[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

Not starting a controversy here but FAA ratings are quite subjective to the country and their relationship with USA. Not saying India has the safest skies or something but considering the quality of aviation in SE Asia or China I wonder how planes keep aloft at all. Yet they are class 1. Forget them, recently a US carrier sent a non ETOPS aircraft on a ETOPS route to Hawai and no one including flight crew suspected they were flying the wrong aircraft. Worse FAA laughed it off. A couple of US planes icluding an airforce plane landed on a completely wrong airport, yet it was only a wink wink nod nod by FAA. Ideally they must have been degraded...

couple of thoughts: It was the ICAO audit that showed the deficiencies in the Indian system. ICAO is an international organisation, not affiliated with countries other then the odd 180-190 membership countries.

FAA merely acted upon that. As they have donen in the past with countries that did poorly. And other national/regional aviation authorities have done so in the past as well.

Not sure where you get the impression the FAA is laughing off anything?

The ETOP incident is currently under investigation. On the military plane landing on the wrong airfield, as far as I know technically the FAA doesn't have jurisdication on military planes. There is no need for them to even comply with the FARs to the best of my knowledge.

Never the less, the FAA was involved in the subsequent incident research and reporting. An elobarate article was published a few weeks ago in one of the International aviation magazines. Although this was a military aircraft it does happen to civil aircraft too and as usual FAA wanted to understand what happened and learn from this incident as well.

Jeroen

[TKMCE]

The difference between NTSB (National Transportation Safety Board) of USA/ AAIB (Air Acident Investigation Board) of UK and DGCAs accident investigation wing is this.

In case of major incidents, unless it is fatal, information is hard to come by except for a privileged few until the final investigation report comes out which may take years. Shouldn't the fare paying Indian air passenger have the right to know what is really happening?

An airline crew (Jet Airways) reportedly manage to make it on the seventth and last possible landing attempt at Trivandrum , 3 of them at the original destination Kochi after exhausting all it fuel. This is not exactly something to be brushed off like an " inadvertent additional teaspoon of sugar in your morning cup of tea". Hasn't DGCA even come out with initital findings till now and if so shouldn't the general public know about it? Soon after the Jet Airways incident, another airline (Air Asia India) diverted to HAL airport at Bangalore again citing fuel emergency. And what has really happened to that blind landing and consequent damage at Jaipur of the Air India A320 Guwahati Delhi flight after yet another fuel emergency nearly an year back?

And when we finally manage to get to read some of these incident reports after they get released (DGCA website has quite a few), some of it make for horrific reading. A Jet Airways emergency evacuation at Mumbai after a 737 aborted its taxi prior to take off due to a "suspected fire" for instance came out with the finding that there was no fire and the incident was brought about due to some of the cabin crew over reacting. Another report on an Air India Express incident on a flght enroute to Pune again showed that it was not eactly caused by "circumstances beyond your control". And the final report into the fatal crash of Air India Express at Mangalore also raises too many questions about cockpit disccipline among other things.


Are we all waiting for something major to happen before India's airlines gets it act together?. As a passenger, I sincerely hope not.

[Jeroen]

Im not sure how things are organized in India, but in the USA there is of course the FAA and the NTSB. Two very different organization. Whereas the FAA is tasked to ensure the USA aviation system is the best in the world, tthe NTSB primary function is to investigate incidents and accidents in the transportation industry. (Note that is more then only aviation).

To put it simply, in case of an accident, the NTSB also looks into whether the FAA has done a proper job in terms of legislation, enforcement etc.

I might be wrong but I get the impression the DGCA does both functions?

In general, and this is just purely my own observation I find the whole of the Indian aviation industry extremely inward focussed, providing little to no transparency and working in an ivory tower way above the general public. Very little information is shared, very little access is provided. It appears to be a very autocratic, trust me Im a pilot/controller/aviation inspector etc.

The DGCA employs a number of western consultants and I know quite a few of them. So I do get a to hear quite a bit of gossip. In Europe and in the USA I would be able to participate in regular visits to airports, aviation maintenance facilities, ATC centers, Simulators. Those visits were organized by these respective organizations on a regular basis. Here in India I have not come across anything like that. I have visited a few places, but that was because I know some people who can get me access, not because Indian ATC organizes an open day for pilots or interested parties.

