[Ashley2]

Originally Posted by v1kram

Couple of LPO 1612 (12M) buses.

Picture 1 & 2: Spare bus of SCP Transports, one of the reputed operators in West TN. Pictures Courtesy: Premkumars...

SCP has one LPO 1612 running in Tirupur - Palani route?
Is this a retired stage carriage or a newer one.

Originally Posted by madhuperiasamy

Thank you for the feedback ramzsys.
Music adjustments have always been adjusted to the liking of the crew who prefer high tones and rather low bass output despite the contrary being optimal for good music hearing where higher bass cancels out road noise and allows the mid and high range frequencies to stand out. Also the crowing of the bus tends to change the audio dynamics as audio adjustments are done in an empty bus. The Bass (two 12 inch JBL subs with Sony X plod 4 channel amps) is placed under seat while mid and tweeters are above and this furthers the distortion. Its a difficult problem to sort out.

That's lot of music and its really good to see some branded speakers in place of Takai, Taiwa :-)
Infact music definitely makes lots of difference for the passengers travelling.
I still remember my trip from Pollachi to Palani in college days - 1805(@ NPT Bus stop) Kalaimagal Transports and also 0640 SRK from Palani to Coimbatore (till NPT though I was in Dr.MCET).
Dhandapani will have more stories to tell from Udumalpet.

Originally Posted by madhuperiasamy

....Two small modifications in the brakes have solved majority of the complaints as of now. The pedal has been altered to make it more " Leyland " like (pic 1) and improved Ergonomics - Thanks to Mr Vadivelu , Senior Foreman, TASS for the solution. Wonder if Tata can make this standard in the TN Chassis.
The rollers on the S Cam brakes have been altered to a slightly larger size to decrease the amount of effort needed to brake, Ergonomics again. Switching to manual slack adjusters too. TVS Brake shoes (pic 2) are too hard grade and we may switch to softer compounds ( similar concept as F1 tyres I guess)
Tata has yet to make any pressure checks however. So if the problem recurs then we shall go in for pressure checks.

Larger roller is a good idea. It will increase the S Cam travel and so should have better braking.
Now I have 2 questions..
Are these rollers lifted from their NGT brakes?
Are all the three chassis are with NGT brakes or a mix up both?

Originally Posted by madhuperiasamy

There has been certain modification done by Tata Motors Ltd ( big thanks to Mr Deepak Santhanam from TML) to our engine as part of their modernization drive. The new recipe modification involved changing the Pistons , Rings and Nozzles (pic3). This has increased the service interval to 40,000 km..

SO the regular engine is changed to new recipe engine?
If yes, was the sump changed or with the same capacity - 18l?

Originally Posted by madhuperiasamy

TML claims to have solved the Oil thickening problem with this modification.
We have noticed an increase in the pickup. Fuel efficiency essentially remains the same.

Tata has shed precious market share in their strong hold area to Eicher after this engine oil thickening issue in BS III. I have seen cases where oil used to thick similar to grease when oil filter is removed.
From little less than 0.5% in 2010 Eicher is now near to 6% and Tata has gone down to 40% from 45% market share in the same time period. Though Eicher chassis is nowhere better than Tata but engine oil thickening and price made the difference.

[v1kram]

Originally Posted by Ashley2

SCP has one LPO 1612 running in Tirupur - Palani route?
Is this a retired stage carriage or a newer one.

Not sure of the mofussil in Tirupur - Palani route, may be Dhandapani can confirm, but the spare is built on new chassis.

[madhuperiasamy]

Originally Posted by Ashley2

Larger roller is a good idea. It will increase the S Cam travel and so should have better braking.
.
Are these rollers lifted from their NGT brakes?
Are all the three chassis are with NGT brakes or a mix up both?

SO the regular engine is changed to new recipe engine?
If yes, was the sump changed or with the same capacity - 18l?

I have seen cases where oil used to thick similar to grease when oil filter is removed.

The Larger roller has actually been lifted from Ashok Leyland .

All three chassis have the NGT brakes

The sump capacity remains the same at 15.3 litres. However the recommended oil is CI4 grade istead of CH4 used earlier.

I have heard literally the same words being used "oil used to thicken similar to grease"by some bus owners with older chassis like Lakshmi from Palladam. They claim that have been using vegetable oil to flush the engine each time they do an oil service.

