295 as discussed on the other thread.

[skanchan95]

The last Indian Navy IL-38 flies into the sunset. INAS 315 "Winged Stallions" gets numberplated

End Of An Era: Navy's Soviet-Built Submarine Hunter To Retire Today

PANAJI: After over four decades of service to the nation, the Indian Navy's Ilyushin IL-38SD (Sea Dragon) fleet, a Cold War-era maritime patrol aircraft, is all set to fly into the sunset. The last of the Soviet-built maritime reconnaissance aircraft that is in service with the Navy will be decommissioned on Tuesday, a poignant moment for all who served with the INAS 315 squadron, nicknamed the 'Winged Stallions'.

The glorious journey of the Winged Stallions over the last four decades, clocking over 52,000 hours of operational flying, showcases the focused efforts of all stallions, especially our air technical officers and men who have worked tirelessly to keep the oldest aircraft in the Indian Navy's inventory flying and ensuring all missions are achieved," said Commander Mrinmoy Ghosh, commanding officer of the INAS 315.

The Navy said the last flight-worthy airframe (IN 307) will be retired after accumulating around 10,000 hours of flying from INS Hansa, which has been the home of the doughty squadron since its induction in 1977.

The past decade has seen frantic activity in the Indian Ocean Region and until the recent induction of the Boeing P-8I maritime reconnaissance aircraft, the IL-38SD played a critical role in keeping a watch in the region.
“Our capability to cover large areas as well as our passi ve sensor suite has ensured we remained relevant till the very last day,” said Ghosh.

Most missions flown by the squadron, such as shadowing enemy submarines and gathering electronic intelligence, remain classified. While details are hard to come by, the squadron did prove its mettle during the Maldive Crisis, Operation Pawan, Operation Swan, Operation Cactus and Operation Vijay. Aside from special missions, the Winged Stallions also provided humanitarian assistance during cyclones, with their most recent mission being during HudHud at Visakhapatnam. “Here we have a 46-year-old aircraft, fully serviceable, undertaking operational missions, delivering weapons on target and providing air logistics support to warships at sea. This is no mean feat and all of it is a testament to the persistence and commitment of all past and present Stallions who have toiled with their flesh and blood to keep this mighty beast up and running,” said Ghosh.

Ghosh says the Soviet-era aircraft has been an effective signal intelligence gathering aircraft and has the capability of delivering spares to warships that are deployed more than 2,000km from the coast.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/.../104846683.cms