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![]() | #481 |
BHPian ![]() Join Date: Aug 2019 Location: BAH / MCT
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| Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers Generally we don’t post jokes on defence threads but I couldn’t help but share the following ![]() INS Vikrant single life |
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![]() | #482 |
Senior - BHPian ![]() | Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers |
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| Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers 2 cents - Having worked with both Indian and international navies and shipyards for various warship projects, I will say that the quality of workmanship/ engineering that goes in building warships in India is the lowest that I have seen, and the lowest bidder procurement system is responsible for that. The delivery-commissioning timeline post basin trials looks hurried to meet Azadi ki Amrit Mahotsav (whatever that means), meaning the ship could not be even half ready inside given the size and number of subsystems involved (not counting combat systems and armament). Does it mean that the shipyard or the OEMs are going to stop working on the ship? No. Its business as usual, the ship could be docked for another year or five till it achieves RFO status. But on paper (and minds) we would have two aircraft carriers. |
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![]() | #484 | ||||
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| Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers Quote:
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Don't understand the reference to ballistic missiles not able to reach a carrier deployed in south east Asia. Let it pass. Quote:
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We have tiny defence budgets and technical base compared to say China, and there is always another critical area (or multiple areas if you want to splurge on carriers) that will stay compromised for decades due to this skew. | ||||
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![]() | #485 | |
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| Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers Quote:
Also in case of any war the navy can supplement the Air Force with its air wing as our Air Force has grown more and more week in past decade With declining squadron numbers, so navy is basically keeping the air wing numbers up. Still a lot of shortcomings to face but this is a commendable start ![]() | |
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![]() | #486 | |||
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| Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers Quote:
I can see where you're coming from with the much touted "carrier killing" DF-21, the highest profile of the anti-ship ballistic missiles. If the PLAN have that to hand to spook USN carriers from not braving the First Island Chain when things go hot, there's scant chance the Vikrant has against it, right? Well while I think everyone is well to treat that capability with caution, the whole premise of the DF-21 relies on extremely accurate targeting in the terminal phase of a non-stationary object. I don't think I can stress that last bit enough - the fact the PLAN is still persisting with plans to adopt the age old policy of long legged platforms like the J-20 to sneak into the air defence bubble of a CBG and then vector in anti ship cruise missiles from H-6s (for now, until they get their H-20 online), to spam the air defence network of the CBG, is pretty telling that the DF-21 might not be the single silver bullet that a lot of folks have it out to be (any Clancy readers will be familiar of the famous scene of the Backfires punching through the GIUK gap and flinging all the ASMs they could at the NATO task force, to quite devastating effect). But of course, you can counter that any US carrier group would sail with Aegis equipped destroyers in tow, your ballistic missile defense shield for the uninitiated, whereas the IN to the best of my knowledge doesn't yet have any capability in the pipeline. I know the domestic ballistic missile defence programme is ticking along for a land based shield but once that comes on stream, timeline as ever a big question mark, is it that hard to envision a follow on to expand that to the naval domain? Quote:
Besides, no one has ever denied that any carrier capability is absolutely a soft power and prestige tool. If you're going to have a bolshy administration in power that pursues a muscular policy and rhetoric, you can't be surprised that they'd sing from the rafters about tangible and highly visible symbols of power like a carrier. Most on here know fully well something like the Arihant SSBNs are far more potent symbols of power but it isn't exactly something you'd make a big show about now will you? Quote:
There's a lot that isn't right about Indian procurement and the often times infuriatingly meandering defence planning - I get that, but it feels misdirected to have this ship get your goat when there's a myriad other low hanging fruit to go at when it comes to griping about the Indian defence sector. | |||
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![]() | #487 | |||||
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| Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers Quote:
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Also, the priorities can't be if/or. If you are not able to project power atleast in the IOR, you are indirectly stifling homeland security as well. The gaps certainly need to be filled but this carrier atleast isn't an impediment to that! Last edited by dragracer567 : 4th September 2022 at 02:01. | |||||
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![]() | #488 | |
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| Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers Quote:
![]() To the extent you can, subject to professional confidentiality, please tell us about these quality shortfalls you refer to. We shall all learn. Given that except than L&T all others are PSU shipyards it is likely your observation has merit especially when compared to South Korean or American warship builders. Member Gannu_1 is also a ship builder working right now on some vessels. Maybe he can share his insights too. Given that the Godavari class frigates served their full life of 30 to 33 years and the Delhi class is going strong at 25 years the quality of work while not world class may still be just good enough. I don't know just sharing an observation. On your second & third points I agree there must be trials still to be done, integration of the air wing and there may be one or two weapon related sub-systems still to be installed or fully operationalized. But having observed naval warship building in India for 51 years now and at times at very close quarters {we won't go into those details here} my estimate is that one year of post-commissioning trials and integration lie ahead not five. This would be within the norm of the time taken for the Queen Elizabeth class and Charles de Gaulle. From a political angle too it is important to display some visibility for this ship to show intent to China. As you will know the commissioning of a capital ship from HMS Dreadnought in 1906 onwards is a function of both engineering as well as geo-politics. Azadi ka Amrit Mahotsav means "elixir of energy of independence". It is the slogan given to celebrate 75 years of India's independence from colonial rule and is for all Indians regardless of our political stripes. I do not know if you are an Indian or of another nationality hence explaining this point as you raised it. Cheers. Last edited by V.Narayan : 4th September 2022 at 08:11. | |