[dhandapanik]

Originally Posted by Ashley2

SCP has one LPO 1612 running in Tirupur - Palani route?
Is this a retired stage carriage or a newer one.

Originally Posted by v1kram

Not sure of the mofussil in Tirupur - Palani route, may be Dhandapani can confirm, but the spare is built on new chassis.

Ashley2 / Vikram,
I dont think this is a retired bus from Tirupur-Palani route and for sure this is a new bus. It got registered in Perundurai RTO and its registration number is in the latest series. Most of the buses from SCP/PRM is AshLey and i was really surprised to see a TML bus with them.

Originally Posted by Ashley2

That's lot of music and its really good to see some branded speakers in place of Takai, Taiwa :-)
Infact music definitely makes lots of difference for the passengers travelling.
I still remember my trip from Pollachi to Palani in college days - 1805(@ NPT Bus stop) Kalaimagal Transports and also 0640 SRK from Palani to Coimbatore (till NPT though I was in Dr.MCET).
Dhandapani will have more stories to tell from Udumalpet.

Those are Golden memories. Cant forget those days. We used to board private buses particularly for the music system they have. My favorite buses in our areas are PRM Fivestar(Coimbatore-Pollachi and Palani), Balaji, Jai, SRK, Kalaimaghal and MBS Mali.

I have also used the 6.40 AM SRK from Palani once. There used to be good amount of regular passengers from our college in that bus.

BTW, PRM is the one who got the first CD player installed in the bus in Coimbatore-Pollachi route. They have even stickered "CD Capsule" in their bus. That bus was later sold to Viswadeepthi school.

During school days, we used count the number of speakers and chillers/tweeters they have in the buses. Many of the operators in our areas used to have branded speakers. We are the first to have HDD installed in our buses. I have atleast seen the total change right from the audio cassette days to the present HDD days.



Vikram,
For sure this is a new bus built on new chassis. I have mentioned the reason as well.

[Ashley2]

Originally Posted by madhuperiasamy

The Larger roller has actually been lifted from Ashok Leyland .

that's the power of these two companies in taking the rest of all competitors as jiffy. Still after so many competition these two together control close to 85% market share in Indian CV space, which is almost an impossible scenario in any international developed / developing market where there will be atleast minimum four companies fighting for pie .

I have a similar experience of using a Tata part in AL. But as you know many suppliers are common, this is possible in many cases.

[v1kram]

Originally Posted by Ashley2

SCP has one LPO 1612 running in Tirupur - Palani route?
Is this a retired stage carriage or a newer one.

Looks like they took two LPO 1612's, one for Spare permit and other for Tirupur - Palani route.
Now, as per the updates, they have sold the later along with route permit.

[Autokrat]

Originally Posted by Ashley2

Still after so many competition these two together control close to 85% market share in Indian CV space,

If you consider just the big buses, that would be over 95% I guess.

[v1kram]

Originally Posted by Autokrat

If you consider just the big buses, that would be over 95% I guess.

Yes, but of late Eicher has found it's way into some STC's and also Institutions. It may increase the presence with upcoming models.

[dr. sen]

Hello.

Sir Ashley2 / Dr. Madhu / V1kram,

Would it be possible to sum up, after a first hand experience of Working / Running both AL & TML buses, which is currently the best for
- Moffusil Areas (average running 210 to 270 km, to and fro).
- Long distance (about 700- 800 km / day.

Should one go for Tata 1512 TC or AL Lynx for the first case.

and 12M 160 / 165 HP FIP or 180 HP AL OR same configuration but with AL Viking.

Can one safely expect a 5 km / lit for the first case and around 4 in the second case.
Please advise, as we are totally confused between AL & TML. after a thorough reading of all available threads and other different posts and reviews.

Thanks in advance.

dr. sen

[v1kram]

Originally Posted by dr. sen

Hello.

Sir Ashley2 / Dr. Madhu / V1kram,

Would it be possible to sum up, after a first hand experience of Working / Running both AL & TML buses, which is currently the best for
- Moffusil Areas (average running 210 to 270 km, to and fro).
- Long distance (about 700- 800 km / day.

Should one go for Tata 1512 TC or AL Lynx for the first case.

and 12M 160 / 165 HP FIP or 180 HP AL OR same configuration but with AL Viking.

