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| Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers Quote:
Interesting news coming out of France. France announces plans for new supercarrier PANG![]() https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...d-supercarrier Quote:
75000 ton displacement (vs 42500 ton for CdG) 300 m length (vs 262 m for CdG) 80 m beam ~27 knots (c. 50 km/h) Twin K22 nuclear powerplants EMALS Airwing ~30 (mix of the future European 5th gen programme and unmanned platforms with the Rafale-M likely to also still be serving in the beginning) 2000 personnel (no specifics on if this mix includes the air wing component but it's very similar to the usual complement for the CdG on a Much bigger ship, suggesting a lot of tasks must be automated to account for the relatively lower headcount) All aimed for 2038 when CdG gets decommissioned. So it's no surprise the French are laying the groundwork already but what intrigued me is that they've clearly not pursued their own QE class derivative any further. They had designs for it from it's early stages when the QE was initially a CATOBAR flat top and the French saw an opportunity for synergy but that obviously ended when the Brits were forced to go STOVL for the QE due to budget cuts. So now the PANG looks to be a Much bigger ship than the CdG with a silhouette strikingly similar to the Ford class supercarriers of the USN, particularly the relatively petite island mounted as far back as possible. Also interesting to see the French go with the General Atomics electromagnetic catapults: Quote:
With the Chinese even braving going with EMALS for their solo effort off the bat, and not even bothering with steam cat designs (ably acquired by their formidable state sanctioned industrial espionage apparatus), steams day is done, including for the future Indian CATOBAR if that's the approach the IN takes. | |||
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| Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers
For all the theoretical talk about carriers being big and vulnerable clearly there is a serious need felt for organic air cover out at sea! Today and in the preceding few years we have 23 carriers {including helicopter carriers & dual purpose amphibious carriers} in commission outside the USN. This is the highest number since {hold your breath} 1967 when there were 22 carriers outside the USN. I have added a chart below of the comparative figures between 1967-68 and 2020. In the 2020 numbers I have excluded carriers afloat but not sailing like the Thai one. The low tide was the early 1990s to early 2000s when non-USN carrier strength fell to 11 to 12 varying with the year. Egypt is the surprise entry for 2020 with the 2 ex-Russian Mistrals which we ought to have been nimble about given our proximity to France. The only countries to have retained their fast jet capability 1967 through to 2020 are the UK, France , India and interestingly Spain. Of the 4 India is the only one that managed to retain this capability without USN support {here I am ignoring the recent limited training support on catapults} In my armchair admiral opinion we should lay the keep for one more Vikrant II aircraft carrier and get it into service by 2028. Vishal sounds like an ambitious 25 year project given Indian bureaucracy and the complexity of a 65,000 tonne vessel. |
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| Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers Quote:
Right now they have the Liaoning (Type 001) and Shandong (Type 002), both STOBAR. Type 003, their CATOBAR variant is already a fair bit through construction of the hull at least, with Type 004 plans (for a US supercarrier equivalent) floating around the internet indicating that here too they're further along than others would like (and even if they truly aren't, it's better to err on the side of caution). I think their plan is to have at least 4 but up to 6. Considering Liaoning is a training carrier, let's be honest, it'll never face the heat of battle or be sent out for anything other than posturing. The Type 003 & 004's are what pose a real threat. The PLAN are accelerating through their carrier ops development curve at alarming pace. Given how tight lipped their media is, it's unlikely armchair pundits like us would know just what cost this breakneck speed will have on their naval aviators and personnel. Coming back to the topic, we now have the JMSDF finally call their wolves in sheeps clothing, the Izumo's what they are - carriers and not the laughable "helicopter carrying destroyer". Tensions with their neighbours, both in the Korean peninsula and across the China Sea, means that now even the ROKN finds itself announcing plans for a carrier expanding from their existing Dokdo class LHD's. So it went from this neck of the woods only having the forward stationed USN 7th fleet carrier being the only flat top, to now having between four new sub types with 3 different ensigns to the USN ones operating in these waters. Anyway, the expanding blue water capability of the PLAN now gives it force projection capability that means it can venture much further out to strike airfields on the Japanese archipelago. Hence you can see the easy sell for the JMSDF for them to have their own mobile airfields. And if the JMSDF have it, then the ROKN admirals weren't far behind going to the Blue House (interchangeably having the PLAN or DPRK as their bogeyman in this case) asking for mobile airfields of their own. This brings me on to another factor that's enabled this drive, and that's the availability of the F-35B. As US allies, Japan