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![]() | #489 |
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| Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers Hi Narayan, thanks for the welcome! Hoping to learn a lot from the various discussions across this board. My experience with Indian shipyards and the Navy pales in comparison with the collective experience this forum has. To cite an anecdote (might sound trivial) of workmanship, without violation of confidentiality clauses, NDAs etc. - I was working inside the Machinery control room of a frontline warship being built at an Indian PSU. I noticed that a master clock was being fitted on the bulkhead. A bunch of guys (daily wage workers) arrived with a welding machine, the master welder took three steps back and visually marked the 'best' place to weld the clamps and went on to weld them: inconsiderate of other equipment, people and cables in its vicinity. Post lunch another fellow came and realized that the clock was fitted a little too far, but manageable. Pulled a cable from the overhead tray, connected them to the clock and went away. I don’t know if the clock ever worked because I left after couple of days. Talk about coincidences. Cut to a European shipyard, onboard a frigate under construction. I observed how the same activity could be done in a way that puts into use good engineering practices as well as value taxpayers’ money. Two guys walked into the MCR, one fitter and another supervisor from the shipyards' hull department. They spread out a drawing on the table, pulled out the measuring tapes and marked out the precise spot the where the clock would go. The fitter proceeded with drilling and fitment of the clock after securing nearby equipment with protective covering. He put back the wall panels and vacuumed the floor before leaving. Another guy came the next day, connected it, powered it up and left, not before picking up the bits and pieces of wires he had cut and cleaning the place. Now, this is what I wish one to take away from this – I said bunch of guys in the first and named the professions of the guys in the later, why? – The PSU shipyards in India try to cut down cost by sub-contracting manpower and most of the work, why? Because their own work force is the cancer that’s eating them inside out by abusing Overtime (OT). The manpower subcontractor has got to please labor unions and they need to mix and match people from all the unions. Few are taken in just for wages. They just sit around, play cards, spit gutkha all around and go home. Mind you, all these folks have total access to the ship where you have got potentially sensitive information floating all around. No background checks, nothing. These untrained folks cause serious damages to equipment that are supplied by various OEMs, and who are often forced to honor guarantees for no fault of theirs. We have been at the receiving end, many times. I am not sure if this was the case when the Godavaris and the Nilgiris (first batch) were built. My experiences are rather too recent. Thanks for clarifying about the Amrit Mahotsav part. 75 years is indeed a milestone to rejoice as well as to look back and take stock of how far the country has come (and gone back) since. |
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![]() | #490 | |
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| Re: The Indian Navy - Combat Fleet Quote:
There are different departments / organizations with no synergy. Our Famed T-90 TOT , lot of subsystems we had to work out ourselves, including the main 125mm gun. The Russians simply did not share the design of the gun assembly. Same issue with Mig-29K. The conversion of airforce designed for Airforce Mig-29 to handle Aircraft carrier landings was a big no no. Aircrafts land differently on land verses a ship. Airport landings have luxury of long runway and you touch down smoothly. Carrier Deck landings are basically controlled crashes. You slam into the deck with the same speed as you rotate and are only stopped on the ship because of the tail hook engaging one of the three arrestor wires. IN Mig29K had low availability of 18%, because of lack of spares to replace the components damaged after each landing. Imagine, of the squadron strength, having just 2 aircrafts in flying condition. All this is in the CAG reports. Did the navy not know while inducting is anybody's guess. The negotiations for Admiral Gorshkov conversion to Aircraft carrier started in later 90s, when we were at receiving end of the western world sanctions post Pokhran. We had not choice, but the Russians for an aircraft carrier. Original deal was Admiral Gorshkov was free with the Mig-29K. Now we are stuck with two lemons . | |
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![]() | #491 | |
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| Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers Quote:
The salaried workers who are actually trained, do not work much, while the bulk of work is done by untrained sub contractors without any supervision. These people slog a lot, unionized workers hardly work. Subcontractors have lot of pressure to finish work, quality be damned. Modular builds have introduced an semblance of accountability with the management, but nothing much has changed on the ground. | |
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![]() | #492 | |
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| Re: The Indian Navy - Combat Fleet Quote:
Look at it this way, for the contract to purchase 26 aircraft in which the Rafale and F-18 are competing, it actually made the most sense to purchase 26 more Mig-29ks given that the Navy has clarified upfront that further orders might not be made and the focus is on the TEDBF. The Mig-29ks actually fit in the elevators while the operational and maintenance infrastructure already exists while for the Rafale/F-18, these have to be made from scratch - that too for just 26 aircraft. This might seem anecdotal but the Navy must have some serious reservations with the Mig-29k that they would rather spend more to get western aircraft (+ associated infra) even if it's just a stop-gap than even think of getting more Mig-29ks. The Indian Navy is generally the most penny-wise of the forces given their tight budgets, so there must be a solid reason for their decision to buy western aircraft instead. As you and many others pointed out, there weren't many options for the Indian Navy back in the 90s, those were the days of hard choices that we no longer have to make. In addition, the inability to integrate domestic weapons would certainly be a deal-breaker especially since IIRC both Boeing and Dassault promise the same. | |
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| Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers |
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| Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers Quote:
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![]() | #495 |
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| Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers Another Mig-29k crashed today. Thankfully, the pilots seem to have ejected and have been rescued. The crash frequency of the Mig-29k seem to be quite high given that we only have 40-45 in our fleet and it was procured only a decade ago. I guess the F/A-18/Rafale and the TEDBF can’t come soon enough! |
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