There are various international excellent professional aviation forums but you will find very little on Indian carriers and or Indian aviation. It draws a blank.

India is certainly not the only country that appears to be very reluctant to talk openly about its aviation industry. But look at those other countries that behave like that. Do you want to be mentioned in the same sentence with them?

The FAA runs numerous programs to promote aviation safety. Just about every weekend across all of the USA you can participate in seminars, workshops, visit ATC centres. Similar in Europe. They maintain excellent websites with lots of information. If you mail them with any question, you will get a reply within 24 hours. I have tried contacting the DGCA several times and have yet to hear back from them.

Jeroen

[Jeroen]

Just as a few examples; I get near daily mails from the FAA, inviting me to participate in on-line seminars, live-seminars usually at some airport and or FBO, accidents reviews etc.

I have no idea what the DGCA does. Only thing I know they have yet to answer any of the e-mails I've send them.

[bejoy]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Whereas the FAA is tasked to ensure the USA aviation system is the best in the world, tthe NTSB primary function is to investigate incidents and accidents in the transportation industry. (Note that is more then only aviation).

...

I might be wrong but I get the impression the DGCA does both functions?

Airport Authority of India undertakes the task of maintaining and upgrading the ground and airspace infrastructure. Infact, the GAGAN project is initiated by AAI with the help of ISRO. So, I believe the equivalent of FAA in India is DGCA + AAI.

Regarding how transparent the system works, it is just like any other government function in India. If you need any information out of these offices, RTI is the only channel, IMO.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by bejoy

Airport Authority of India undertakes the task of maintaining and upgrading the ground and airspace infrastructure. Infact, the GAGAN project is initiated by AAI with the help of ISRO. So, I believe the equivalent of FAA in India is DGCA + AAI.



Regarding how transparent the system works, it is just like any other government function in India. If you need any information out of these offices, RTI is the only channel, IMO.

Thanks. If there is one thing the FAA has been and still is critized is they are also effectively responsible for ATC. Many believe this should be completely separate from the FAA function as legislator/enforcer of rules, wow etc. but then again, many would also agree American ATC is one of the best in the world.

[Jeroen]

The latest on the Indonesian Air Airbus 320 crash. Doesn't make for happy reading I'm afraid

http://avherald.com/h?article=47f6abc7/0028&opt=0

[Jeroen]

Some of you might remember this incident, close call between a Boeing and a Airbus at Delhi airport a little over two years ago:

http://avherald.com/h?article=49029475&opt=0

[shady_lawyer]

Jeroen- could you kindly clarify as to what the DGCA Report means that the 1st TCAS warning was only partially followed. From what I understand did the Spicejet aircraft have insufficient altitude to descend? Secondly was the 2nd TCAS warning avoidable if the Spicejet aircraft had initiated a roll immediately after the first TCAS Warning? As far as I can see this was a very very near miss which could have had a catastrophic outcome.

The less said about our flight handlers the better. I keep listening to Schipol Approach or my favorite BOS or ORD approach and those guys are like ice, except Boston John (whose recordings from the past) are absolutely hilarious

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by shady_lawyer

Jeroen- could you kindly clarify as to what the DGCA Report means that the 1st TCAS warning was only partially followed. From what I understand did the Spicejet aircraft have insufficient altitude to descend? Secondly was the 2nd TCAS warning avoidable if the Spicejet aircraft had initiated a roll immediately after the first TCAS Warning? As far as I can see this was a very very near miss which could have had a catastrophic outcome.

The less said about our flight handlers the better. I keep listening to Schipol Approach or my favorite BOS or ORD approach and those guys are like ice, except Boston John (whose recordings from the past) are absolutely hilarious

Not sure. I keep reading the bit on the TCAS messages and Im still a bit confused. One thing is for sure, initially the Indigo Airbus was too low to initiate TCAS messages. TCAS RA is disabled up to 1100 ft when Climbing. Im a little puzzeld for various reason. I thought that TCAS was typically set to TA during take off and on final. So at best you would get a warning but not an Resolution Advise which appear to be the case here. RA are always a vertical manoevre, so climb or descend, not roll.