and South Korea benefit from relatively unhindered access to the F-35B, which paves the way for STOVL carrier ops and as the RN has shown (reluctantly since the defence cuts of the 70s) that "little" carriers with VTOL fast jets (and unlike the Harriers, the F-35B's are fast jets), you can do quite a lot with STOVL carriers at a fraction of the cost of CATOBAR capability (granted there's a lot you still won't be able to do). But the idea is so attractive that the USMC has basically pivoted itself, with each new Commandant essentially changing their role from one where they spent the last two decades playing in the dust bowl settings of the ME, to now being an expeditionary force designed to fit across the Pacific, armed with their own carriers, the America's class. The latter in fact is the usual retort from the USN and Pentagon hierarchy to any proposal about having smaller USN carriers instead of an all supercarrier fleet (as mandated by Congress). With the Brits pioneering SRVL and working out how not to have the F-35B burn a hole in your deck, you're starting to mitigate some of the drawbacks of STOVL operations and getting more of an upside. Small wonder then you have admirals in the US sphere perking up at the thought of parking a small handful of these jets on a flat top of their own to give them a 'pocket' carrier capability. I wouldn't put it past the RAN to consider it given their relations with China are prickly and only going to get pricklier moving forward. With a lot of the shipbuilding for these chunky LHD's modified to light carriers being done using existing Spanish or Italian designs, you could see those two countries too fielding F-35B's as part of their naval aviation. In fact I found out the Turks planned on doing just that for their LHD TCG Anadolu (based on the Spanish Juan Carlos class) before they were booted out the JSF programme. I agree with you here, I think the prudent thing would be for India to go with a second Vikrant-type (a B spec if you will) that builds upon knowhow from the A-spec. It's certainly the pathway that has fewer massive developmental potholes, so in principle should be eminently achievable. I'd liked to have seen something like the Vishal be further along but 25 years sounds like another realistic timescale for it, if in that time, instead of getting caught up in the race to the top, the IN instead looks to strengthen it's hand in the more literal race to the bottom (I mean our subsea capability in case that metaphor didn't land). | |
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Team-BHP Support ![]() ![]() | Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers I like this line of thinking - such islands are called unsinkable aircraft carrier Quote:
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| Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers Quote:
All that being said, it's worth remembering what Old Blood and Guts, Gen Patton used to say, that "the Maginot Line (ie, fixed fortifications [sic]) is a first class case of man's monument to stupidity". At the end of the day any such unsinkable carrier is still a static target. All it would take is a volley of cruise missiles, enough to spam the area air defence on said islands, to neutralise them. And to that end, it brings me back to why the planned PLAAF long range strategic bomber programme scares me. Anyway, it's a move in the right direction - the budget as always is limited and they need to maximise what they can do with it. All India has to do is make the prospect of coercive direct military action in the IOR prohibitively costly for the CCP. That's all our primarily defensive posture really requires. | |
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Team-BHP Support ![]() ![]() | Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers Quote:
- Runway can be repaired pretty quickly after a missile/bomb attack. Eg: Syrian jets take off from Shayrat airbase hours after it was pummeled by US bombs https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a7673511.html - Fighter aircraft is stored in hardened shelters. Accurate sub-sonic cruise missiles will not be able to penetrate the shelters and damage the aircraft. Ballistic missiles are not accurate enough to hit specific targets. - Cruise/ballistic missiles are expensive ($500,000 to $1 million). Longer range missiles would be even more expensive. - An airbase is huge with multiple targets. 10 Iranian ballistic missiles could do only this damage to the Iraqi airbase during Jan 2020 attack: ![]() Last edited by SmartCat : 15th December 2020 at 19:09. | |
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| Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers Quote:
Missiles are expensive yes but I'm only going by what we've seen from US/NATO or even Russian forces in recent years. Be it submarine launched, air launched or surface ship launched, a lot of key strikes against air base targets have often involved salvos of missiles lobbed at it. It's the safety cushion of stand off weaponry I suppose - a quiver of those missiles, even if spent to little real impact, is much more palatable than the odds of risking an aerial or marine platform, crucially with its human payload so to speak, getting lost. And on the point of the long ranges Chinese missiles would be operating at, therein lies my worry again about any penetrative LO bomber platform. They're primarily building the thing to get close enough to Guam to hit that, so I would imagine the distances to any Indian installations in the IOR would be similar, and let's be honest, with likely a less formidable array of countermeasures in place than at Andersen. Mercifully for the time being this scenario is still hypothetical but the rate of progress of the PLAAF is cause for immediate concern, because once they meet that Guam checklist requirement, you could just as easily see them flexing further afield in the SCS and perhaps up to our neck of the woods. | |