Can one safely expect a 5 km / lit for the first case and around 4 in the second case.
Please advise, as we are totally confused between AL & TML. after a thorough reading of all available threads and other different posts and reviews.

Thanks in advance.

dr. sen

dr. sen,

First of all, advance congrats on your new venture.
Could you be more specific about the application and seating capacity? inclusion of Lynx is bit confusing.
TML has considerably more niggles when compared to AL.
Since TML has 135HP as well, it offers better mileage than 160HP AL, it has been effective in Dr. Madhu's case as well.
The mofussil bus of Dr. Madhu gives an average 3.7+kmpl and approximate running per day is 350km/day, traffic on the stretch is bit high and its a two lane road.
However, the LPO 1512TC's on city/town application gives an average 4.3kmpl.
Regarding AL configuration, AshLey can guide you better.

[dr. sen]

Hello.
Thanx for the advise.

The moffusil bus would be covering a distance of 210 - 270 km/ one way, picking passengers on way, seating will be 3x2, with seating capacity of around 40-46, and the standing of another 25-35. with easy access to exit gates. Since most of the passengers on these routes are short distance travelers ( 95%, only few complete from starting to finish). These passengers hardly carry any luggage, besides personal bags or so. Hence an average weight of 60kg x 80 passengers = 4800 kg. + another 500 kg of personal baggage + body + Fuel + chassis > or = 11 tons as far as GVW goes.

Now as mentioned by Dr. Madhu, and our own rough calculation, even a 1km/ litre saving is huge if the yearly travel is 500km x 300 days / year = 1,50,000 km. / year. So an average of around 3.7km / litre gives about = 40540 liters. Where as an average of around 5 km / liter (that is why LYNX, 4 Cylinder, 120HP comes), gives = 30,000 liters. A bsaving of 10,540 liters / bus x 12 nos. = 1,26, 480 liters x average price of Diesel = Rs. 55/ liters Gives = Rs. 69, 56, 400/-.

That is for just choosing the right Bus, SIR !

Similarly the figures double in case of the bigger routes. My boys will be more than happy to share even 25% of this profit among themselves, the rest can go to improving the welfare of passengers by providing better ( like Senior Citizen concession / Student Concession / Physically challenged / Ex Army etc) and safer facilities, like ABS/ RETARDER / AIR SUSPENSION / HEAVY DUTY WIPERS ( IT RAINS CATS AND DOGS IN THIS PART OF THE COUNTRY , I.E. Assam / Bhutan / Nepal / Bengal / Sikkim Border. for 4-5 months of the year.

The idea is not to let the bus be a pension scheme for a few. I have noted down scrupulously, all the suggestions from the Veterans of TBHP.

one Stupid question. Why should the town and city running give more average than a moffusil bus, where the running is more uninterrupted, at least for 15 -20 min. unlike in city / town where there is a stoppage or there is an application of Brakes every 100 meters or so. Please Elaborate, if possible.
Thanx n Regards

dr.sen

[v1kram]

Originally Posted by dr. sen

The moffusil bus would be covering a distance of 210 - 270 km/ one way, picking passengers on way, seating will be 3x2, with seating capacity of around 40-46, and the standing of another 25-35.

For the above mentioned seating capacity, you may need to go for an longer wheel base Lynx, (AFAIK it's 4900mm). Couple of my friends operate Lynx for minibus application (seats restricted to 28 hence shorter wheelbase) and it returns an average 5.6+kmpl (less traffic routes). If it's a hill application + longer wheelbase, mileage would come down.

Originally Posted by dr. sen

Now as mentioned by Dr. Madhu.

That's one of the main reason he replaced 160HP BS3 AL with 135HP BS3 TML , also keep in mind the mileage also differs as per the driver's operating manners!!!

Originally Posted by dr. sen

That is for just choosing the right Bus, SIR !.

Other options you have is SWB TML LPO 1512's.
I hope you have considered the service backup, parts availability and mechanics (non dealer) in your/application area.

Originally Posted by dr. sen

Similarly the figures double in case of the bigger routes.

Welcome your Thoughts!!
If you feel there would be enough load on all (or atleast 60 to 70% of the trips), it's wise to go for a 12m version. If not, you can settle for 222"AL BS3 or 218"/232" TML BS3 since the procurement and operating cost for 12m is considerably high.