In general, in any plane, when you are low and slow you would prefer to keep the wings horizontal. Agrressive banking can easily get you into a stall and at low altitudes that is just about always fatal. Simply put, not sufficient altitude to recover.

I am also puzzled about the Spicejet. It was very clear that the runway wasnt clear and they left it to the very last moment before initating a go around. They were told to expect a late landing clearance, but it should have been very obvious the runway wasnt clear and would not be clear for their landing. At such a moment you shouldnt wait for ATC, but take your own responsibiltiy and go-around. I know I would and I have on one occasion.

When you are on final and havent received your landing clearance any pilot will keep an extra eye on the runway to try and anticipate on what will be happening. They saw the Inidigo airbus lining up, they heard the exchange between the airbus and Tower, so they were fully aware of what was going on, still did nothing untill the very end.

As near misses go, it doesnt very often get nearer then this one. Love Boston John, still,listen to him on YouTube.

Jeroen

[Jeroen]

Took the DGCA three years to figure this one out, not a pretty story:

http://avherald.com/h?article=490cd73e&opt=0

[Jeroen]

Tragic fatal incident with an Air India Airbus:

http://avherald.com/h?article=490e9d05&opt=0

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Tragic fatal incident with an Air India Airbus:

http://avherald.com/h?article=490e9d05&opt=0

Really tragic and points out how procedures are blindly disregarded. I had a personal experience of seeing an AI flight at Pune airport with one engine running during pushback. I then wondered how casually such things are treated in India. This was six months ago and I assumed it to be a one off case. Looks like its a common affair to see APUs INOP. I thought trains and buses lack maintenance, but looks like the same attitude is shown towards aircraft too. Very shocking.

[shady_lawyer]

Originally Posted by audioholic

but looks like the same attitude is shown towards aircraft too. Very shocking.

Google VT-ANI and VT-AND brand new 787's stripped and reduced to shells by our famed Air India, the pictures will take "shocking" to a whole new level. Also the aircraft involved in the MIAL Incident is an A-319

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by audioholic

Really tragic and points out how procedures are blindly disregarded. I had a personal experience of seeing an AI flight at Pune airport with one engine running during pushback. I then wondered how casually such things are treated in India. This was six months ago and I assumed it to be a one off case. Looks like its a common affair to see APUs INOP. I thought trains and buses lack maintenance, but looks like the same attitude is shown towards aircraft too. Very shocking.

In all fairness, its not that unusual to have the APU INOP. Happens occasionally to the best carriers. The procedure to start the engines would be something along the following lines:

First engine would be started Engine Ground Pneumatic Start, followed by an Engine Crossbleed Start.

Not sure how it is done exactly on an Airbus, so the below is more the Boeing way, but I would expect the Airbus procedure to be similar, but would be happily be corrected by someone in the know on Airbus

Close the opposite isolation valve, get engine 1 going with a pneumatic start at the gate. Disconnect EXT AIR, and push back. Set the park brake, ask ground to verify the area behind the airplane is clear of equipment and personnel prior to increasing thrust on the operating No 1 engine.

Advance the No 1 Engine to 70% N3, check the duct pressure is @ 30%psi and (auto) start Engine No 2. Then Re set the closed isolation valve, and (auto)start engine 2.

Again, I’m not familiar with Airbus, but on most Boeings in order to execute the cross bleed start, you must advance the throttle of the running engine way out of idle to ensure it produces sufficient pneumatic pressure and volume so it can be used to start the other engine.

With engines in idle, very little thrust is produced, and subsequently much smaller chance of anything getting sucked in. But when the engine(s) are spooled up to higher settings it is going to get dangerous very quickly further away too!

I read many conflicting stories of what happened here. Whether they were still starting the engines, or started to taxi etc. We will know when the DGCA report gets released.

Here’s the link to the article on the aviation Herald

http://avherald.com/h?article=490e9d05&opt=0

Or PPRUNE:

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ne-mumbai.html

Have a look at this video of a guy being sucked into a jet engine (@ 2.00 min), he survives!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unXN...ature=youtu.be

On a lighter note, all sorts of stuff gets sucked into jet engines!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s85nMntRzvk