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| Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers Video clip of an F-18E doing a ski jump take off at NAS Patuxent Seems Boeing India have tweeted a short clip of a Super Hornet indeed flying off the static ramp at Patuxent (iirc this is where the ground tests for the F-35B were conducted before they made their way onto the HMS QE). ![]() Can't tell much else really from this - doesn't look like a meaningful loadout if at all. I imagine the next tests would be to do just that, have a Super Hornet in a mock up of what you'd expect in terms of a regular load out take off. |
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Distinguished - BHPian ![]() | Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers Going a little bit of topic, still carriers, but not Indian. I was just reading the table comparing carriers in 1967 tot 2020. The Netherlands in 1967 still had one (1) carrier, the Karel Doorman. She was a bit of a hand me down from the British navy. We kept her till 1968 when she was handed down to the Argentines. I looked her up on Wikipedia, as it is really a bit before my time. It has been quite a while since I read up on her. I came across this little gem: Quote:
At the time she had an air wing of Grumman S2 Trackers. Twin radials, can you imagine that sound of a whole air wing Trackers, tied down, at full throttle?? The Dutch might have been horrible colonist, but we had our inventive moments too! I don’t think it would be allowed these days. ![]() Jeroen Last edited by Jeroen : 21st December 2020 at 22:33. | |
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| Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers
Some more details on this: Quote:
Quote:
Pretty wild story this no doubt. Military history abounds with wacky solutions, just a question of how many make the light of day for the rest of us. | ||
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| Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers
The F-18E is without doubt a proven and very capable machine. With the IAF buying the Rafale it would be better IMHO that the IN go for the Rafale too. I do not know about its ski jump capabilities but its power to weight ratios seem to indicate it should not be too different from a MiG-29K. Chart below shows the power loadings of the three aircraft at clean and MTOW along with wing loading clean. As we see the power loadings of the Rafale are better than the Hornet at clean TOW and but 5% worse at MTOW. I do not know if the MTOW power loadings are adequate for a ski jump take off at full weight with say a 25 knot wind over deck (being conservative). But if the Hornet can do it so can the Rafale. In fact the much superior (i.e. lower) wing loadings of the Rafale weigh in its favour for lift. Quote:
The old HNLMS Karel Doorman was a great ship. Actually the most modernized of the Colossus class in the 1960s era. She had just been modernized and refitted when a boiler fire laid her up in 1968 and was used as an excuse by politicians to sell the old lady to Argentina. I wish India had bought her then but we didn't have the money and the Americans would have scowled very hard. Last edited by V.Narayan : 22nd December 2020 at 08:53. | |
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Distinguished - BHPian ![]() ![]() | Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers Quote:
Also - I think the Rafale M doesn't have foldable wings - a key aspect for compact carriers with limited flight deck & hangar real estate. Storage would be tricky. The 29K and F18 both have this "feature". Of course the Super Hornet is a relatively larger plane in the first place. So that's that. | |
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| Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers Quote:
I got a write up on him in a family WhatsApp group that breaks down his career in greater detail. I assume the source is the same as yours, since some of the wording is identical: Beginning of Indian Naval Fleet Air Arm Rarely in the history of an Armed Force can you pinpoint a person or a date or an aircraft that marks the beginning? In the case of Indian Naval Aviation all three are possible. YN Singh was the only Indian Naval officer to train with the Royal Navy‘s Fleet Air Arm in the middle of World War II. And for 4 years he trained and flew with the Royal Navy from their carriers fighting the Germans and the Japanese shoulder to shoulder with his white British colleagues. He was the first Indian Naval aviator, the first Indian to land on a carrier, the first Indian (ever) to pilot a helicopter, the first Indian to qualify flying amphibious seaplanes and the first to command an Indian Naval Air Squadron. And for all this our beloved Indian bureaucracy wanted him to pay for his training as a pilot because it was undertaken, in the fog of war, without their approval and actually harassed him for some years!! YN Singh later rose to be a Commodore and after retirement became the Bihar chief of the Communist Party of India! Sadly he is no longer with us. Commodore YN Singh, the pioneer aviator of the Indian Navy, who retired from service in 1969 as Commodore, was in his twenty first year when he was commissioned in the Royal Indian Navy on 01 May 