Originally Posted by dr. sen

one Stupid question. Why should the town and city running give more average than a moffusil bus, where the running is more uninterrupted, at least for 15 -20 min. unlike in city / town where there is a stoppage or there is an application of Brakes every 100 meters or so. Please Elaborate, if possible.

Mofussil bus route and timing is completely different. There is a bus for every minute or two on that particular route and heavy traffic on most of the stretch (40km one way) with railway crossing. Hence it would be driven to the limit (with interrupted heavy braking) on most of the occasions to keep up the timing.
Whereas the other two town application buses run in a different location where the timing between each bus is around 20 minutes and most of the stretch has average/less traffic. Though the number of stops are high, the buses are not pushed to their limit and very limited unexpected heavy brakings unlike the mofussil bus which makes the difference.

[Ashley2]

Regret for delayed reply, Dr. Sen.

Originally Posted by dr. sen

- Moffusil Areas (average running 210 to 270 km, to and fro).

Yes there are operators who run Lynx for stage carriage application in Bihar / WB / JH etc. In those areas, sales is more towards Cheetah, so they look at Lynx, as a 4 cylinder Cheetah. The aggregates of Lynx are as good as a Cheetah, but offered in a smaller bus. The mileage is better than full size Cheetah and with reduced price of more than 2 lakhs, the deal is better. You have options of 3 wheel base – 4900 (9M) /4200(8M) /3900 (7.5M) in Lynx.

The other option you have is LP1512/52 (9.5M)

Originally Posted by dr. sen

- Long distance (about 700- 800 km / day.

I understand the running kms are 700 to 800 kms two ways. In that case you can look at Viking 222” (10.8M). Unless otherwise you have high level of occupancy you need not look at 12M. Plz note between 12M and Viking there will be hardly ~60 to 70k difference in price, and all the major aggregates are common, and hence point of decision is only occupancy.
Next option is TM LPO1512/55 10.6M

In case you are running 700 to 800 kms one way, you will have to definitely go for 12M CRS variant (225 hp). This will be tad costlier but still you have considerable saving in turn around time, which will turn to your USP. This comes with air suspension / retarder as standard fitment.
No equivalent product in TM and nearest will only be LPO 1618. Between LPO 1618 and 12M CRS, you can go for 12M as it’s a better packaged all-rounder in terms of faster turn around time and mileage and comfort.

Originally Posted by dr. sen

Would it be possible to sum up, after a first hand experience of Working / Running both AL & TML buses, which is currently the best

Dr. Sen, now something important. Decision making:
There are some fine levels of difference that makes the decision favoring AL or TM.
AL has increased its market share post BS III consistently and now it stands nearly 56%. Clearly In line FIP is doing the magic here. Also as stated by V1kram, AL has lesser niggles / issues compared to TM.
In case of Tata, you can sure shot say it will be the cheapest (after discounts) among two. Say a difference of 30k will turn to savings of nearly 3.6 lks. Also they may offer cheaper spares, which need not be the case of with AL.

The one reason I am not quoting mileage of Tata is, I have seen Cummins engines performing a huge binomial curve after years of performance. Means the fuel performance drops after some 3.5 to 4 lks kms of operation considerably whereas the curve is more of a flat or with reduced gradient in case of AL - H Series engines (Good or bad).
Plz note in any engine there will be a drop after the said period, and I am speaking only about the difference in mileage.

Choose a brand/product that best fits the bill - service support / resale value / parts availability / mechanics availability / no of years of operation etc. Take a decision based on that.

As you are going for a fleet of 12 buses, I suggest you may / should have your mechanics to maintain your buses. This is the cheapest and better option. We will speak more on this once you get through the process of buying the chassis.

Originally Posted by dr. sen

Can one safely expect a 5 km / lit for the first case and around 4 in the second case.

Unfortunately there is no safe limit, as geographies vary from area to area. The definition of long distance vary between 4 lane roads in TN to ghat roads in WB / Sikkim. Similarly for city roads, its an equivalent 2 lane road in KL to smaller narrower roads in KA (Mangalore area).
City roads becomes equivalent to long distances and long distance becomes equal to ghat roads in different areas.
So check with your peers and have a target of 5% better than them- which should be achievable.

And finally my heartiest and sincere wishes for you to successfully start your transport business. More miles ahead!

[dr. sen]

Hello.

I sincerely thank all the people who have contributed to close my decision, specially, Sir Asley2, V1kram, Dr. Madhu, and also to Backseatdriver, Binaiks, Raj_5004, Kuttapan, Dhandapani, TheArun, Condor, SirAlec and many many others who can fill the whole page.

Now As per the precise advise received, from the Senior and Distinguished TBHPians, I am going to request some more information and advise on the following:

1. The TML LP/ LPO 1520 EX and one simply TML LP / LPO 1520. both BS-III. The following difference, could be made out:

1. 1520 EX, GVW being 16200 kg. with Cummins 6BT AA, 5.9 Litre Engine and is available in
a. LPO 5545 WB & 10645 Length
b. LPO 5845 WB & 11110 Length.

whereas
2. TML 1520 is a Cummins 6 BT, 5.9 Litre Engine. with GVW being 14,860 kg. and is available in
a. LPO 5545 WB & 10645 Length
b. LP 5895 WB & 10615 Length.

So a longer wheel base but with less Over Hang, with more or less Same Length ( only 30mm Less), which has been talked about by V1kram, (" If not, you can settle for 222"AL BS3 or 218"/232" TML BS3 since the procurement and operating cost for 12m is considerably high.")

Now, which is a more Standard and Better Version, A Less Overhang (LP) or More Overhang (LPO). with same length, changing, ONLY the Wheel Base.

Going by Dynamics of Vehicle Design, A wider / Longer Wheel Base and a shorter Overhang is better than the other with same length (LPO) specified above. Please correct me if Wrong.

So which 10.6M should be chosen. The LP has a 210 mm more of Rear Overhang. Is it going to cause more Body Roll and hence Tyre Wear. or in a straight line braking, the LPO with about 570mm more overhang, will have more heaving in the front due to the overhang, and hence more Tyre wearout. (Please do recall the SUV designed by Mahindras (Scorpio) and Tata (Sumo), which had excessive Tyre Wear, due to heaving and undulations, while braking.

Also my queries put to AL & TML, regarding why a 12M should be more prone to maintenance, when all ingredients are more or less are same. for example-

TML - 1620, with Cummins 6BT AA, 5.9 Litre Engine and GVW -1600 KG; and is available in
a. LPO 6200 WB & 11850 Length. with 2250 Front Overhang & 3400 Rear Overhang. and Width Being 2434mm ! (Amazing, isnt it), Less than all 10.6 / 9.8 / 8.8 meters etc, which are 2560mm wide.

Mind You, the Rear overhang in this 12M bus is more or less equal to a 10.6m (only 75 mm more) TML bus; and is less than a 11.11M (110mm more ) TML Bus.

So Sirs, Can I conclude, that its the front overhang, which actually causes the most problem, ( pls. refer the sumo and scorpio example, mentioned earlier. ) and not the rear overhang or the wheel base.

Pls. Advise. A similar query with Viking 222" and 12M AL has been raised in the thread by Sir, Ashley2 (Ashok Leyland Viking).

Cheers.

Regards
dr. sen

[v1kram]

Originally Posted by dr. sen

Now, which is a more Standard and Better Version, A Less Overhang (LP) or More Overhang (LPO). with same length, changing, ONLY the Wheel Base.

Going by Dynamics of Vehicle Design, A wider / Longer Wheel Base and a shorter Overhang is better than the other with same length (LPO) specified above. Please correct me if Wrong.

I hope you meant 1512 & 1612 series and not 1520/1620.
Longer wheelbase + Shorter over hang = higher turning circle diameter (TCD) and vice versa.
Example is between 5545WB (10645mm) having 20830mm TCD whereas 5895WB (10615mm) has TCD of 22900mm.
LPO version is now getting common with private operators in TN and also TNSTC opted for few LPO versions (AFAIK for the first time).
But majority of TML buses with TNSTC and KeSRTC (apart from 12M) are LP versions.

In 12M versions, some of the aggregates are heavy duty type and also the vehicle weight would be on the higher side which would result in lesser tyre mileage.
It cannot be termed as 12M versions are more prone to maintenance, it's actually the higher maintenance cost.