1943 as an Acting Sub- Lieutenant. He had already completed his training as a direct entry cadet and Midshipman at Dartmouth and had served on board a Royal Navy Cruiser, the Enterprise. Even before he was commissioned, he had applied for becoming an aviator but his application was turned down as the RIN authorities did not at that time contemplating setting up an aviation wing. His knowledge of naval aviation was thus restricted to the short air course undertaken as a part of the Sub-Lieutenants courses conducted at Lee-on-Solent. The opportunity to become a naval aviator presented itself to YN Singh under interesting circumstances. He was serving in a Royal Navy destroyer which was sunk by German bombers off the coast of North Africa, an action in which he played an effective part for which he was promptly awarded the oak leaf. On repatriation to the UK in October 1943, Singh was Mentioned in Despatches and selected by British Admiralty for flying training at St.Eugene In Quebec, Canada, because England was chock-a-block with operational commitments, along with a batch of Royal Navy and South African Navy, and later shifted to Kingston on Lake Ontario, where he flew Harvards. He then returned to Yeovilton in Somerset, England where qualified in flying Wildcats and Hellcats as an operational pilot. On January 16, 1944 he became a Lieutenant and was posted to the British Western Fleet based at Trincomalee for operational flying. The air station from where flying training sorties were launched was Patlam (later named Ratnamala) near Colombo and the aircraft Singh flew from the air station and the Royal Navy Aircraft Carrier Ameer were Hellcats. The Ameer was escort carrier with a squadron of Hellcats operating off Trincomalee where Sing had his baptism of fire and thus the first Indian to have become a naval aviator and to have taken off from and landed on an aircraft carrier, that too in actual battle conditions. In 1945 an armada of ships of the Eastern Fleet set off from Trincomalee for an invasion of occupied Burma and Singh was about to be bloodied in war when, while the ships of the Fleet were sailing across the waters east of the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, the bomb fell on Nagasaki in Japan. The fleet stopped its onward move and began circling around off the Andaman’s when there were several Kamikaze attacks on British Ships by Japanese aircraft and one of the cruisers escorting the strike force was severely damaged. Singh was involved in a dogfight with one of these aircraft while flying Hellcats and came out unscathed. Singh had been sent by the Admiralty for flying training not with the intention of initiating the creation of a Fleet Requirement Unit for the Indian Navy or for the acquisition of an aircraft carrier. His flying conversion was considered to be the first step towards developing an inter service Organisation for conducting combined operations against the Japanese in the Bay of Bengal for it was considered that a qualified naval pilot from the Royal Indian Navy would be ideally suited in an advisory capacity at the Combined Headquarters in this theater. But the time his services were available for this purpose, peace had descended on South East Asia. Unfortunately for Singh, the Naval Headquarters in India came to know of his flying training only after he had returned to India, when the authorities realised the full administrative implication of this specialization without their approval. The officer was thereafter pressured for a considerable period even after the war was over, for contributing towards the cost of his flying training, which had been duly debited to the Royal Indian Navy account by the admiralty. After Independence Singh worked at Naval Headquarters and assisted in compiling the requirements of the aviation wing for the first plans papers for independent India’s Navy under Commodore Martin St.L.Nott, Commander (later Admiral) AK Chatterjee , Lieutenant Commander (later Vice Admiral) N. Krishnan with Wing Commander (later Air Chief Marshal) P.C. Lal as the technical advisor. As mentioned earlier, at this time, the Government had accepted in principle the acquisition of as many as six aircraft carriers for the Indian Navy for which a Fleet Requirement had been sanctioned. During this period, Singh continued to fly at Palam and Amritsar but the aircraft he flew were Spitfires, MKS 8, 9 and 14 of the Indian Air Force. He was soon sent back to Yeovilton in England for a refresher course in flying followed by an instrument flying course. He then underwent a helicopter conversion course at Gosport and became the first Indian to qualify as a helicopter pilot, years before Indian Air Force deputed its first batch of pilots for helicopter training. He soon added another first to his credit by becoming the first Indian to qualify in flying an amphibious aircraft when he flew Sea Otter at Lee-on-Solent. Another important assignment for Singh was his appointment to the newly commissioned naval air station, Garuda as its first Commander (Air) and the Commanding officer of the Fleet Requirement Unit. He led the formation of Sealand Aircraft which flew past Bombay Harbour on October 10, 1953 when President Rajendra Prasad reviewed the fleet, the first such review after independence. He then landed his aircraft on water between rows of ships formed up for the Review, taxied his Sealand to the flagship Delhi, and was presented to the president and Prime Minister Jawaharlal Lal Nehru. While taking off Singh had some anxious moment caused by a Harbour craft crossing his path but managed to take off after taking suitable action. Singh later served as the Commanding Officer of Garuda and supervised the construction of the air traffic control tower and setting up the school for Naval Airmen, the Naval Air Repair Organisation the Photographic unit and the Safety Equipment Section. Before the Commissioning of the Vikrant, Singh who was senior most officer in the Navy’s aviation branch, was designated Commander (Air). He was sent to England for six weeks to study the functioning of carrier, where he joined the work up team and also supervised the completion of ship. Commodore Y.N.Singh’s name will find a pride of place in the annals of the Navy for having been the Service’s first aviator, the first carrier pilot, the first carrier pilot to undergo the baptism of fire in actual conditions and the first Indian Helicopter Pilot. Commodore Y.N.Singh’s later settled in Patna wrote on Naval Mutiny I am an Old Mutineer---- I was then in the ship Kistna at Port Blair, which was the base for 37th Minesweeping Flotilla, Captain J.T.S. Hall, RIN (Later Commander In Chief of the RIN after India’s Independence) was the MS 37. I was a Lieutenant, RIN. The Flotilla consisted of about 10 ships. I recollect vaguely. “The day the revolt broke out at Port Blair, I was supposed to take over as OOD. The national flag was already at the mast head. I refused to take over my duty at 0800 and placed under cabin arrest with sentries outside my cabin. So began the glorious Day of life –a day which proved to be full of revolutionary ardor. It was my plan to take command of the 37th M.S.Flotilla in Kistna and proceed to Bombay to join my patriotic brethren and make a common cause with them. (Further to it is not available on net) (His Son Cdr Bharat Singh, 50th Course NDA, Gold medalist, Sword holder at Midshipman time, is presently a Merchant Navy Master. His Grand Daughter is Enakshi Singh) | |
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| Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers Indian Naval Air Squadron (INAS) 310, The Cobras, is celebrating its Diamond Jubilee on 21 Mar 21. https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1706270 Indian Naval Air Squadron (INAS) 310, The Cobras, a maritime reconnaissance squadron of the Indian Navy based at Goa is celebrating its Diamond Jubilee on 21 Mar 21. Commissioned at Hyéres, France on 21 Mar 61, the squadron holds the distinction of being the most decorated unit of the Indian Navy. INAS 310 was commissioned by Nawab Ali Yavar Jung on 21 Mar 1961 in Heyres, France. The squardon was headed by Lieutenant Commander Mihir K Roy (later Vice Admiral). Vice Admiral M K Roy and Commodore RAJ Anderson, interestingly the pilots who carried out the first landing of the Alize on INS Vikrant, 60 years ago {see photo below} are among the 100 odd veterans attending the ceremony. INAS 310 has rendered yeoman service to the nation in numerous operations since 1961 and continues to carry out daily surveillance operations over the coastline. The squadron operated the carrier borne Alize aircraft until 1991 and subsequently migrated to the shore based Dornier-228 aircraft. The Do-228 are maritime recce and electronic warfare aircraft. The Breguet Alize was a carrier borne maritime reconnaissance and ASW aircraft. In 1999, Kargil war the Do-228s served in Kashmir as electronic warfare assets. In the last one year, amidst the COVID-19 pandemic, flying across the length and breadth of the nation, the aircraft of the squadron have delivered critical medical supplies, COVID test kits and transported medical teams and samples, clocking close to 1000 sorties. ![]() First ever landing of an Alize, at sea, on INS Vikrant ![]() Breguet Alize ![]() Dornier Do 228, today's ride |
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| Re: Indian Naval Aviation - Air Arm & its Carriers Chinese Type-003 begins to take shape Some regional carrier news. Looks like H I Sutton's managed to work out the rough scale from OSINT images, placing the lower hull nearly in the ball park of the Ford class. ![]() Note this is clearly only based on the lower hull as that's all we can see completed so far, but still an interesting metric. No clues as yet on the flight deck dimensions for the same reasons Quote:
No word on the exact nature of the propulsion (whether it'll be an integrated electric system or the reworked steam turbines seen on the existing PLAN carriers). Similarly no confirmation yet if the Type-003 will have EMALS, though most of the chatter agrees this will be a true flat top, especially with that much projected deck real estate. If you wish to read more: https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news...s/#prettyPhoto Personally I'm curious how quickly they'll get this one out to sea, given the much greater complexity compared to earlier surface vessels. That being said, Chinese shipyards have been pumping out giant destroyers and LHDs at a scarcely believable pace in recent years. The pessimistic take is that this massive naval shipbuilding spree is all part of the very real ambition to firmly hold on to gains made in the SCS and perhaps even some sort of action to take Taiwan in time with important anniversary milestones for the CCP. Anyway, any news on the Indian carrier front? Not seen much of the Vikrant since that tweet of her setting off for sea trials. And that's quite a few months ago. Come to think of it, staffing for civilian contractors, will it have been impacted by COVID? If so I can picture timelines being pushed back (unless those civilian contractors got special dispensation). | |
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